Muslim World Enhancements

In this thread I will compile a list of ideas (mostly my own) on how to make the Muslim World in DoC (specifically, the civs Arabia, Moors, Mali, Turkey, Mughals, and Iran; Indonesia, Egypt, Ethiopia can also be affected if they convert to Islam) more rich and fun to play. It will contain general ideas that affect all these civs and specific ideas for the Arab civ. I feel such ideas are needed as much of the development of DoC has been focused on other areas of the world (Europe and Asia, mostly).

However, before I start, a disclaimer:

I am a student of the materialistic view of history. And as such, my ideas will be focused on the economic, technological, and military aspects of the Muslim world, but NOT its political and religious issues. You will not see, for example, me trying to design a Sunni-Shia splitt - it is a hot topic, but better suited to someone else, and possibly in another thread.

A list of ideas to appear in this thread follows. Unexpectedly, there will be little to no discussion regarding alternative UHVs, as I am quite happy with the UHV designs of the various Islamic civs as of now.

== Muslim World in General ==

- Islam spread by the Sword

- The Islamic Golden Age

- The Muslim Agricultural Revolution

- UB Adjustments across several Islamic civs

== Arab Civ in Particular ==

- UB (Madrassa) proposals

- Possible new/enhanced UP proposals

- Spawn location (3000 BC) /pre-placed cities location (600 AD) and terrain adjustments

These are some ideas to make Islam more interesting and appealing. Catholicism has the huge appeal of the Apostolic Palace and the chance to get new Shrines (Orthodox and Protestant). Islam needs more benefits to compete - hopefully these might encourage players to occasionally play as an Islamic Rome or Byzantium for a fresh change.

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== 1. Islam Spread by the Sword ==

This had been a unique feature of the Arab UP, but in reality is a signature of Islam in general. It's one of the major factors that made such a young religion so dominant in the world.

In vanilla RFC it's suitable as the Arab UP because of the only other two Islamic civs, Mali is largely peaceful, and the Ottomans' own UP more than make up for it. But with Leoreth's addition of the Moors, Safavids and Mughals, it's a lot less realistic to restrict this to the Arab civ alone. Most tellingly, AI Mughals, Seljuks, and (it seems) Safavids and Ottomans already receive this bonus.

So, in conclusion, make this a universal bonus:
Islam spread to your newly conquered/flipped cities if it's your state religion.

The Arab civ may receive a (hidden) special version of this where non-Islamic religions are removed in addition to the spread of Islam.

Finally, this effect should expire with a late Renaissance tech such as Rifling/Economics.

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== 2. The Islamic Golden Age ==

What I wish to see is a representation of the sudden burst of technological advancement during the Islamic Golden Age which is currently absent from the game. This could be represented simply by a tech cost re-scale for Arabia during the Medieval Era, but it can be made a lot more fun than that, which will hopefully: (1) Give the Arab player something else to do before the Mongol Invasion other than conquering lightly defended barb cities and fending off barb waves; (2) Give the China player a realistic, serious challenge in terms of tech race during the Medieval period.

For balance and realism reasons I feel this is best represented by a Wonder which expires early, and most optimally built in a high pop city such as Baghdad. (To maintain the same total amount of Wonders, I propose that the Dome of the Rock be removed, as its effect is almost completely useless since Arabia doesn't get War Weariness from fighting Barbs, Indies, or Seljuks anyway. )

Wonder Name: House of Wisdom
Available with Divine Right. Expires with Gunpowder/Printing Press.
Possible Effect 1: +2 per specialist in all cities. Old La Mezquita effect.
Possible Effect 2: +2 per population point in the city it is built. Like the Empire State Building, but with instead of . This will (hopefully) encourage supercity Baghdad.

Or it could be made the new Arab UP. The Power of the Islamic Golden Age: +1 +1 from Priest specialists till the end of the Medieval Era. But this is not as appealing as some other ideas for the Arab UP, and it precludes other Islamic civs from enjoying the effect.

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== 3. Muslim Agricultural Revolution ==

Regardless of the origins of the technologies in the Classical world, the effect is indisputable. Medieval Muslim metropolises such as Baghdad and Cordoba dwarf contemporary European cities due to superior agricultural technologies. And such an effect is absent from the game due to a combination of barbs, horrid AI city locations, and the Arab's slow growth due to late spawn and lack of resources.

I have one idea to change all that: If your state religion is Islam, you can build Farms on Flood Plains/Desert, and Oasis/Desert tiles without Biology.

While this seems like an overpowering effect at first, its scale is actually extremely limited because of the limited distribution of Flood Plains and Oasis tiles:
- The Arabs will obviously benefit the most from this. It will help Arab cities in Egypt and Mesopotamia grow to decent sizes, while not affecting the growth of an Arab Rome or Constantinople.
- Hence, it will make those areas much more appealing targets for the Ottomans and Safavids.
- The Moors will not be able to compound this effect with their UP as their historical areas lack either of the two terrains.
- The Mughals can farm up the Indus and Genghis valleys to deal with the effect of closely packed cities and reach their 12 cities & GArtist UHVs easier.

Finally, to me personally, this removes the obnoxiously unrealistic effect of medieval suburbia (i.e. Flood Plains packed with Cottages). Agricultural societies should be represented realistically as such.

In compensation, the GP rate of various Islamic civs may be decreased after testing, and Mughal UB can give Artist slot instead of free Artists.

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== 4. Islamic Civs UBs Adjustments ==

This is a modification I often use personally.

Arab Madrassa and Turkish Hammam count as Islamic religious buildings (same as how the Thai UB counts as a Buddhist religious building). This will let them benefit from Spiral Minaret and Univ. of Sankore. This can also be extended to the Mughal Mausoleum, which in their case give them double production speed with Khajuraho.

Specific ideas regarding the Arab Madrassa in the next post. In short, it should replace University and boost .

These are proposed changes specific to the Arab civ.

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== 1. Unique Buildng: Madrassa Adjustments ==

A Madrasa is a Muslim institute of education which includes higher education such as law school and medical school. Some consider Madrassas to eventually be universities. Also, it is quite distinct from libraries in the Islamic world.

As such, my proposal regarding the Madrassa:
- Replaces University
- Available with Paper
- +25%
- 1~2 Scientist slots, 1~2 Priest slots
- 2 to represent the effects of Islamic medicine.

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== 2. Unique Power: The Power of Faith ==

If any civ deserves a religious UP it is this civ. However, with the Spread by Sword being shared by all Muslim civs (see post above), the Arabs need something more distinct.

Also, I was one of the strong proponents that removed the free Cathedrals from the original Arab UP in vanilla RFC, because it leads to the absurd situation of the Arabs being unable to build a Cathedral/Grand Mosque in Mecca.

UP Version 1: Free Temples and Monasteries are built in your cities when your state religion spreads to them.
A conservative version, much like the old UP. Requires the Arabs to start with Meditation, which I think is appropriate.

UP Version 2 (my recommendation): +100% construction speed of religious buildings, and +50% effect of Theocracy and Fanaticism.
I think it's more fun to build religious buildings than to get them for free. You already get the thrill of hearing the Muslim music whenever you conquer a city due to the Spread by Sword mechanic.
Theocracy and Fanaticism are what I feel underused civics, but they are very characteristic of Arabia so it's natural for them to receive a bonus.

Specifically, +50% effect of Theocracy means +3 Happiness and +3 XP from State religion. This effect (and that of Fanaticism) could be increased to 100% as well, but I feel 50% would be a noticeable benefit without being overpowered.

UP Version 3: The Sword of Islam

ius_iurandi said:

Power of the Sword of Islam
No resistance in conquered cities.

(Here, the Sword more refers to how Walid successfully conquered and held territory so easily)

Click to expand...

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== 3. City Location and Terrain Adjustments ==

Most importantly, 3000 BC Egypt should spawn 1N of their current location. This will make them reliably build Alexandria (tested by me), instead of some crap city 1 tile from coast. For the same reason, Cairo in the 600 AD map should be moved 1S to the same location. This makes for a much more reasonable city location setup in Egypt. It will also make Ethiopia more interesting and realistic to play, as you will be less compelled to kill Egypt asap due to its overpowering Culture.

The Caucasus needs to be changed to other than blank Deserts/Peaks. It had been one of the important centers of civilization since ancient times instead of an uninhabitable wasteland.

Additional food resources/Flood Plains should spawn near Damascus/Baghdad, as well as the Nile Delta around 600 AD (and disappear later if necessary). Short of introducing new resources (Dates? Citrus? Hemp?) there could be 1~2 Rice, for example in the Nile Delta (a Rice used to spawn there in either DoC or Synthesis), and a few more Coffee.

Looking forward to this when finished

I hope you aren't serious about trying to include the historically debunked Arab Agricultural Revolution. It never took place and is a total myth. To the extent the Arab/Islamic world had much higher agricultural production than Europe, it was due to retaining sophisticated pre-Islamic agricultural practices from Rome, Egypt and Persia that were lost in Europe (or, indeed, may never have been introduced in Europe, even during the height of the Roman Empire), not because of any major new developments in Islamic lands.

Hightower said:

I hope you aren't serious about trying to include the historically debunked Arab Agricultural Revolution. It never took place and is a total myth. To the extent the Arab/Islamic world had much higher agricultural production than Europe, it was due to retaining sophisticated pre-Islamic agricultural practices from Rome, Egypt and Persia that were lost in Europe (or, indeed, may never have been introduced in Europe, even during the height of the Roman Empire), not because of any major new developments in Islamic lands.

Click to expand...

Regardless of the original author of the technologies, the effect on the Islamic world is the same, and I wish to see that effect represented in game.

iOnlySignIn said:

Regardless of the original author of the technologies, the effect on the Islamic world is the same, and I wish to see that effect represented in game.

Click to expand...

Then every civ from pre-Islamic times should have a similar boost. Frankly, it's far better represented by the prevalence of flood plains in Arab lands compared to Europe (though really the issue is that pre-Renaissance Europe is too food-rich in RFC, not that the Islamic world or anywhere else is too food-poor--perhaps having the early Euros spawn without Agriculture [and Animal Husbandry?] would help).

About the Agricultural Revolution. This may be better represented by some kind of Islamic Medicine idea. The Islamic world's seemingly large population was relative to Europe at the time, which was consistently plague-ridden and a generally unhealthy place, something that should be better represented in game as well.

Hippo8085 said:

About the Agricultural Revolution. This may be better represented by some kind of Islamic Medicine idea. The Islamic world's seemingly large population was relative to Europe at the time, which was consistently plague-ridden and a generally unhealthy place, something that should be better represented in game as well.

Click to expand...

That is part of my idea for a revised Madrassa UB (to be typed out later). Madrassas included medical schools.

I hope this will not start heated debate…

But Islam was not spread by sword. Only religion which have had era when it was been spread by sword is catholic religion. And like most of cases when violence is justified by religious arguments the real reason was political power game post Roman Empire Europe.
And one country / kingdom, one religion, (one ruler) is European Christianity concept. So have Islam as only religion for civilization is too ahistorical.

For game playing reason I am ok to have concept that Islam was spread by sword BUT if meaning was to make DoC more historical than Islam spread by sword is ahistorical and would make DoC much less historical…

^
It's a necessary gameplay mechanism. Requiring Arabs, Ottomans and Mughals to build large amount of Missionaries would be extremely tedious. We either give them free Missionaries or "Spread by the Sword". The latter is preferred because the effect is more fun and satisfying, IMO.

Also, you could interpret the mechanism this way: When you acquire a city, the people actually embrace Islam automatically because of how compelling your faith is. This is very fitting for Safavids, Mughals, and Ottomans, whose UPs are religious bonus/religious tolerance/cultural absorption respectively.

That's how I choose to interpret it, as the Arabs don't suffer an extra severe population drop upon city conquest (which would correspond to massacre/expulsion of non-believers), nor extra extended periods of Unhappiness and Instability (which would correspond to forced, insincere conversions). In fact, my proposed UP (Option 2) is exactly the opposite of that. You get extra Happiness, XP, and from Islam as state religion.

It's Sword in name only, if you will.

Sounds good

PS And actually in The Qur'an is written to spread Islam by intellectual (by debates etc.) sword:

"It is the sword of intellect. The sword that conquers the hearts and minds of people. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125: “Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.” [Al-Qur’an 16:125]"

iOnlySignIn said:

== 1. Islam Spread by the Sword ==

Click to expand...

I agree, and would also give this bonus to Catholic civs running Theology when conquering cities with no religion (i.e. Aztecs, Incas and natives). Atm it's very annoying to trigger the conquerors, capture all the cities, and then have to ferry missionaries from Europe when in reality the conquistadors baptised all the natives pretty much on the spot as a condition of not killing them.

iOnlySignIn said:

Wonder Name: House of Wisdom
Available with Divine Right. Expires with Gunpowder/Printing Press.
Possible Effect 1: +2 per specialist in all cities. Old La Mezquita effect.
Possible Effect 2: +2 per population point in the city it is built. Like the Empire State Building, but with instead of . This will (hopefully) encourage supercity Baghdad.

Click to expand...

Would it not encourage supercity Alexandria? With the fish, wheat and health issues I often find Alexandria ends up bigger than Baghdad, particularly with Damascus often taking tiles from Baghdad.

iOnlySignIn said:

Theocracy and Fanaticism are what I feel underused civics, but they are very characteristic of Arabia so it's natural for them to receive a bonus.

Click to expand...

Personally I always use Theocracy and Fanaticism as Arabs - helps keep other religions out for stability and has numerous other benefits when trying to conquer Persia and Iberia and kick the Seljuks. Also, not sure happiness is a big issue for the Arabs what with wine, dye, incense and the gold in Egypt.

I'd say a better UP would be a conditional stability boost of +2 for every city conquers whilst running both Theocracy and Fanaticism. That way you would encourage the Arabs to expand faster and actually reach their full size quickly, rather than at the moment where you need to delay conquering Iberia and Persia to avoid triggering an Egyptian respawn due to instability.

Imo a human Arab player should be able to DW on the Moors and boot them out of Africa more or less as soon as they spawn, as well as conquer Persia with the starting CA stack. That would reflect historical reality, but at the moment that's impossible as you lose stability and then out pops Egypt just as the Seljuks attack.

iOnlySignIn said:

Also, you could interpret the mechanism this way: When you acquire a city, the people actually embrace Islam automatically because of how compelling your faith is. This is very fitting for Safavids, Mughals, and Ottomans, whose UPs are religious bonus/religious tolerance/cultural absorption respectively.

Click to expand...

That also applies to the Arabs and Moors. Many Christians in the lands they conquered converted to Islam because they were much more tolerant and it was at the time seen as a more intellectual and cultural, as well as the social mobility benefits of adopting Islam in theocratical society.

You know how to convice people . However, I would like to point out that seeing Mesopotamia full of cottages isn't too unrealistic as it would represent how much the region was urbanized during the Islamic golden age.
Also, putting Cairo 1S would be geographically inaccurate and would probably prevent a human player from settling another city in the Nile. Plus, keeping Cairo at it's current place would prevent Alexandria from becoming a bigger city then Bagdad.

iOnlySignIn said:

== 1. Unique Buildng: Madrassa Adjustments ==

A Madrasa is a Muslim institute of education which includes higher education such as law school and medical school. Some consider Madrassas to eventually be universities. Also, it is quite distinct from libraries in the Islamic world.

As such, my proposal regarding the Madrassa:
- Replaces University
- Available with Paper
- +25%
- 1~2 Scientist slots, 1~2 Priest slots
- 2 to represent the effects of Islamic medicine.

Click to expand...

Even if anything is going to be implanted, I think the Madrassa should replace the University instead of the Library. For the same reasons as described above.

Well the Ottoman's taking of Janissaries wasn't exactly peaceful or intellectual. These were Christian boys who were taken from their families and completely converted to Turkish culture, religion, name etc...

This is brilliant, but I'd like to address a couple concerns point-by-point.

A.) Muslim world in General

B.) Arab Civ

what is the obessesion with Shia here

I have no idea. The Shia-Sunni split is more political than religious which can't be properly represented which was stated a lot of times. People don't take no for an answer.