Yahya's Back-to-School Game

Hello folks!

I've decided that I need to work on a game with followers so I can learn a few things. I plan to post a situation, gather feedback and discuss, and then move forward. Rinse, repeat.

I am attempting to get a strong handle on Noble as a starting point, so I can start working up the difficulty levels. I believe Noble is the best place to start since there are no advantages or disadvantages for me or the AI. Makes things fair.

So here is my first attempt. The settings:

Random civ / leader, because I want to learn to develop a strategy based on the leader drawn, rather than choosing one based on a strategy.

Pangaea, Standard, Temperate, Normal Speed, Medium sea level, Natural shoreline.

No huts and no events.

Here is my leader:



I therefore will start with TW and AG, which means I can build roads and farms, and I can go straight to AH to reveal horses, which will enable me to build chariots if I want.

However, I have Hammurabi, so I have the Bowman to replace the Archer, and I get -50% Hammer cost for barracks and drydock, plus a free Combat I upgrade for all melee and gunpowder units. I am thinking therefore that a beeline to BW is a good idea, because if I can get axes quickly, I can do some damage around me very quickly.

I'll want a good food start for growth, and I need production to get units out quickly. So I either need a food-rich or hammer-rich start, and I can produce a settler fairly soon to found that second city.

Here is the start:



If I SIP, I settle on plains with Fresh Water, and I get 2 clams and one pigs in the BFC.

So that is what I'm thinking. Move warrior 1 NE to see what else I can see, but probably SIP and have warrior scout for second (production) city location. Research fishing so I can get a WB and get one of the clams up for growth.

Build order in city:
Worker -> maybe not; not sure what I'd do with him right away
Warrior -> scout
Warrior -> escort settler
By now the city should be size 3 I believe.
Settler -> found new production city

Any feedback will be appreciated. There is a game save attached, also.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you are playing with a mod - something more than just BUG in custom assets. If so, it is a nice thing to let folks know what mod is in use in case someone wants to shadow (which you want). BUG in custom assets is no problem since saves can be open with or without a mod (it's rather standard for forum games). However, stand-alone mods can cause Civ to crash or loop with makes folks go (If I'm mistaken, then ignore, but the leaderhead looks suspicious)


As for your start:

Your build order seems fine...pretty standard start. Although I might start settler as soon as you hit size 3.

Generally the advice is to always SIP if you are inexperienced and playing noble. SIP is okay, but I really don't like all that nasty coast for a starting cap with no seafood. I'd be inclined to want to see what is on the other side of that plains hill (PH) with the goal to settle on it.

Mining>BW is absolutely the best starting tech path should you SIP.

Also, at least move warrior 1NE first before making any decision. Might be Flood plains up there. Even a hint of them can lure you East. Also, check if the PH is next to river. Not sure and not opening save until mod is confirmed.

(By the way, based on your intro it seems like you have the right idea and attitude about a learner game here. I just hope you stick with it...and with the plan)

Thanks for the reply, lymond.

I am running the Better BAT AI mod, so I can alter that for only BUG if you think it best. I definitely have no other mods running unless they're included in that.

I'll wait for the response about the mod before I do anything.

Well, if you want folks to be able to open the save and give pinpoint advice and/or play along I suggest using BUG in custom assets.

All right. I'll change to that one. I didn't realize there was a difference, actually.

I've generated a new start using the BUG mod in CustomAssets, but I'm having trouble uploading screenshots, and I have to go to work.

I'll update the original post when I get home tonight.

I agree with Lymo SiP, and tech Mining -> BW.

Okay. I've edited the original post with the picture of Hammurabi (to show I've changed the mod) and the new start, which I don't like as well as the one from before with the BAT mod. That said I think this is doable.

I edited my comments regarding the SIP as well to show my thought process.

I am thinking I need to get fishing asap to get one of the clams set up, and then Mining -> BW as was discussed earlier.

SiP, worker first, tech AH. You should have the worker out 1 turn before AH comes in I think, might be 2. So you can move on to Pigs, and 1 turn road it if need be.

Yep, screw fishing. Seafood is for pansies like Z-cubed.

Ham has great starting techs and a very solid land based food resource. I'd probably go AH>Mining>BW here. BBQ the Pigs, lay a couple of mines while chopping the first settler. Hopefully horses nearby.

Fishing early would depend on surrounding land. It might be worth grabbing after BW and before Pot since TW, AG and Fish all boost POT (unlike Z who just abuses it)

Rofl! Good job calling the POT a kettle Lymo!

But sadly Lymo isn't that bad at the game all the time, and once in awhile gets teching correct. So yes tech AH -> Mining -> BW. Then where I differ from Lymo is that I feel Writing then Fishing would probably be stronger here than Fishing then POT, as much as I love POT.

Okay, here we go.

SIP and the land doesn't look much better. Worker in 15, AH in 11.

Here's Babylon:



Warrior to the east to start exploring and found the end of a peninsula 5E from Babylon.

Turn 4, met Qin Shi Huang. That seems pretty damned close to me.

Warrior circled around to the north, found the peninsula is rather long and narrow, then to the west, and found Beijing 7W of Babylon. Ugh.

Turn 11 AH comes in, and the only horses I see are in Qin's borders.

Got the worker turn 15, start working the pigs. Mining comes in 5 turns later -> head to BW.

Once the pasture is up, move 1NE and build a mine.

Turn 25 met Toku.

This map is not looking too good, so I am thinking when I get to BW and scout for copper I will stop and get feedback. At this point it looks like without copper (or even iron), I will need to make a serious rush at China to get the horses before he gets too big.

BW comes in and I tech Pot just to tech something so I can make the game save. The only copper I see is to the south beneath China. I'm thinking I have to get that spot so I can build axes and get rid of China because he's going to be in the way. I'd like to get rid of Toku also because I hate that guy.

Here's Babylon's set up at size 3:



And here's the north of the empire, showing the horses in China's back yard:



And here's the south with the copper on the coast with stone and silver:



So as I said, I'm thinking I need that south spot--should be easily able to get there first on Noble--and then start whooping on China until they're dead.

Thoughts? Save attached from 2720BC, turn 32.

The South spot looks very good to me, I'd go for that next. The corridor between your capital and the Chinese should keep your settler safe from animals, right? You thinking fish/stone spot and then copper, silver, beaver? Unconventional to risk getting your capitol boxed in... We'll see how it looks after the second city.

No reason to work the forested grassland over the farmed wine to pick up an extra coin.

This is going to be tough--you're hemmed in by Qin, and he has easier access to the best resources. Might want to chop out a few Settlers just to secure the copper with a couple of cities.

What’s that old saying about all plans being subject to change on first contact with the enemy? To put it another way – and I don’t mean to sound harsh at all when saying this – I wonder if this was one of those occasions when stopping on T4 (having met Qin) and asking for advice would’ve been worthwhile. The reason? FWIW, I’d have stopped building a worker right there and worked a 1 2 tile (since there’s no forested plains hill around), punched out 3 warriors....and used all 4 (including the starting one) to pay Qin a visit. Yes, your worker hammers would’ve decayed a little (since it would’ve taken more than 10 turns to knock out 3 warriors) but, my guess is that this would’ve given you a second city for a cost of just 45 hammers (plus the hammers lost to decay) and so would’ve been more than worthwhile. Remember, Hammy is AGG, so those warriors would’ve had every chance of taking Qin down.

As it stands, you have just one objective....kill Bill, I mean Qin. If you’re going to get the copper to do it as per your post, don’t forget that you’ll also want sailing to connect it IMHO; otherwise, that’s a seriously long road you’re building. FWIW, I’m not a fan of the copper site – because (i) there’s no food available with copper in the inner ring (ii) the distance of the city from your capital (and therefore its maintenance costs) and (iii) that you’ll likely need to tech sailing to connect it to your capital and hope Qin doesn’t settle in such a way that you immediately lose copper when you DoW...and need to keep OB with him until then.

There are two other options worth considering though IMHO. You could gamble on iron...swords would be great but of course there’s no certainty iron's around. I can imagine that many will recommend this option though. Another possibility meanwhile might be to place city #2 1W of the plains cow to the east and tech fishing (and share a clam) > hunting > archery to perform a 2 city archer rush. (Others might go for 1N of the western grassland cow to open up Beijing to attack.) You’ll need a good few archers if you go this way because Qin is PRO (in case he whips archers) and also has access to horses...but you have all those trees and BW is in to help you whip too. Connecting the two cities will also be a cinch. Talking of BW, I confess that I’m not 100% sure of your ability to beat Qin to that copper spot even on noble....even if you whip the settler. There’s stone, fish and FPs all in the vicinity, which I think will make it a very tempting target - if the Qin AI decides to REx.

FWIW, my preference would be to whip and build a bunch (say 8-10 edit: could even be a dozen at a stretch) of barracks trained (remember you're AGG so a barracks is a quick build) archers ASAP from your two cities. In the context of the thread (going back to school), that would probably teach you one of the best lessons you’ll ever learn in Civ 4: how to use the whip – and stack whip weariness - to quickly amass an army. If you don’t fancy that though, I’d suggest gambling on iron (perhaps by teching fishing > IW to get in some commerce) and / or look to construction and catas and / or feudalism for LBs. (If going IW by the way, perhaps consider whipping your settler to secure 1N of western cows as city #2 to secure as much territory as possible to maximise your chances of getting iron). You have plenty of options in what looks like a very good start if your goal is to learn.

shulgi said:

The corridor between your capital and the Chinese should keep your settler safe from animals, right? You thinking fish/stone spot and then copper, silver, beaver? Unconventional to risk getting your capitol boxed in... We'll see how it looks after the second city.

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I would escort the settler with a warrior, but given all the comments I'm now rethinking that strategy. I'm not yet sure what I'll do next.

The Oz-Man said:

No reason to work the forested grassland over the farmed wine to pick up an extra coin.

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I'm not sure I'm clear on what you mean there. It sounds like you're saying I should move the citizen from the 2F 1H tile to the wine tile where I'll get 2F 1H 1C. I hadn't noticed that until I looked again from your comment. Thanks. If you meant something else, please clarify.

learner gamer said:

I wonder if this was one of those occasions when stopping on T4 (having met Qin) and asking for advice would’ve been worthwhile. The reason? FWIW, I’d have stopped building a worker right there and worked a 1 2 tile (since there’s no forested plains hill around), punched out 3 warriors....and used all 4 (including the starting one) to pay Qin a visit. Yes, your worker hammers would’ve decayed a little (since it would’ve taken more than 10 turns to knock out 3 warriors) but, my guess is that this would’ve given you a second city for a cost of just 45 hammers (plus the hammers lost to decay) and so would’ve been more than worthwhile. Remember, Hammy is AGG, so those warriors would’ve had every chance of taking Qin down.

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Yes. That is an excellent argument. I should have thought of that.

I knew when I met Qin that early I'd have to do something as soon as possible. It didn't occur to me at all that asap would have been, well, asap. Like immediately. That's definitely something worth taking away from this game. Thank you.

You make some good points about the copper site, and I considered the lack of food and the distance from the capital (due to the road, not thinking about maintenance) and I was worried about it. The reason for my feeling I should go for the copper is because I have none and Qin has horses. But I'm not married to that idea.

I didn't realize I can gain access to resources with Sailing. I knew it will open trade routes, so long as I have an open path of coast from one city to the next, if I understand correctly. I assume resource access works the same?

learner gamer said:

FWIW, my preference would be to whip and build a bunch (say 8-10 edit: could even be a dozen at a stretch) of barracks trained (remember you're AGG so a barracks is a quick build) archers ASAP from your two cities. In the context of the thread (going back to school), that would probably teach you one of the best lessons you’ll ever learn in Civ 4: how to use the whip – and stack whip weariness - to quickly amass an army.

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I think I like that idea the best. It is probably the best assurance that I can whip Qin out of the game, and as you said I'll learn how to quickly amass an overwhelming army and wipe someone else out.

I might just take that option with the site 1N of the western cow, as you suggested. However, might it not be better to put that city farther north to take advantage of the forests for chopping archers? Of course, with the cow I could grow the city and use the whip as well. I imagine that's the stronger play because it is more sustainable, while once you're out of forests and can't grow the city, you're stuck.

Yahya said:

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you mean there. It sounds like you're saying I should move the citizen from the 2F 1H tile to the wine tile where I'll get 2F 1H 1C. I hadn't noticed that until I looked again from your comment. Thanks. If you meant something else, please clarify.

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No, that's what I meant--you were working a lower yield tile than you could've.

The Oz-Man said:

No, that's what I meant--you were working a lower yield tile than you could've.

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Roger. Thanks.

You’re welcome to the advice. I hope it helps.

Yahya said:

I didn't realize I can gain access to resources with Sailing. I knew it will open trade routes, so long as I have an open path of coast from one city to the next, if I understand correctly. I assume resource access works the same?

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Yes. You’d connect the copper to a city down south and – assuming there’s some clear coast between that city and your capital – the city (and therefore its copper) will be connected to your capital. This is why you’d also need to be wary of Qin or barbs settling that FP / fish site...because that city might well block the coastal route back to your capital and deny you the ability to build axes and spears in your capital. Alternatively, it might force you to tech writing to OB with Qin and access the copper in your capital.

Yahya said:

I might just take that option with the site 1N of the western cow, as you suggested. However, might it not be better to put that city farther north to take advantage of the forests for chopping archers? Of course, with the cow I could grow the city and use the whip as well. I imagine that's the stronger play because it is more sustainable, while once you're out of forests and can't grow the city, you're stuck.

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Re: city #2. I actually prefer the plains cow site purely because the city will then have two food tiles available to it (the clams and plains cow) and so can grow and whip archers. However, you can likely justify either cow site for the archer rush, especially since settling the grassland cow opens up Beijing to attack immediately, and removes the possibility you might have to take out a city settled by Qin in that location before getting to Beijing.

The idea behind 1N of the grassland cow (to the west) is really more to do with gaining access to that cow ASAP instead of waiting until a border pop. You see, getting a border pop will require either teching mysticism (not a great idea IMHO because you want to get your army together rapidly here) or waiting for 19 turns until the capital pops borders. This might ordinarily be worth waiting for (and allow you to settle the grassland cow site further north as you note). However, assuming you tech hunting > archery (and skip fishing) if you settle the grassland cow, you can start producing archers in about a dozen turns time, by which time you want city #2 to be working that cow tile and have a barracks already in so you can whip archers. Now your settler’s finished in at most 7 turns and it will only take a turn or two to get to 1N of grassland cow – so you’d have to wait maybe 10 turns to get access to the cow site (from a border pop in the capital) during which time city #2 is growing rather slowly when you need it online making a contribution to your empire.

Re: next move. My preference remains the archer rush but, in fairness, I don’t think anyone would criticise you for gambling on iron here...and you’ll have to do something similar then anyway (ie. whip and chop swords) to get your army together. Indeed, given the key question – what are the features of the tile on which Beijing is founded, I’d imagine many on here might pursue it as their plan A. (Note: I think Beijing is founded on grassland, but my question is where that river you can see in the save is headed – and what side of the city is open to attack without crossing a river.) That said, the key question is of course whether there’s any iron around. Like I said, it's a great map to learn on.

If you do go the archer rush here, there are a couple of points worth noting.

(i) Speed is everything....so use the whip liberally and make sure you have your cities working either (a) high food tiles to regrow back ASAP after you’ve whipped them and / or (b) high hammer / mine tiles (eg. city #2 could also share the grassland hill which needs mining NW of the capital) to hasten production.

(ii) IMHO, you’ll need to promote your early bowmen especially (which will have next to no chance against a full strength PRO archer initially) up the drill line, to at least try and partially negate Qin’s PRO trait. IMHO, save combat I for when your bows come up against a chariot or warrior.

(iii) Following on from the point above about Beijing, use your warriors in the field to scout a little more around Qin’s capital to help you identify where best to attack from.

(iv) Once again, speed is everything...the later you leave it to attack, the more archers you’ll need. That reminds me, have your two scouting warriors also ready to join the attack as emergencies and / or to steal workers and / or to pillage that horse tile, so your bows can proceed straight to Beijing and deny Qin the chance to whip in a PRO archer.

(v) If the attack fails (which certainly isn’t my central scenario but of course Civ 4’s RNG gods might deem otherwise), don’t despair. You can always encourage Qin to take peace by sending in another bow (likely two) to pillage...and then look to tech IW / construction / feudalism and take him down.

(vi) If you run out of things to produce before you get to archery (assuming both cities already have a barracks), perhaps use the time to produce another worker which can be used to chop down another forest or two for more bows.

(vii) Once archery is in, have a think about your next tech. Fishing and pottery will help with commerce likely needed in the post war recovery and you may need to pop Beijing’s borders, so mysticism might be worth a shout. Once you’ve won and are waiting for war (EDIT: I mean whip) weariness to subside, consider using the time to produce another worker (eg. to connect your cities) or settler (if you see another stellar site) – either will stop you from regrowing into unhappiness.

Good luck! Look forward to seeing how you go.

learner gamer said:

(ii) IMHO, you’ll need to promote your early bowmen especially (which will have next to no chance against a full strength PRO archer initially) up the drill line, to at least try and partially negate Qin’s PRO trait. IMHO, save combat I for when your bows come up against a chariot or warrior.

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I don't think this is how the combat works. If I remember and understand the mechanics correctly, Drill allows for a chance to get a free hit on the opponent during which the opponent can't hit back. But to cause damage, the attacker must actually win the round. If the odds are heavily stacked against the attacker, he will likely not win the round and do no damage. And given Pro archers get a free Drill that negates Hammy's drill, I think it is better to go with Cover promotions when odds are poor and drill when odds are great (against warriors).

Drill is useful for mitigating damage taken during a combat round by weakening the enemy before actual combat begins, but can't be relied upon to even the odds in a bad situation.

All the other other points by Learner Gamer are solid and worth following. I wish you luck, Yahya.