Balanced Ancient Era Start

Dancing Hoskuld

Dancing Hoskuld

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Joined
Jul 5, 2004
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Canberra, Australia
It has been requested that we do something for people who want to skip the Prehistoric era. I think we should make a start on this for v27 especially as the majority of what needs to be done is just putting a value in an XML tag that already exists

This means looking into what buildings would be free to cities when built with this option on and looking at what units should be given free to start.

Free means only if the requirements are met.

I started a game in the Ancient Era and looked at what I could build in cities, I placed a number of cities around but none on resources to see what was available. This is the list.

Bark Gatherer, Barter Hut, Berry Bushes, Bug Catcher, Child Birthing Hut, Clay Pit, Counter's Hut, Dog Breeder, Earth Wall, Fighting Pit, Hunting Instruction, Juggler's Booth, Knowledge Inheritance, Lookout Post, Lumber Camp, Native Culture, Nut Cracking Stone, Percussion Instrument Maker, Playing Fields, Rock Gatherer, Root Tubers, Sand Pit (Beach), Sand Pit (Desert), Seaweed Farm, Seed Camp, Sentry Post, Storage Pit, Tar Pit, Trails, Tumulus, Wild Herbs and Wild Mushrooms​

If a city is built on a resource it gets extra buildings available

On top of that there are the herd and myth buildings that can only be built by subdued animals.

I suggest that the Free First Order Buildings be

Bark Gatherer, Berry Bushes, Bug Catcher, Child Birthing Hut, Clay Pit, Counter's Hut, Dog Breeder, Hunting Instruction, Knowledge Inheritance, Lumber Camp, Native Culture, Nut Cracking Stone, Percussion Instrument Maker, Rock Gatherer, Root Tubers, Sand Pit (Beach), Sand Pit (Desert), Seed Camp, Storage Pit, Tar Pit, Trails, Tumulus, Wild Herbs and Wild Mushrooms​

Once we agree on the list of first order buildings then we need to look at what ones they permit and see if any of them should also be free.

Myth buildings - most of these are expired except for the ones that allow other buildings or reduce the cost of other buildings. Some are also specific to regions of the planet. Free ones should be:- All except Bull, Dear, Dragon, Giraffe, Mammoth, Phoenix, Unicorn, Zebra. The following should be free in the first city built only Dragon, Phoenix, Unicorn.

Other animal buildings :- Animal Totem, Feather Worker, Governor's Pets and Menagerie, Kennels, Master Hunter, Naval Standard, Shell Worker, Snake Pit, (Snake Charmer). All should be free except Feather Worker and Shell Worker which should be free only in the, first city built only.

Herds - these are biosphere dependent so I suggest that a free subdued animal be given for each spawning resource (horses from horses etc) in a 20 plot area on the one landmass.
 
Those look like some good ideas, I would point out a couple of issues that would need addressing before we implement this (and yes, I do want this implemented soon).

  1. Myths do not go obsolete at the start of the Ancient Era, the go obsolete at Writing. Which is almost in the classical era. So you should have myths available (which would be actually fixed by your idea of giving a free Subdued Animal for stuff in the vicinity.)
  2. I personally have three cities by the end of the Prehistoric Era, and if I didn't use CLs I could probably have four no problem. So starting people with 2 cities (the second one would be far less developed than the first) may not be a bad idea.
  3. The AI would need to be able to understand how to properly start with this extra stuff (IDK if it would handle it well currently, that would be a question for Koshling).

It would also probably require some SDK work to implement, so it's no easy project. A good idea though, as it would also facilitate people who would like to jump straight to Multi-Maps when we implement them.
 
Actually, I think Python could handle it all.

But it would do so in a way that would be a bit harder to update as buildings change. Nevertheless, I would say the work in the sdk would be... not entirely necessary at the moment.

In general I like this concept. If they simply started with an extra free Tribe/Settler (whatever is 'up to date'), and make only the first city get all these autobuilds, that'd suffice for the second city.

Then again, even that might not be necessary as we could view an Ancient start as picking up after a major catastrophe (like the Flood perhaps?)
 
Please note I am not suggesting that is not already possible in vanilla BtS and is implemented for later starts in that game. I think it is all done in XML but I am not sure where exceot for the era free cities tag on the Buildings Infos file.

ls612 said:
Those look like some good ideas, I would point out a couple of issues that would need addressing before we implement this (and yes, I do want this implemented soon).

  1. Myths do not go obsolete at the start of the Ancient Era, the go obsolete at Writing. Which is almost in the classical era. So you should have myths available (which would be actually fixed by your idea of giving a free Subdued Animal for stuff in the vicinity.)
  2. I personally have three cities by the end of the Prehistoric Era, and if I didn't use CLs I could probably have four no problem. So starting people with 2 cities (the second one would be far less developed than the first) may not be a bad idea.
  3. The AI would need to be able to understand how to properly start with this extra stuff (IDK if it would handle it well currently, that would be a question for Koshling).

It would also probably require some SDK work to implement, so it's no easy project. A good idea though, as it would also facilitate people who would like to jump straight to Multi-Maps when we implement them.
Click to expand...

Most myths don't go obsolete! Almost all don't loose their :science: bonus at writing any more. Some provide boosts to buildings way after they loose their :science: bonus. I changed when they loose their :science: boost in v25-26. Recently I also went through and obsoleted those which don't provide "stuff" after they loose their :science: boost. So it is in current v26 SVN for v27 release.

Almost all of it can be done in the XML since it is just what is in vanilla for people who only want to lay latter eras. In vanilla if you start in later eras you get extra cities, roads and other stuff, not a lot or even as much as you would have built but some.

What I am talking about above is what you get in all cities you build if you start in ancient. I was going to suggest that your capital start slightly more advanced. Which is where the second most of the second order buildings will come in.:) I was also going t suggest that if you are playing a normal game from the start that you get some of these buildings free when building a city - similar to what the colonist does but for the settler.

Yes we need to also look at the unit selection and the number of cities. That may require python but it may also be possible in XML. I too would give an extra city, linked in plus a couple or 6 gatherers along with the defender unit in each city and a couple of recon/hunter units.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
What I am talking about above is what you get in all cities you build if you start in ancient. I was going to suggest that your capital start slightly more advanced. Which is where the second most of the second order buildings will come in.:) I was also going t suggest that if you are playing a normal game from the start that you get some of these buildings free when building a city - similar to what the colonist does but for the settler.
Click to expand...
Best use the NewCityFree expression tag for free buildings based on tech regardless of the starting era.
 
AIAndy said:
Best use the NewCityFree expression tag for free buildings based on tech regardless of the starting era.
Click to expand...

There is already a tag to do this so why use a new one?
Code: 
			<FreeStartEra>NONE</FreeStartEra>
			<MaxStartEra>NONE</MaxStartEra>

Just asking - I have my suspicions. ;)
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
There is already a tag to do this so why use a new one?
Code: 
			<FreeStartEra>NONE</FreeStartEra>
			<MaxStartEra>NONE</MaxStartEra>

Just asking - I have my suspicions. ;)
Click to expand...
Those are for when you want the building in a new city only if the player started in that era.
NewCityFree does not care for starting era, it is meant for those you want free in new cities in general after you reach a certain tech (or some other condition).
For instance you could have a building that is first buildable at tech X but at the later tech Y you get it for free in new cities.
 
AIAndy said:
Those are for when you want the building in a new city only if the player started in that era.
Click to expand...

Which is what we are talking about. That and what extra buildings your first city get in such a start.

AIAndy said:
NewCityFree does not care for starting era, it is meant for those you want free in new cities in general after you reach a certain tech (or some other condition).
For instance you could have a building that is first buildable at tech X but at the later tech Y you get it for free in new cities.
Click to expand...

When we have what buildings should be free for start eras settled we can move onto what buildings do you get free when you build them which is a much more time consuming discussion.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
When we have what buildings should be free for start eras settled we can move onto what buildings do you get free when you build them which is a much more time consuming discussion.
Click to expand...
Good point. I can see a difference (mostly myth buildings and such) between what you'd want the player to be able to get free on starting in an advanced era and what you'd want new cities to get for free upon reaching particular eras.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Good point. I can see a difference (mostly myth buildings and such) between what you'd want the player to be able to get free on starting in an advanced era and what you'd want new cities to get for free upon reaching particular eras.
Click to expand...

You/we mean technologies not eras for the last word in your comment.
 
Hydromancerx said:
I would like to also note that many of the buildings listed in the first post go obsolete within a tech or 2 of sedentary lifestyle such as Berry Bushes at Agriculture.
Click to expand...

So? Even more reason that they are free. That way the player (and AI) does not waste turns building them. Since these are yours you will need to add (or update) the tags.

Buildings are:-
Bark Gatherer, Berry Bushes, Bug Catcher, Child Birthing Hut, Clay Pit, Counter's Hut, Dog Breeder, Hunting Instruction, Knowledge Inheritance, Lumber Camp, Native Culture, Nut Cracking Stone, Percussion Instrument Maker, Rock Gatherer, Root Tubers, Sand Pit (Beach), Sand Pit (Desert), Seed Camp, Storage Pit, Tar Pit, Trails, Tumulus, Wild Herbs and Wild Mushrooms​

Tags are change <FreeStartEra>NONE</FreeStartEra> to <FreeStartEra>ERA_ANCIENT</FreeStartEra> no need to change the <MaxStartEra> if the buildings go obsolete.

I have already done most of the Myth buildings so I just need to finish them and do the extra animal buildings.

Once that is done I will look at the second order buildings and the buildings that will be available if you start on a resource as some of those should be free also.

It is from those second order that we will need to decide which are in the capital and not the extra cities. That may need python to do but as I said as far as I know it should all be in the XML somewhere since it is extra cities and start units for start in later eras is done in vanilla BtS.
 
@Dancing Hoskuld

1. Ok I changed ....

Bark Gatherer, Berry Bushes, Bug Catcher, Child Birthing Hut, Clay Pit, Counter's Hut, Dog Breeder, Knowledge Inheritance, Lumber Camp, Native Culture, Nut Cracking Stone, Percussion Instrument Maker, Rock Gatherer, Root Tubers, Sand Pit (Beach), Sand Pit (Desert), Seed Camp, Storage Pit, Trails, Wild Herbs and Wild Mushrooms

2. Hunting Instruction and Tumulus I think is in the core so I will have to change it there.

3. I disagree with the Tar Pit since it requires it in the city vicinity. Also to a lesser extent the Sand Pits but I added those anyways.
 
On that minor side point about Tar Pits, you reminded me... I REALLY hate that its an impassable terrain. For one thing, I can't stand impassable terrains because I don't believe there ARE impassable terrains on Earth (not that tech can't eventually manage to explore). But for another, the La Brea Tar Pits are in the middle of the friggin' city for cryin' out loud! I'd love it if it had an effect to paralyze a unit there for a round perhaps, but impassable is kinda... I dunno... not realistic imo. I also liked it better when it was a workable terrain with added production value.
 
Hydromancerx said:
@Dancing Hoskuld

1. Ok I changed ....

Bark Gatherer, Berry Bushes, Bug Catcher, Child Birthing Hut, Clay Pit, Counter's Hut, Dog Breeder, Knowledge Inheritance, Lumber Camp, Native Culture, Nut Cracking Stone, Percussion Instrument Maker, Rock Gatherer, Root Tubers, Sand Pit (Beach), Sand Pit (Desert), Seed Camp, Storage Pit, Trails, Wild Herbs and Wild Mushrooms

2. Hunting Instruction and Tumulus I think is in the core so I will have to change it there.

3. I disagree with the Tar Pit since it requires it in the city vicinity. Also to a lesser extent the Sand Pits but I added those anyways.
Click to expand...

If they require a feature/resource in the city vicinity and they don't then wont get one even if they are free (in theory).
 
Hydromancerx said:
You sure? Or are we gong to get a whole bunch of cities not even near the desert having a free Sand Pit (Desert)?
Click to expand...

Try a start as ancient game and see what you get. ;) It is supposed to take resources into consideration but you may be right about vicinity since that is a C2C concept inherited from RoM:AND.
 
If it doesn't do the necessary prereq before auto assigning the building based on this tag, we can fix that. It really should make that check anyhow so it'd be good to test it to find out if it needs to be addressed.
 
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