Reforms of Pyotr the Great

Pavel Chichikov

Pavel Chichikov

King
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
674
Just want to say I'm putting ideas out, not impatiently demanding anything.
I've said some things about Russian games being fairly uneventful by European standards, with all the Religious and Colonialist events they get to play with, here's one for them.


Instead of the Orthodox 'Holy-City' (
Spoiler :
technically Constantinople has taken on that mantle Rome did, more being just the administrative center, but of course gameplay>complete historical-ness)
changing to whichever Orthodox Civ is the most powerful, I put this ahead:

When/if Greece dies, the Russian player gets option to institute Pyotr's Church reforms, either:
- Institute Reforms:[/I]Orthodox Holy City changes to Moskva, with a Shrine [Saint. Basils? ..Spy-Wonder changed to Okhrana?] automatically built the following turn. Hagia -Sophia retains only cultural and GP effects.
However this would come at the cost of a lengthy period of unhappiness/1-turn of anarchy (Old Believers).
- No, the Old Ways ways are best: - 'Triumph of old values' or some such: free Orthodox Monastery built in every city, Cathedral in Capital.


Westernization:Picked up from someone talking about this concept in relation to non-European Civs in general, still the same general idea:

Institute Reforms: Large research bonus, at cost of unhappiness/instability/other. Of course Russia's prior-science-rate would have to be lowered.
- No, the Old Ways ways are best: 'Triumph of reactionary forces' give an modest espionage bonus, with no penalties.

Misc.
I have mentioned this before about State-Religion-only buildings, but Russia could really do with some sort of 'Ikonographer school' which would give 1-artist slot. Alternately an Orthodox incarnation of the Great Sphinx wonder, obsolete with patronage. For settling such a vast core-area, Russian culture is horrible. Ditto Greek vs. Turk/Arabic culture.
 
I have to disagree with you on Russian culture, their culture usually swamps Europe and Asia, and it helps that they take up a gigantic portion of the map.
I'm not an expert on Orthodox Christianity, but does modern day Moscow have more religious influence than Istanbul? I mean, I imagine Hagia Sophia is still big.

I like the idea of the Institute Reforms; it is kind of like the vanilla events that let you change the course of history. It is more fun!
 
All of the Orthodox Countries have an Autocephalous Church now. Though Istanbul will always remain as a reminder to what once was, it no longer really holds significance. I assure you, Moscow was never a center of orthodoxy for people outside of Russia.
 
Any Orthodox Holy City switch is a bad idea. Two historical reasons, two gameplay:

Historical:
From what I know (pardon me if I am wrong), Orthodoxy as the version in game has always been more of a religion of the state. That essentially means that it is wrong to give a money bonus to any Holy City shrine for pilgrimage, especially a relatively new city for a relatively old religion. It would make Russia artificially wealthy compared to other European nations, as they never used their riches in diplomacy.

Constantinople's shrine money is good for a city that would otherwise not bee very rich. It is good to represent the need for trade going through the city, even when controlled by the Turks.

Gameplay:
Russia doesn't need more culture. I see it get Kiev more often by culture flip than by conquest. Usually they have Mongol problems. If they overcome those, they usually are by far the most powerful in Europe.

In the same way, Russia doesn't need more money, and therefore research. I will see a Russia that does not get killed by Mongols about half the time, and they are hard to beat, militarily, ad tech-wise.
 
Neither was that true as all Balkan Orthodox Churches achieved Autocephality before Russia itself. (Except Romania) Russia only achieved it in 1589 making it the last major church to achieve the independence.
 
Royal Tenenbaum said:
I have to disagree with you on Russian culture, their culture usually swamps Europe and Asia, and it helps that they take up a gigantic portion of the map.
I'm not an expert on Orthodox Christianity, but does modern day Moscow have more religious influence than Istanbul? I mean, I imagine Hagia Sophia is still big.

I like the idea of the Institute Reforms; it is kind of like the vanilla events that let you change the course of history. It is more fun!
Click to expand...

I believe when the Turks took Istanbul they converted Hagia Sophia into a Islamic mosque and now days it is a museum. So really when Ottoman Turks take Istanbul then Athens or Moscow should become the Orthodox holy city with a new Holy city building or something and Hagia Sophia should just become a redundant wonder (such as the Pyramids) or give a bonus to Islam to fit with history.
 
Well point is, if I had to think of an Orthodox holy city, it would be Constantinople or Jerusalem. We don't need to introduce a mechanic just for Orthodoxy. Constantinople is still "first among equals" meaning that it is the most important of the Patriarchates even though the Turks converted Hagia Sophia into a mosque.
 
Pavel, I like your idea and it allows for a more historical situation because in reality Moscow became one of the largest centers for orthodoxxy some time after Constantinoples collapse and for russia there was a big deal for moscow being third rome, hence its got so many grand cathedrals not just in moscow, but throughtout the whole country.

But as someone mentioned, russia already feels very powerful in every way and its culture is quiete easy to establish (orthodoxy spreads quiete fast)
 
Catholicism was arguably the world's most influential religion plus the Pope is so integral that without it in game, it would be just plain stupid.
 
The Apostolic Palace more represents the establishment of the Pope and Catholicism splitting from the general Christian religion. The Pope being the center of the Catholic religion, it makes sense to change the Holy City. It also represents how large an influence the Papacy had on European Politics.

I don't see Russia having the same influence based on religion, but rather military.
 
Hippo8085 said:
The Apostolic Palace more represents the establishment of the Pope and Catholicism splitting from the general Christian religion. The Pope being the center of the Catholic religion, it makes sense to change the Holy City. It also represents how large an influence the Papacy had on European Politics.

I don't see Russia having the same influence based on religion, but rather military.
Click to expand...

thats because most of us, including myself, come from Western oriented societies, even if we live not in the west. Orthodoxy failed to spread its idea and importance to us, while catholicism didnt. The classical and modern books and literature most of us read, including the western oriented history books, all indicate importance of catholocism and not orthodoxy. So ofcourse we all think that catholicism>orthodoxy because we simply dont know about the latter but only the former
Most (western) historical facts and events do indeed point out that supposedly Catholicism>Orthodoxy, but I dont think this relates to what Pavel was suggesting.
He was just suggesting a minor even, of which I think we have not enough in this game in general. His event is no way of saying that Orthodoxy is more important than something else. The way I see it, is Pavel is quiete a historian and used his knowledge on Russia's history(of which few of us have) to propose a minor event to give a player more choice and flavor
 
artyom said:
thats because most of us, including myself, come from Western oriented societies, even if we live not in the west. Orthodoxy failed to spread its idea and importance to us, while catholicism didnt. The classical and modern books and literature most of us read, including the western oriented history books, all indicate importance of catholocism and not orthodoxy. So ofcourse we all think that catholicism>orthodoxy because we simply dont know about the latter but only the former
Most (western) historical facts and events do indeed point out that supposedly Catholicism>Orthodoxy, but I dont think this relates to what Pavel was suggesting.
He was just suggesting a minor even, of which I think we have not enough in this game in general. His event is no way of saying that Orthodoxy is more important than something else. The way I see it, is Pavel is quiete a historian and used his knowledge on Russia's history(of which few of us have) to propose a minor event to give a player more choice and flavor
Click to expand...

But as I stated, Constantinople remained the Head of the Orthodox church even after the 1453 conquering by the Turks, while Russia only acheived autocephaly in 1589. Russian in no way represented Orthodoxy as a whole but only (politically) Russian Orthodoxy. No one else acknowledged Moskva's Orthodox political power other than Russia herself. The Greek Orthodox church was even allowed to continue under the Turks so they were in no way relegated to a horrible sub par status but rather survived albeit being ruled by a Muslim Empire for 500 years. It would not be historical or logical to make Moscow an Orthodox Holy City even taking in to account Czar Pyotr's Reforms.
Also how come it's only Russians advocating this holy city change? (No offence meant)
 
artyom said:
Most (western) historical facts and events do indeed point out that supposedly Catholicism>Orthodoxy, but I dont think this relates to what Pavel was suggesting.
Click to expand...

I am curious where you got the Catholicism>Orthodoxy out of my post. I was responding to his comparison of the Apostolic Palace to what his Orthodox event is meant to be.

I said that Orthodoxy did not have as great an impact in the long run on the whole of European history, which is true unless you go by land area. :lol:

Russia's influence was more with politics than religion or economics, which an Orthodox holy city or a religious event just for them would indicate.

Oh, and I am not very Russian, only somewhat.
 
I think what people need to realize is that there are two main denomination of the Orthodox church the Greek Orthodox (old Constantinople) and the Russian/Eastern Orthodox church. Both have very different ideas and beliefs. Now arguable in the Greek Orthodox church, Constantinople was the centre of the religion. Where the centre of the Russian Orthodox Church was Moscow or really which city in Russia had the greatest cathedral at the time.
Another thing about Orthodoxy is that they have been very passive over the years ever since the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Russia and to an extent Greece, has never really waged 'Holy Wars'. Religion was just a part of the society not ruled by it.
So really I would argue that Athens should become the Holy City if there is to be a change not Moscow, but really a change is not really necessary as it is most likely the reason that the Orthodox Church is so passive is because of the loss of its Holy City to the Turks.
As a final note, this switch is needed just about as much as the Church of England need to be added into the game. ie, not necessary
 
banestrider said:
I think what people need to realize is that there are two main denomination of the Orthodox church the Greek Orthodox (old Constantinople) and the Russian/Eastern Orthodox church. Both have very different ideas and beliefs. Now arguable in the Greek Orthodox church, Constantinople was the centre of the religion. Where the centre of the Russian Orthodox Church was Moscow or really which city in Russia had the greatest cathedral at the time.
Another thing about Orthodoxy is that they have been very passive over the years ever since the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Russia and to an extent Greece, has never really waged 'Holy Wars'. Religion was just a part of the society not ruled by it.
So really I would argue that Athens should become the Holy City if there is to be a change not Moscow, but really a change is not really necessary as it is most likely the reason that the Orthodox Church is so passive is because of the loss of its Holy City to the Turks.
As a final note, this switch is needed just about as much as the Church of England need to be added into the game. ie, not necessary
Click to expand...

Exactly. Though don't Russians still recognize the Patriarchate of Constantinople?
 
alpav said:
don't Russians still recognize the Patriarchate of Constantinople?
Click to expand...

I dont think so. I do not ever recall reading or hearing the words "patriarche of constatinople" its always been "moscow patriarche".

Iam not in any way educated on this part of history, but I find it very hard to believe that Russia had any kind of connection with Constantinople after its fall to the turks
 
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