If you don't have G&K, unless you are a hardened civ player who somehow makes everything work (NOT ME), chances are the overwhelming maintinence costs will get to you first before a barbaric neighbor will. It happened to me too, so dont be ashamed. Luckily, I have discovered a great way to keep your economy not only surviving, but thriving. A thriving economy leads to large armies and rapid science achievements. Whether your economy thrives like the rest of the underdog AIs depends on the most important aspect in G&K: Religion. Settle a city ASAP, and research pottery. Then, build a shrine. When you get enough faith, acquire the belief that gets you GPT for each city as your religion, or which ever belief gets you gpt. This WILL yield a gold mine of cash. Also, complete the social policy tradition. Free buildings in cities cut maintinence ALOT and will be very beneficial. Then, make your way to commerce and the rest is history. Be sure to also have an abundance of luxury sources, as these will help a bunch. even if you don't you will still be fine with the religion beliefs. Any other money making strategies will also help, but most of the time, this will help give your economy a lasting jump start. hope it works!
The key to economic salvation on emperor
- Thread starter Mike III
- Start date
If you don't have G&K, unless you are a hardened civ player who somehow makes everything work (NOT ME), chances are the overwhelming maintinence costs will get to you first before a barbaric neighbor will. It happened to me too, so dont be ashamed. Luckily, I have discovered a great way to keep your economy not only surviving, but thriving. A thriving economy leads to large armies and rapid science achievements. Whether your economy thrives like the rest of the underdog AIs depends on the most important aspect in G&K: Religion. Settle a city ASAP, and research pottery. Then, build a shrine. When you get enough faith, acquire the belief that gets you GPT for each city as your religion, or which ever belief gets you gpt. This WILL yield a gold mine of cash. Also, complete the social policy tradition. Free buildings in cities cut maintinence ALOT and will be very beneficial. Then, make your way to commerce and the rest is history. Be sure to also have an abundance of luxury sources, as these will help a bunch. even if you don't you will still be fine with the religion beliefs. Any other money making strategies will also help, but most of the time, this will help give your economy a lasting jump start. hope it works!
budweiser
King of the Beers
I find that going tall with about three cities is good for generating a healthy amount of coin. A 20 and two 15s can really bring in some cash with the right commerce buildings up and running. Then you can spread out from there for more trade route income. Just keep the cap at max size as much as you can.
Some issues of economic are dumb luck. Starting resources affect economics greatly: the gold-per-turn for a couple tiles of gems (especially along a river) can be all you need, sometimes. And rivers alone add one gold-per-turn for whatever tiles are along them.
Often, if I have a lot of river tiles, that alone is enough to stave off economic stagnation, though it might not give me much extra.
Often, if I have a lot of river tiles, that alone is enough to stave off economic stagnation, though it might not give me much extra.
that is true. i adopted this strategy because i was sick of doing a trading post economy. There was little land left to use for other important stuff, and popping commerce did NOTHING. one day i took a religious belief for gpt and my economy was the best. Lux sources and rivers help, but 1 belief determines your economic fate, followed by how long you live on emperor difficulty.
Magma_Dragoon
Reploid
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 2,354
So you're saying to make lots of gold we should... make lots of gold?
dashwinner
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 320
i've been thinking about this for a while... is tithe really a better choice than the other religious choice that automatically gives +2 per city? I mean obviously your own main cities might grow large enough to make it worth it, but for the cities you conquer/puppet/settle in the later stage of the game, what are the chances that they'll reach the 8+ religious followers that tithe would require to become the better choice?
You make a good point that is worth considering.
Even the +100 gold for first city conversions is a reasonable option in some cases. Tithe is probably the best for a tall civ (and tall civs usually do better than wide civs, at least on Emperor difficulty), while +2 gold per city is obviously best for wide civs or civs that expect to export their religion efficiently. After all, to get the most out of Tithe, you really have to wait, like you said, until later on, while the other GPT founder beliefs come into play more immediately. And again, a one-time infusion of +100 gold may sound weak in the long run at first, but that's a quick +100 gold that can help buy early settlers and earlier buildings, so long as you produce faith reasonably quickly. Earlier boosts, even when somewhat smaller, are always better than bigger boosts later on.
From personal experience, I can say Tithe is the most effective founder belief that involves GPT in any situation where it's unlikely my religion will overpower anyone else's, since my Holy City will be tough to convert without enemy missionaries or a great prophet and since my Holy City is likely to be the most populated city. This is often the case on Emperor, where the AI may beat your faith production easily unless you're a faith-centric civ (Ethiopia with the UB, the Celts with practically everything unique to them, Siam with their UA, or the Mayans with their UB). Ultimately, Tithe is probably better 70% of the time when playing on Emperor, simply because by the time you expand well enough to use the other founder beliefs for gold (or export your religion well enough) the game will already be decided pretty well in your favor.
Just IMO, though. I've never crunched the numbers on this one.
Tithe does not require that the 4 followers be in the same city. One of Tithe's main advantages is that random numbers of followers in your cities (9 followers here and 11 followers there) and in other cities where your religion is not in the majority (1 follower here, 2 followers there, etc.) add up to large numbers, and get aggregated for purposes of the bonus.
The three gold-giving founder beliefs all have their advantages. Initiation Rights gives you 100 gold when a city first converts (equal to 50 turns of Church Property), but nothing thereafter, so it is best when you want/need that upfront gold (perhaps to rush-buy more settlers, units or science/culture buildings) and have something else coming along (like trade routes, TP spam and Machu Piccu?) that will get you replacement gpt in the mid and late game. It is also helpful if you find yourself coming late to the religion party; if other civs religions are already well-entrenched with high pressures when you are able to found your religion, you might take Initiation Rights with the intention of spamming out Great Prophets to convert nearby cities, recognizing that they will probably convert back before you get 50 turns of Church Property benefits (in fact, in those circumstances, that might be a better use for your second Great Prophet than enhancing your religion).
Church Property does usually provide more gold during the earlier part of the game, but it is limited to cities in which your religion is in the majority and (obviously) is capped at 2 gold per city. So, Church Property over-rewards for small pop cities, which is great for as long as that lasts, but doesn't scale over time. I find that by the time my religion is in 15-20+ cities, Tithe (particularly with Itinerant Preachers) has often outstripped what Church Property would have provided. In general, Tithe should provide the most gold over the course of the game, but more back-loaded than Church Property and far more back-loaded than Initiation Rights. Timing of gold can be as important as the amount.
The three gold-giving founder beliefs all have their advantages. Initiation Rights gives you 100 gold when a city first converts (equal to 50 turns of Church Property), but nothing thereafter, so it is best when you want/need that upfront gold (perhaps to rush-buy more settlers, units or science/culture buildings) and have something else coming along (like trade routes, TP spam and Machu Piccu?) that will get you replacement gpt in the mid and late game. It is also helpful if you find yourself coming late to the religion party; if other civs religions are already well-entrenched with high pressures when you are able to found your religion, you might take Initiation Rights with the intention of spamming out Great Prophets to convert nearby cities, recognizing that they will probably convert back before you get 50 turns of Church Property benefits (in fact, in those circumstances, that might be a better use for your second Great Prophet than enhancing your religion).
Church Property does usually provide more gold during the earlier part of the game, but it is limited to cities in which your religion is in the majority and (obviously) is capped at 2 gold per city. So, Church Property over-rewards for small pop cities, which is great for as long as that lasts, but doesn't scale over time. I find that by the time my religion is in 15-20+ cities, Tithe (particularly with Itinerant Preachers) has often outstripped what Church Property would have provided. In general, Tithe should provide the most gold over the course of the game, but more back-loaded than Church Property and far more back-loaded than Initiation Rights. Timing of gold can be as important as the amount.
Bandobras Took
Emperor
Yes they can, tithe can hold it's own with CP right from the beginning. I find that most of my really early gold comes from those isolated believers. Then the cap and core cities take over and get most of my gold, and if there was room to expand the religion into CS and neighbors then this makes the bulk of tithe gold in later game.
CP will be better on iCS style maps but I usually go with 3-5 city core, quite tall so it fits my style.
CP will be better on iCS style maps but I usually go with 3-5 city core, quite tall so it fits my style.
budweiser
King of the Beers
Hmm, thanks for the thread. It got me to thinking, I usually dont take a money pick in my religion, but now I realize the Church does need money, especially if you need to buy lots of fancy buildings for your cultural victories.
Tachii
Procrastinator
Tithe>Church Property most of the time, if not all the time. You can often hover over the bonus of Tithe and it always seem to surpass Church Property - mostly because as said the 4 followers doesn't have to be in the same city - pretty much you don't even have to worry if it's a dominant religion or not. Just make 1-2 missionary and let religious texts/itinerant preachers do the rest.
But imo religion is not even needed. As long as you build markets relatively early you should be fine. And yes Tradition helps a lot with that. Also puppeting cities will trump Tithe most of the time unless you're actually playing as Pacal/Ethiopia/Celts that have faith bonuses. I mean, one puppet capital could be making like 20+ gold once you get trading posts. That's quite a lot for that time period.
But imo religion is not even needed. As long as you build markets relatively early you should be fine. And yes Tradition helps a lot with that. Also puppeting cities will trump Tithe most of the time unless you're actually playing as Pacal/Ethiopia/Celts that have faith bonuses. I mean, one puppet capital could be making like 20+ gold once you get trading posts. That's quite a lot for that time period.
markets dont cut it on emperor. trading posts with popped commerce barely keep the economy above water. religious beliefs for gpt to me are the only way. religion is the biggest life saver and made attempting harder difficulties possible economically wothout having to be an MLG civ diety pro.
Magma_Dragoon
Reploid
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- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 2,354
I disagree:
trade route equation from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=438745
1.1pᵤ + n(0.15pᵥ - 1)
n number of trade routes
pᵤ total pop in not the capital city (in cities with routes)
pᵥ pop in capital
Once the capital is pop 6, each pop in any other cities adds 2 gpt. Hence, the best gold improvement is the irrigated farm. If you have 9 cities adding a pop to the capital nets more gpt than growing a satellite city.
Therefore, ceremonial burial nets more gpt than church property. There is a delay in growing into that pop, but you get the added benefit of the yield from that citizen.
trade route equation from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=438745
1.1pᵤ + n(0.15pᵥ - 1)
n number of trade routes
pᵤ total pop in not the capital city (in cities with routes)
pᵥ pop in capital
Once the capital is pop 6, each pop in any other cities adds 2 gpt. Hence, the best gold improvement is the irrigated farm. If you have 9 cities adding a pop to the capital nets more gpt than growing a satellite city.
Therefore, ceremonial burial nets more gpt than church property. There is a delay in growing into that pop, but you get the added benefit of the yield from that citizen.
that helps as well. i will adnit you do get good money from that. but new cities are extremely weak. they wont have very many buildings at all to get them nore profitable. maybe taking cities(if possible) would help. church property, tithe, trade routes, and other money making tricks should help.
