Nobles' Club CX: Saladin of Arabia

The Oz-Man

The Oz-Man

Enter: The VAIKE!
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Messages
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Location
Dayton, Ohio
The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Saladin of Arabia, whom we last played in NC LXVII. The Arabs start with Mysticism and The Wheel, arguably two of the weaker starting techs. Sal can grab an early religion, but he usually needs food tech. At least your initial Worker will have something to do.
Saladin.jpg

  • Traits: Saladin is Spiritual and Protective. Spiritual allows for cheap Temples and Anarchy-free civics changes, making it a versatile trait that lends itself to just about any victory type. Protective gives Drill and City Garrison promotions to all Archery and Gunpowder units, along with cheap Walls and Castles. Sal is therefore suited to turtle up and go culture, but don't underestimate drafted Protective Rifles in the late game.
  • The UB: The Madrassa is a Library that gets double culture and can run two Priest specialists. Extra culture is always a good thing (especially on an early building that doubles its culture after 1000 years), and the Madrassa can also help fuel a prophet-based economy if you feel like doing something different.
    Madrassa.jpg

  • The UU: The Camel Archer is a Knight with no resource requirement and an innate 15% withdrawal chance. It's generally regarded as one of the weaker UU's since Guilds is often a backfill tech for many players, but if you don't have Horses or Iron, it can be used to secure those resources for a later Cuirassier or Cannon rush.
    CamelArcher.jpg

Here's our start:
NC_110_Saladin.png

Spoiler map details :
Good ol' Pangaea, Arid climate. Arid tends to generate a bit more brown and desert than other climates. Even so, you should be able to find some good land to settle.
Spoiler edits :
Extended the river to irrigate the Rice, which we probably don't need, but still. Swapped out a Protective leader in our backyard for a non-Protective one. Picked two civs specifically for Thanksgiving flavor. ;)
Spoiler leaders switched :
Qin swapped with Lincoln


Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
    continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing. Oh, and thanks to dalamb for organizing all of this; he leaves himself out of the standard doctrine, but darn it, he works hard and he deserves a nod here. :)
Click to expand...

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 110 Saladin Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 
Reserved for game stuffs.

I didn't realize when I'd agreed to do this one that the date fell so close to the Thanksgiving holiday, so I'm getting this up a little bit early this time--I still don't know what my plans are going to be for Friday and Saturday, and I don't want to commit myself to having to deal with this as well. So enjoy a few days early, and if you're celebrating tomorrow, don't eat too much. ;)
 
And that with me having not really much time today and tomorrow, although no holidays here in Europe over your Thanksgiving ... or more probably especially because of that:D

Thanks for the map, thoughts on start: Probably Moving warrior northwest to reveal northern tiles to see if 1N is worthwile one turn waiting, because 1N keeps both food ressources and fresh water in the BFC. Definitively no fear of starving here.

I'm doing probably an LP for this, if according to plan, first parts should be uploaded Saturday/Sunday.
 
I'll give a small BFC spoiler as well because apparently I hate sleep:

Spoiler :
There is one commerce-rich tile in the BFC that can be worked to help found an early religion. That's an approach you can try if you want to, but to be honest, I think it's a trap. ;)
 
I have question about Oracle. I am playing this on Immortal and it's turn 77.

Spoiler :
I opened Agri, Pottery and Writing, delaying BW really late. The land right around our cap has enough commerce to try for the Oracle. I founded Hinduism by accident! :lol:

Oracle choices I am seriously considering right now are HBR, Currency Metal Casting and Construction. I went down the whole Oracle song and dance because we are really squished in between Cyrus and Lincoln. I planned on Elepulting one of them via Construction from Oracle. But I teched Math easily enough. Now I am really tempted to take Currency cause it is so shiny. :blush:

My question is, if really crushed in on Immortal (and we are talking between the devil and deep blue sea levels of squished in here) with Jungle and two AIs surrounding us, is it worth taking Currency from Oracle instead of Construction?

Actually, now that I put my jumbled mess of thoughts into words, that's really stupid. Currency now will be cool and get me techs but still gets me stuck between the aforementioned D&D down the line. Construction it is! :goodjob:
 
Hello!

As you see I'm new in the forums and quite new in Civ 4 game too. I wish to improve my noobish gameplay so I decided to "join" the Nobles' Club. I've played in chieftain lvl, but won a couple of games in row so I'm gonna try warlord lvl.
Not so happy about leader (Saladin). I tried him before and I got rushed early by mighty Gilgamesh!:cry: I Hope that you give me some good advice. I'll post 1st round soon...
 
Construction if used right should get you currency in return for peace anyway. Unless I'm mistaken getting to construction first means the AI is more likely to research currency instead.
 
ben-jammin said:
Construction if used right should get you currency in return for peace anyway. Unless I'm mistaken getting to construction first means the AI is more likely to research currency instead.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any connection between your techs and what AI chooses to tech except for the wonder techs where they drop in the chance to be chosen (and the religion ones)
 
Smilingrogue said:
I have question about Oracle. I am playing this on Immortal and it's turn 77.

Spoiler :
I opened Agri, Pottery and Writing, delaying BW really late. The land right around our cap has enough commerce to try for the Oracle. I founded Hinduism by accident! :lol:

Oracle choices I am seriously considering right now are HBR, Currency Metal Casting and Construction. I went down the whole Oracle song and dance because we are really squished in between Cyrus and Lincoln. I planned on Elepulting one of them via Construction from Oracle. But I teched Math easily enough. Now I am really tempted to take Currency cause it is so shiny. :blush:

My question is, if really crushed in on Immortal (and we are talking between the devil and deep blue sea levels of squished in here) with Jungle and two AIs surrounding us, is it worth taking Currency from Oracle instead of Construction?

Actually, now that I put my jumbled mess of thoughts into words, that's really stupid. Currency now will be cool and get me techs but still gets me stuck between the aforementioned D&D down the line. Construction it is! :goodjob:
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
Definitely Construction if you're feeling the squeeze. I axe-rushed Lincoln in my playthrough, but this one screams for Elepult Reaping(TM). Honestly, if you got the Oracle at turn 77, you could probably just go Catapults and Axes and do well enough, even on Immortal, while you wait for expensive HBR to come in.
 
4000BC-975BC
Spoiler :
-I found buddhism
-I met cool Lincoln who came from east
-I explored map to SE and found Boudica. Nice...
-Stalin somewhere in SW
-Boudica found Hinduism. ARRGGH!!!This means that boudica will unfortunately be my target number 1.
-:confused:Weird unususal thing happened: "Barbarian uprising takes Boudica out on the map.:cry:
-I met Qin and Cyrus in the same turn!!
-Medina was founded
-Lincoln>Open borders, Stalin>I refused open borders
-Copper lays between me and Lincoln
-I made The Oracle>Iron Working
-Iron inside my borders,but I mentioned that Lincoln has iron too...
-I met Native American Sitting Bull

Ok that was my first round, but I have few questions:
1:How do I add screenshots of my game to messages
2:How to make an avatar

Ok thats it! Advice me! What went wrong? What to do next, Oz and others?
 
@ Robert FIN

Welcome to CFC! :)
Spoiler :

This is going to be said a lot around here, so let me get it out of the way. :p Founding early religions is not a great move. It means having to delay worker techs (Particularly bad for Saladin as his starting techs are poor). On multi-continent affairs, you will likely remove the biggest source of conflict for the other continent by restricting the number of religions they have. Even on Pangae, it is not a good idea as you want some one else to do all the religious heavy-lifting. (Missionary work and building the shrine) so you can take it all away from them at your convenience. :)

Open borders with everyone and refuse any demands to stop trading with some one. You lose nothing by granting OB like candy on Halloween and actually gain diplo relations and maybe even commerce from trade. Keeping borders closed makes it far more likely that warmongers like Stalin have nothing to like you for and makes them likely to declare on you. And never close borders when demanded by worst enemies as you slam the door pretty hard on the other guy for probably centuries of in-game time, losing commerce and tech trade opportunities.

I don't see why you needed Iron Working. On Warlord, the AI settles pretty slowly and you could have claimed some nice land between you and Lincoln and on the coast towards Cyrus. Oracling it is particularly baffling as you should have better choices and should look to get the best possible tech. Metal Casting, Currency and Code of Laws are often the best choices. Things do tend to be different based on circumstances, but can't go wrong with the three I mentioned. If you are particularly quick to tech and a bit lucky (Oracle is a very chancy wonder) you can take even bigger things like Feudalism and Civil Service. Just something to chew upon for your next play-through. :)

What to do next is obvious. You aren't going to let these vermin infest YOUR lands, are you? Build some swords and go stomp somebody. :p (Work towards Currency and Construction to ease the economic and military crunch that will come as the campaign progresses.)


To post pictures, you need to hit 'prtscr' on the screen you want to capture. This is automatically saved to your My Documents/Beyond the Sword/Screenshots folder. Upload them to some host (photobucket, imageshack, etc.) and insert them here using the [ /img] tags (without space).

When looking for advice, it is generally a good idea to post a save game so others can look at your situation and offer advice. (You can do so using the advanced posting options. The button "Manage attachments" helps you attach save games.)

Hope that helps and good luck with your game! :)
 
750BC
Spoiler :
Playing this on monarch/k-mod. Thoughts on city placement? which is obviously not ideal, poor tile sharing on my part - Mecca grew so fast with wet irrigated corn and rice that growing to size 4 seemed right, took 2 or 3 extra turns before switching to a settler. Americans founded NY before I got Medina out, Cyrus founded Susa before I got Damascus. Fourth city would have taken dye but Stalin got there so I took the tundra choice closer to Lincoln - needs a road, it's costing me, a mistake? There's another site by Stalin/Boudica and that would probably make both of them hate me for close borders. 4 workers, 5 cities, I'll get started on one more (at least?).
Spoiler :
map
qqboH.jpg
 
Leaving later than I thought today, so!

Monarch, Normal everything, no huts/events, 1690 CE Diplo win:

Spoiler :
Initial tech path avoided the early religion trap in lieu of Agriculture -> Mining -> BW -> Hunting -> AH (to find the horses). Second city was settled on the plains hill to the east to grab a resource I'd need to do... this.

MyPalSal_1.png


All of Lincoln's cities were razed. I have no idea why the RNG gave Lincoln the capital he did when the obvious site grabs the fish, cows, and rice.

I did some peaceful settling, hooked up the Marble, and got this:

MyPalSal_2.png


Still a tough row to hoe to get some serious Elepult Reaping(TM) going, but I got some Madrassas going and managed to trades Maths for some backfill.

The early factions shaped up to be Cyrus, Qin, and Stalin as the Jews, Boudica as the Buddhist, and Bull as the Hindu. My plan was to align with Boudica initially, since Stalin and Cyrus both built some nice wonders that I wanted. Then this happened:

MyPalSal_3.png


The first war with Boudica was rough. I had Elepults and a big army, but we shared a long, long border, and while I was sweeping through the west for the happiness resources, Boudica was going after my Washington replacement. She also bribed Saladin into the war, and I wasn't enjoying halting my catapult replacement builds to put up some Protective Archers. So I took the Buddhist holy city and got a tech for peace from both Boudica and Rich Uncle Joe.

Then I teched to Engineering (which was almost certainly a mistake) and did this:

MyPalSal_4.png


I targeted the slow techers in my attacks and delayed MT more than I should've, which allowed Qin and Cyrus to start moving toward a tech lead. But I really, really wanted the Pyramids, and I really, really wanted to put a hurtin' on Uncle Joe.

MyPalSal_5.png


He would capitulate early, but Moscow had the Pyramids, so I took care of that...

MyPalSal_6.png


I think my big mistake here was not just wiping out Stalin and Boudica. Domination would've been so, so much easier, but I was anticipating a quick and painless Diplomation. Everyone was Jewish except Sitting Bull, and he was quickly brought into the fold after a quick war/spreading Judaism to a captured city.

MyPalSal_7.png


This wasn't quite enough, so I went to Cyrus for the lucrative Jewish shrine and the AP, which I should've done before SB.

MyPalSal_8.png


All right so! Every AI now works for me except one! Let's see that Diplo win!

MyPalSal_9.png


... [pissed]

To make matters much, much worse... Qin had Rifling. I had completely forgotten Rule #1 of Earth18: Qin is a beast late in the game.

A century of missionary spam later, and every single city under my sphere of influence was Jewish. Let's try that again!

MyPalSal_10.png


Like I said--I should've gone for the much more straightforward Cuir Domination win after the initial Elepult Reaping(TM), which would've opened up more useful techs and led into getting Rifling earlier. Going all the way to Engineering slowed me down considerably.
 
Spoiler :
Ok! Thanks smiley! Just what I wanted: ADVICE FROM MASTERS!! But okay back to business...I've always thought that religion is the best way to get cash and run science with great prophets from wonders... like Oracle. I'm not sure how much do you understand my probably bad english. You are right about my bad Oracle-tech-choise... However i forgot to say that the chinaman found hinduism.HOLD ON A SECOND!! Boudica just found it. Well looks like that is possible too.. And what come to rushin' people out on the map. I am gonna charge Stalin or the vile chinese who researched polytheism. Good plan eh?
 
FIN et al. Dropbox is a good way to post pics easier than uploading them to an image site. It creates a directory on your harddrive. Copy the file to the public directory, right click on it and select dropbox->copy public link and paste that link between the img tags.
 
Smilingrogue said:
I have question about Oracle. I am playing this on Immortal and it's turn 77.

Spoiler :
I opened Agri, Pottery and Writing, delaying BW really late. The land right around our cap has enough commerce to try for the Oracle. I founded Hinduism by accident! :lol:

Oracle choices I am seriously considering right now are HBR, Currency Metal Casting and Construction. I went down the whole Oracle song and dance because we are really squished in between Cyrus and Lincoln. I planned on Elepulting one of them via Construction from Oracle. But I teched Math easily enough. Now I am really tempted to take Currency cause it is so shiny. :blush:

My question is, if really crushed in on Immortal (and we are talking between the devil and deep blue sea levels of squished in here) with Jungle and two AIs surrounding us, is it worth taking Currency from Oracle instead of Construction?

Actually, now that I put my jumbled mess of thoughts into words, that's really stupid. Currency now will be cool and get me techs but still gets me stuck between the aforementioned D&D down the line. Construction it is! :goodjob:
Click to expand...

I'm also playing on Immortal and..

Spoiler :
I'm so surprised about the oracle date in my game was kicking myself for not trying for it, but because I didn't, I had a pretty easy time expanding to be honest. I took screens if it helps you out somewhat (I am a few weeks rusty and not the best player but these cities work for me)

Spoiler :
343sz92.jpg

Spoiler :
2je4pyb.jpg


If I remember rightly I settled in this order Mecca->Medina->Damascus->Baghdad->Najran->Kufah->Basra->Khurasan->Anjar->Fustat

Tech order was strange for me too something like Agriculture->hunting->archery->mining->BW->IW to get the gems and jungle cities going.

Yes I know I didn't get copper with 2nd city but I was going to settle 1NE of rice to get the ivory and copper but Lincoln beat me to it no biggie. Thoughts on my own game coasting to Lib pretty easily can't see anyone beating me there everyone is smaller than me and a few civs have been in war for quite a while or only just finished fighting so will probably cuirs stomp Stalin and Cyrus pretty quickly then probably just continue while teching to cavs tbh. Fun game so far ;)
 
I haven't finished my game yet, but I just wanted to comment on how surprisingly useful Arabia's UU and UB have been for me (I've never played as them before).

The Madrassa has been a huge help. Those two Priest slots allowed me to pop a few Great Prophets right off the bat, build shrines for the religions I managed to found and bulbing Theology for AP (as well as Theocracy, a civic I ordinarily avoid but with SPI it's suddenly a lot more attractive... and Christianity so I could get another shrine...). Double the culture of a normal library, plus 2 Priest slots on top of the 2 Scientists... I'd never thought much of the Madrassa one way or the other but this game has taught me it's a cool little building. Saladin definitely seems geared to religious play, with shrine income + cathedrals (if going culture). If only he were CRE instead of PRO (for those 2x build Madrassas)

As for the UU, well...

Spoiler :
I agree with the OP's assessment: The Camel Archer is really quite underwhelming. However, in this game, where I didn't have any Horses around whatsoever, I began to see their value. I ended up making Guilds a higher priority than normal anyway, because I wanted to get gold multiplier buildings up and running sooner rather than later to take advantage of all that sweet, sweet shrine income, so a tech that's on the way to Banking and allows Grocers wasn't too much of a stretch. Man am I glad I did. Camel Archers and Trebs made mincemeat out of Boudica, and once I'd stolen her Horses, I upgraded them to Cuirs and decimated Cyrus. Sometimes you need Horses to get Horses, and that's where Camel Archers come in handy. Still not an A-list UU by any means, but I got a fair amount of mileage out of them on this map.
 
@ Tommah

Spoiler :
I had four cities by the time I had Oracle and could have settled three more towards the Tundra and Jungle. But settling there when we have Ivory and a peacenik Abe next door? The war monger in me would never let me live it down. :p
 
Smilingrogue said:
I have question about Oracle. I am playing this on Immortal and it's turn 77.

Spoiler :
I opened Agri, Pottery and Writing, delaying BW really late. The land right around our cap has enough commerce to try for the Oracle. I founded Hinduism by accident! :lol:

Oracle choices I am seriously considering right now are HBR, Currency Metal Casting and Construction. I went down the whole Oracle song and dance because we are really squished in between Cyrus and Lincoln. I planned on Elepulting one of them via Construction from Oracle. But I teched Math easily enough. Now I am really tempted to take Currency cause it is so shiny. :blush:

My question is, if really crushed in on Immortal (and we are talking between the devil and deep blue sea levels of squished in here) with Jungle and two AIs surrounding us, is it worth taking Currency from Oracle instead of Construction?

Actually, now that I put my jumbled mess of thoughts into words, that's really stupid. Currency now will be cool and get me techs but still gets me stuck between the aforementioned D&D down the line. Construction it is! :goodjob:
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
Man, congrats on oracle that late. I hate getting it that late; it's way too much of a gamble even on emperor the median time is around then, and obviously anything slightly faster and you'd have lost it...on EMP lol)

Anyway, take construction if you plan on using elephants/pults. The faster you hit, the less chance you see longbows, crossbows, and other unsavory things that muck up a rush.

I went the construction route also, though no oracle. I simply went AG ---> Pottery ---> BW while worker stealing lincoln. I grabbed IW to work double gems then shot straight to construction ---> HBR. With math-boosted chops in capitol and surrounding cities I had a >20 unit force a bit after 500 BC easily. OF COURSE, Qin declared on me for no apparent reason, which I walled easily. Then Stalin declared on me, but I really wanted to hit Cyrus first so for a little bit I was fighting 3 AI (Qin accepted peace treaty w/o me giving him anything shortly after I DoW Cyrus).

I had walls on Stalin border, and he didn't want to throw his 8 units into a walled city with 5 protective archers. That city alone basically held him off. I then just swept cyrus with elepult/sword + continued to Stalin. I left them each with at least 1 city, so that I could gain multiple powerful technologies from them.

From Cyrus: Currency, aesthetics, meditation
From Stalin: Metal Casting, Monarchy, Code of Laws, some minor techs.

Stalin war ended in the ~600 AD to 700 AD range. Basically game over; those wars went well and I got so much in the way of tech from them that even though my western border could declare on me I could hold it easily.

Comically, I've still won lib too :rolleyes:.

 
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