Nobles' Club CIX: Louis XIV of France

dalamb

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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Louis XIV of France, whom we last played in NC LXIV; we last played the French under Napoleon in NC XC. The French start with Agriculture and The Wheel.
  • Traits: Louis is Creative and Industrious.
  • The UB: The Salon, an Observatory that gives one free artist.

  • The UU: The Musketeer, a Musketman with Move 2 instead of 1.
And the start:

Spoiler map details :
2 continents, normal parameters, some chosen AIs.
Spoiler edits :
Regenerated several times to get a leader with a decent agricultural start and a map that actually looked somewhat like continents instead of various weird things that showed up in many of the maps. Extended the river 1S to irrigate the corn 1SE. Swapped AIs around to put 3 religious leaders on the other continent, as discussed in the bullpen.
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 109 Louis Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

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I will move the warrior 1SW or 1NW, but unless that reveals something great I will SIP. Hopefully I will have time to play tomorrow. Thanks dalamb
 
I'm damn tempted to settle on the sugar here. Don't miss a turn, get a Worker out good and early, tech BW to start chopping whatever. That might be a little production-poor long-term, but it'll still make a powerful GP farm.

I'll give this a try and shoot for the seemingly suggested cultural win, possibly after subjugating the neighbors.
 
Spoiler :

Wow, what an amount of land. I'm at 625BC and about to settle my 9th city. 8 of them are good cities, too (one is without a food source but it's working a couple of capital cottages). If I tried, I could get 12 nice cities by 1AD and still have room for more.

I'm playing this on Immortal. I don't know how a map like this would play on Deity, could be tough.
 
I'm in. Louis used to be my favourite, and still ranks up there. Going for Cultural Victory this time, no question about it.

EDIT: Game won. Monarch, Cultural Victory, ~AD 1850

Spoiler :

I forgot to take screens during the game, but here are three from the end:



The northern half of the empire - Djenne was a recently flipped city. Orleans up there was one Legendary city, Paris was another



The southern half, featuring the third Legendary city, Rheims.



Victory! Not a bad score for a Culture game.


MesSer told me in another thread that I needed to expand earlier, so I took his advice to heart. There was some great land to exploit in this one. My three Culture cities ended up being Paris, Orleans, which I founded just south of Mansa by some Gold, Pigs, and flood plains, and Rheims, which I founded just north of Pericles, with some Horses, Pigs, Corn, and four Gold - yes, it's a bit of a way from Paris but as soon as I scouted that territory, I knew that I had to have it. I ended up stopping at 6 cities, which is, IMHO, the "magic number" for Cultural Victory. 9 is even better, but my economy was strained enough that it wasn't feasible.

I had 4 cities by BC 1000, which is a first for me. Unfortunately that was hard on my economy so I was running at 50% science for quite a while. Fortunately it wasn't anything that a few Great Scientists couldn't solve - Mansa Musa is always a great teching buddy, and when we found the other continent, we discovered that we were lightyears ahead of them in technology.

Speaking of tech, my research strategy was simple - Beeline Lib, making a quick pit stop for Music to get that free Great Artist, the all-important Sistine Chapel, and the simply indispensable cathedrals (Music is a must-get tech for any culture game). I Libbed Nationalism (Taj Mahal good, Hermitage better) and bulbed Printing Press, then killed my science and put my culture slider between 60 and 80, depending on circumstances.

Diplomacy went surprisingly well. Mansa founded Confucianism and spread it to myself and Pericles, so we spent the whole game being all buddy-buddy. In fact, as far as I'm aware, there wasn't a single war during the course of the entire game - then again, none of the AI were terribly aggressive leaders, IIRC, and I'm a huge peacemonger.

Game strategy was simple: Take advantage of that IND to grab as many wonders as was appropriate while rushing towards Free Speech and building as many cathedrals as possible. Caste System and Pacifism are also critical civic choices. Along the way, I picked up: Pyramids (for Rep), Parthenon (for culture and GPP), Great Library (for Great Scientists), Sistine Chapel (most important wonder for Culture Victory IMHO), Notre Dame (I happened to spawn a Great Engineer the same turn I got Engineering in a trade, so I figured "Why not?"), and Taj Mahal. Note that while I was building the Sistine Chapel I was able to make a trade with Pericles for some Marble, making life much easier.

Unfortunately I only had access to two religions: Confucianism, and Taoism (which I founded). So, that sucked. But I still managed to get two cathedrals from each religion, and that was a huge help in winning the game. Once I had Pacifism and Free Speech going, it was basically: Run Artists, spawn Great Artists, build lots of buildings, win game. For this purpose, I found the Salon actually pretty helpful once I traded for Astronomy.

Comments:

CRE really isn't very helpful at all when it comes to CV. I find other traits like FIN, ORG and especially PHI much better for this type of game.

I think there were two things holding me back from an earlier victory: Not having my own source of Marble, and only having two religions available. Unfortunately I can't really do anything about either of those (I'm not going to start self-teching Polytheism, Monotheism, Meditation, etc).

My one big mistake, I think, was the city of Rheims I described above. It was a phenomenal city, but I think it was too much of a drain on the economy for too long.
 
@JSS:
Spoiler stuff about generating the map :
Wow, what an amount of land. ... I'm playing this on Immortal. I don't know how a map like this would play on Deity, could be tough.
I regenerated a lot of maps trying to find one that had all the properties (a) looked like 2 continents instead of weird snaky things with islands joining them (b) had at least one AI with a decent agricultural-resource start we could swap positions with (we never got such a one of our own in about 20 regens) (c) didn't have enormous amounts of land for some AI to expand into. Under the current constraint of minimal editing and thus not expunging some of that extra land. Eventually I sort of gave up on a pure version of (c) and figured if we could expand into it, too, it wasn't so bad.

I think the RNG hated me yesterday. I don't recall having this much trouble with previous continents maps, though there was always some.
 
Monarch, Cultural Victory, 1822AD

Spoiler :

Seems like an amazingly similar game to MilesBeyond! Decided to go Culture cos it was late when I started to play. Nobody close and all such nice friendly AI's!

Wonders very similar although I missed Pyramids. Three religions on the continent, founded Islam myself just to make sure of this. Continent shared Confucianism so all very peaceful, friendly very early on. Settled out to 9 cities - lots of jungle chopping, probably should have had more workers... (I only had ~11...)

I eventually teched all the way to Mass Media, not sure if it was really worth it. Maybe I should have stopped after Lib.

Is there a general opinion here on which way is more efficient for culture win?
Also is it worth going for a ton of religions or three enough?
 
@aitkensam:
Spoiler :
The consensus is to stop tech'ing after Nationalism and push the Culture slider as high as possible. Here's jesusin's guide to cultural victories. I prefer to go for 9 cities and 3 religions per city to get cathedrals in all 3 legendary cities but apparently 6 is enough, since there is usually a city -- e.g. capital with lots of wonders -- that doesn't need the cathedral multipliers (though it might get the Hermitage; that goes in whichever city is going to finish last otherwise).
 
To 1802 Monarch Cultural victory:

Spoiler :
Religious techers on the other continent? Oh, man, what am I going to do about that?



I also bulbed Philosophy for Taoism not long after this since Paris's next build was a Library.

With two peaceful techers in the neighborhood, I decided to go for aggressive settling rather than aggressive beating-the-snot-out-of-people. This led to me settling 14 cities total. The boundaries were roughly defined by gold resources; one city south of Mansa's gold blocked him off from the south, while that QUADRUPLE-GOLD CITY ( :D ) to the distant west blocked Pericles with one other city. From there, it was a matter of backfilling into that crappy jungle and the food-poor southeast.

For religions, I used a trick from Neal's Asoka KOTW game, leaving some cities (since I had a ton of them) without religions in the hopes that I'd get one from an AI. This led to me picking up Islam from Mansa, but I didn't get anything from the other continent. I did build the Pyramids (sort of late), built a few wonders in my culture cities (Paya, Chicken Pizza, MoM, Sankore), and built important wonders that I wanted in my production-oriented cities (Sistine, Taj, and one other...).

My plan was to use Lib for Democracy, but Mansa was on his way there, so I ended up Libbing a partially teched Constitution (ARGH). It did save me some beakers, but I HATE doing that. Still, my ultimate tech goal was Democracy, at which point I'd let scientist specialists handle my beaker needs while running Mercantilism with the Statue of Liberty for two free specialists per city. I spent most of this time in Representation, but after Rifling I switched to US to get some production rolling in my culture cities so they could finish their shrines. All the while, I kept pace with techs by trading carefully, though I was dragging at the end--typical for a culture game, really.

All told, there was one war all game--a dogpile on Pacal that came in the very last turns. Other than that, a very peaceful, straightforward game where I was more interested in culturally flipping cities (TetraGoldCity flipped one of Pericles's with the help of spies) than marching Cuirs into them.

My favorite flip, though:



Muslim holy city--and my only shrine all game. That 22 gold is likely my fault, too.

So I built Wealth and Culture and gave tribute where it was requested, leading to a pretty straightforward win.

Paris:



I don't know that settling on the sugar was a good idea--especially when that northern hill ended up covered in jungle. It made a great GP farm, though. As you can see, my last tech researched--on the last turn of the game--was Biology. If it'd kept going, I'd probably have gone for Steam Power for a little more production, but the game was over a long time ago.

Lyons:



Confucian holy city to boot! That wasn't planned. Honestly, if I'd found the quadruple gold site earlier, I'd have made it my other cultural city, but Lyons did fine with the help of some late culture bombs.

Rheims:



This one was a monster. Sistine-powered artist specialists were slightly stronger than working the gold mine, but that site was working the mine for much of the game. In the end, my biggest liability was health; only having one grain to play with all game long was awful, and nobody overseas really cared for me enough to trade rice or wheat.

Overall, this map's well-suited for going culture, I think. The best production sites are buried under jungle, so I guess you could do Cuirassier reaping late in the game, but I've been doing that in most of these games and felt like doing something different.


Thanks for the map, lambman!
 
Monarch/ No Huts or Events/ 1710 AD Culture Victory

Spoiler :
I took The Oz-Man's advice and settled on the sugar. It played out to be a good move. I only settled 6 cities and decided to stop there. My reasoning was with the six cities I settled around my capital and a little to the north, all I had left was jungle to the west. I figured this would put a damper on my ecomony more than help because I wanted to get the fastest culture victory I've had before, which I did!

I was playing on Emperor but decided to give myself a break and less stressful game today, since I haven't played Civ in a week or so.

I didn't wonder whore to much, Oracle'd CoL, parthenon, MoM, sistine of course! and taj to start a golden age and swap civics and go into coccon stage! Culture games aren't usually the most fun to play but I tried out the tactics listed in the guide dalamb mentioned and it helped out a lot.

Edit: Also I forgot to build Hermitage in my weak Legendary city till about 1650 AD, if I didn't make that stupid mistake I would have got a 1690 or 1695 victory date... :mad: But oh well still was a lot of fun.
 

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settling on sugar seems like strongest play here.

not sure with tech order...tried yesterday min->bw before pottery on monarch and it worked. But I think going pottery->min->bw and cottaging the sugar tiles sooner may be stronger play.
 
I just completed my goal of winning one victory of every type on Noble. So to celebrate, I'm giving this one a try on Prince. I've already played almost up to 1 AD, will post the save later. Map is obviously set up for a late cultural win as discussed, although I think I've already screwed that up, but a really late cultural win (with the Mass Media wonders) might still work.

Spoiler :
I took Oz-man's recommendation and settled the sugar to the north. I don't think the net production is any worse, though production in general looks weak, so space might be tough on this map. Went worker first. Teched mining>BW>pottery>writing>math>masonry>sailing>aesthetics>construction. The masonry and sailing were to hook up the marble. That was probably a mistake and cost me founding Christianity and Confucianism. Pericles managed to get Christianity, so hopefully he spreads it. Second city went south to get marble and clams. 3rd was to the north for the copper/clams. 4th was to the NE toward Mansa near the corn (there sure is a lot of corn on this map). 5th city is to the west near corn/sugar with hopes of getting sixth city near pigs/gold to the W (Mansa beat me to pigs/gold to the NE. Not sure if I should keep on REXing or build an army and kill Mansa.
 
settling on sugar seems like strongest play here.

not sure with tech order...tried yesterday min->bw before pottery on monarch and it worked. But I think going pottery->min->bw and cottaging the sugar tiles sooner may be stronger play.

Settling on sugar was a strong play for me. I think I went min>bw>pottery, and cottaged the sugars. Maybe your right in going pottery first, it's not like you really have to rush to expand.

Spoiler :
You might want to expand quickly if your looking to grab the resources to the north, right by MM. I didn't bother with that, I wanted to get my economy up and going strong first.
 
Here's my save, tips and advice appreciated as always.
 

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Settling on sugar was a strong play for me. I think I went min>bw>pottery, and cottaged the sugars. Maybe your right in going pottery first, it's not like you really have to rush to expand.

Spoiler :
You might want to expand quickly if your looking to grab the resources to the north, right by MM. I didn't bother with that, I wanted to get my economy up and going strong first.

I went Pottery first, and it worked out well. I was a little afraid to do it since i was worried that the barbs (on Immortal) would get out of control, but, surprisingly, they weren't really an issue.
 
I've gotten to 1100 AD. A cultural win looks salvagable, but this is where I tend to struggle so advice appreciated.

Spoiler :
So I managed to found Taoism, Christianity spread from Mansa, and am a few turns from founding Islam. So the culture win is still alive. I don't think I've got the production for military or space victories, so I'll need to make culture work. I did land Sistine Chapel and Sankore which should help. So where should my 3 culture cities be? Unfortunately my screen shots didn't come out right, but in addition to what you can see Chartres is NE of Rheims on the coast with clams/paper. I also have a city down near Pericles with pig/corn/4 gold/horse. Pericles has settled cities on the border of that city on three sides. I settled the GA from music there to fight them off. If I can hold onto it, I think this could be a good culture city as 4 gold will be sweet when it comes time to up the culture slider. Paris will obviously be one culture city as it has a head start and a bunch of wonders. For the third, Orleans is currently second because of wonders and it is also the holy city for Taoism, but Rheims or Tours both have more cottagable land when it comes time to up the culture slider. So what do you think.

Diplomacy is going to be tricky. Pericles and Mansa are both currently Christian. I am Taoist since I needed the religion and I could eventually have a real nice shrine in Orleans if I can manage a prophet. I could convert to Christianity which would help, but Pericles is #1 in power and I'm his most obvious target. Unless I can manage to split him and Mansa up, war seems inevitable. I did build the AP and Pericles has some Taoist cities, so there are some possibilities there. I am also having troubles with spies. 3 cities poisoned already, and I think I've been catching a spy nearly every turn. I'm thinking spies and spamming culture buildings might help me flip Pericles' cities he built on my borders.

Lastly what should I build now? I can see 4 possibilities all of which seem essential, but I can only realistically carry out 1 or maybe 2.

1. spam military for eventual war
2. spam spies for counterespionage/defense/flipping Pericles cities
3. spam missionaries to convert neighbors for diplomacy/AP manipulation
4. spam religous buildings for more culture and science bonus (with Sankore)

So any ideas?
 

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I played this on Deity until 1280 AD, and I think I'm done.

Spoiler :
I settled 12 reasonable spots, but the AI are all best buds and have too many cities. Pacal might have 21, Pericles has 19 and a vassal... Isabella is now the only AI not in Free Religion, so they're all trading with one another. I'm struggling to keep up in techs.

My plan was to box in Mansa Musa and eventually attack. This worked just fine, and kept him confined to seven cities. But then he peace-vassaled to Pericles, and ran away with the Lib race (2x fur sites, 1x gold, and a shrine for our whole continent). If he hadn't peace-vassaled, I would be in a much better position, even without getting to Lib first.

Oh well. Can't win them all :)
 
@MrKlew, I don't have time to post a lot of advice right now, but...

Spoiler :
...switch to Christianity immediately. No sense being a diplomatic pariah just so you can have a more lucrative shrine. ;)
 
@MrKlew

1110 AD on Prince and AI still hasn't gotten Parthenon yet? :wow:
 
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