Why was Judaism replaced with Zoroastrianism?

I downloaded this mod awhile ago and have been kind of confused as the why Zoroastrianism replaces Judaism. I understand that Zoroastrianism is a big deal and fire axis was getting death threats over it.

But why does Zoroastrianism replace Judaism why not just add it. There are 3 different Christiananitys.

I am sorry I am not trying to offend anyone, I am just used to seeing Judaism in the game.

Due to the (relatively) little influence that Judaism has had on the history of civilization outside of Israel, it was decided to replace it with Zoroastrianism, and represent Judaism with the Temple of Solomon.

The three branches of Christianity have all had major impacts upon the history of the world and the world today, and can be represented in a way which adds to the flavor of the mod. Judaism, on the other hand, would only be added to 3-4 cities at any given time, and have little impact upon the game.

Then again, I didn't make the game or the mod, so I could be completely wrong. This was not meant to prejudiced, insulting or hurtful in any way, so please don't flame me if I have said anything that could be taken in the wrong way.

No civilization in game was truly Jewish. In addition, it often overspread and became the major religion of classical Europe in vanilla RFC, quite unrealistic.

Zoroastrianism, on the other hand, was the religion of Persia, who controlled much of their area. It is then realistically eliminated when Arabia takes the area.

Anyways, technically Judaism was replaced by Protestantism, and Zoroastrianism was added on. Eventually Orthodoxy was added as well. So to make the argument that Judaism should be in compare it to Protestantism, with only 7 religions.

There is no good gameplay reason for the inclusion of Judaism--it doesn't add anything to the mod as it stands. Additionally, there were no civilizations in the game that historically followed Judaism, and a realistic mod would have Judaism limited to only a handful of cities.

Zoroastrianism, in addition to the historical argument in its favor, has two major gameplay reasons for inclusion. First, it blocks the early westward expansion of Hinduism and Buddhism, preventing the Classical civs from converting to eastern religions. Second, it ensures that the Pantheon wonders are much less available to Persia, who might otherwise have a much easier time with their UHV and dominate the early wonders.

An argument could made that one of Confucianism or Taoism should be excluded as they add little to gameplay separately, but historically it is nice to at least represent the syncretism of China with two religions.

SheaferDaDawg said:

Judaism, on the other hand, would only be added to 3-4 cities at any given time, and have little impact upon the game.

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Have you played RFC Europe or SoI? Judaism can make a meaningful impact on the game with the right mechanism - not a state religion, but an influential minority.

It's also arguable that Judaism has had a pretty big impact on the history of philosophy and the contemporary Middle East....

SeekTruthFromFacts said:

Have you played RFC Europe or SoI? Judaism can make a meaningful impact on the game with the right mechanism - not a state religion, but an influential minority.

It's also arguable that Judaism has had a pretty big impact on the history of philosophy and the contemporary Middle East....

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I agree with this, the way RFCEurope treats Judaism and the minor religions mechanic of SoI make Judaism realistic and useful. But maybe in DoC it's not going to add much.

Or not! Judaism could have an enhanced spread in late game. The Dutch and the US could have an influx of Judaism. In more conceptual terms, Judaism could spread to more tolerant nations (civics), historical areas (Poland, Netherlands, US) and game time (late game). It could be treated as a Minor Religion (RFCE and SoI) with a related building (Jewish Quarter ).

If there is room to it, I think this could be a nice addition to the mod.

SeekTruthFromFacts said:

Have you played RFC Europe or SoI? Judaism can make a meaningful impact on the game with the right mechanism - not a state religion, but an influential minority.

It's also arguable that Judaism has had a pretty big impact on the history of philosophy and the contemporary Middle East....

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Bit of an understatement there imo... Other than Greeks, no other people has (If you consider Christianity derived greatly from Judaism) had more influence on the foundations of Western Civilization, which has had far more global impact any other.

Though I agree it makes little gameplay sense as a major Religion without Israel in, but I'd like to see it as a corporation-type mechanic.

I don't see any disadvantage, gameplay or otherwise, not to have more Religions tbh. It's not like they cause lag or disrupt how events play out.

Minor religions, with holy city only founded on first Cathedral building so they could easily dissappear - E.g:

Sinkhs - Founded when a Hindu Civilization builds a Islamic Minaret
Jains - Founded on Hindu Temple, Buddhism founded on Jain Monastery
Judaism - Autofounded on Temple of Solamon
Baha'i - Founded on first Muslim Cathedral

ect. ect.

Just in case it had been missed, Zoroastrianism survives in the 'real world' to the present day, in the Indian religion of Parseeism. (The word 'Parsee' comes from the same root as our word 'Persia', and this religion was brought to western India by Persian emigrants/refugees). Wikipedia gives current number of adherents at around 100,000.

Yudishtira said:

Just in case it had been missed, Zoroastrianism survives in the 'real world' to the present day, in the Indian religion of Parseeism. (The word 'Parsee' comes from the same root as our word 'Persia', and this religion was brought to western India by Persian emigrants/refugees). Wikipedia gives current number of adherents at around 100,000.

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It's not only in India. There are a few Zoroastrians left in Iran, though they're heavily persecuted. And there are a lot more Iranian Zoroastrians in the US and scattered across Europe (and some recent emigrants in India, too). The Indian Zoroastrians usually call themselves Parsees, but the Iranians use the old term.

However, it is all but extinct in the modern era, certainly when compared to the other religions in the game (and even compared to Judaism). While I think there maybe should be some chance for Zoroastrianism to survive if Persia does not collapse on the 3000 BC start, having Zoroastrianism disappear from all cities but the holy city seems appropriate to me.

Also, I recently played a 600 AD game where the Iranians started spreading Zoroastrianism to all of their cities and even to cities outside of their territory with missionaries, though they stayed Muslim. So there's a slight chance for a revival of sorts in-game. (It would be really interesting to play as Iran with a challenge of reviving Zoroastrianism as a major world religion.)

Pavel Chichikov said:

Bit of an understatement there imo... Other than Greeks, no other people has (If you consider Christianity derived greatly from Judaism) had more influence on the foundations of Western Civilization, which has had far more global impact any other.

Though I agree it makes little gameplay sense as a major Religion without Israel in, but I'd like to see it as a corporation-type mechanic.

I don't see any disadvantage, gameplay or otherwise, not to have more Religions tbh. It's not like they cause lag or disrupt how events play out.

Minor religions, with holy city only founded on first Cathedral building so they could easily dissappear - E.g:

Sinkhs - Founded when a Hindu Civilization builds a Islamic Minaret
Jains - Founded on Hindu Temple, Buddhism founded on Jain Monastery
Judaism - Autofounded on Temple of Solamon
Baha'i - Founded on first Muslim Cathedral

ect. ect.

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Personally, I like this idea. I don't see the downside of adding in some minor religions that only spread to a few cities and can't be the state religion. They would add some nice flavour to the game by adding some associated buildings/bonuses. I think a SoI/RFCE-esque implementation would be appropriate for DoC, that is, they auto-spread to a few cities and when/if they get persecuted they "flee" somewhere else. Some of these religions have had a fair amount of impact on local nations and I think that DoC would be better if they were added. Besides, I was raised Sikh (kinda), alas I am a bit biased.

Yudishtira said:

Just in case it had been missed, Zoroastrianism survives in the 'real world' to the present day, in the Indian religion of Parseeism. (The word 'Parsee' comes from the same root as our word 'Persia', and this religion was brought to western India by Persian emigrants/refugees). Wikipedia gives current number of adherents at around 100,000.

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Freddie Mercury was Parsi.

I also support the idea of minor religions: my main concern would be seeing Jewish Arabia or Byzantium, which would harm the historicity and gameplay of the mod. Sorry if I sounded like I don't believe that Judaism isn't important; I just was concerned about it's status as a religion in game.

Perhaps fears of a Jewish Byzantium or Arabia can be allayed by not allowing civs to have a minor religion as their state religion.

Hightower said:

It's not only in India. There are a few Zoroastrians left in Iran, though they're heavily persecuted. And there are a lot more Iranian Zoroastrians in the US and scattered across Europe (and some recent emigrants in India, too). The Indian Zoroastrians usually call themselves Parsees, but the Iranians use the old term.

However, it is all but extinct in the modern era, certainly when compared to the other religions in the game (and even compared to Judaism). While I think there maybe should be some chance for Zoroastrianism to survive if Persia does not collapse on the 3000 BC start, having Zoroastrianism disappear from all cities but the holy city seems appropriate to me.

Also, I recently played a 600 AD game where the Iranians started spreading Zoroastrianism to all of their cities and even to cities outside of their territory with missionaries, though they stayed Muslim. So there's a slight chance for a revival of sorts in-game. (It would be really interesting to play as Iran with a challenge of reviving Zoroastrianism as a major world religion.)

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Why even. There are around 18 million people around the world who identify as Jews, 6m in Israel, 12m around the world.
I don't think having Zoraostrianism dissappear from all cities but the founding one is approriate at all, for gameplay and history reasons. Zoraostrianism converts to Babylon or Greece and then Persia collapses. Also Arabia would auto-persecute the cities anyway under normal events. So poor game design and intrusive scripting.

Food for though: If the Roman Empire didn't adopt Christianity, a eventual Emperor would have almost certainly promoted Mithraism or Judaism instead to promote unity/stability as the pagan cults died out.

Also their were very many Jews in the Hejaz during Mohammeds lifetime, though the Qu'ran itself records how by the end of his life they were practically all massacred or had emigrated to Yemen or Ethiopia.

Lennon789 said:

Perhaps fears of a Jewish Byzantium or Arabia can be allayed by not allowing civs to have a minor religion as their state religion.

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I support this idea. Minor religions should only spread automatically (no missionaries) and be limited to not being state religions. That way, fears of Jewish Arabia or Egypt or Byzantium wouldn't be a problem. Minor religions should just add flavour. IMO, historicity is more important than treating minor religions like major ones.

Pavel Chichikov said:

Why even. There are around 18 million people around the world who identify as Jews, 6m in Israel, 12m around the world.
I don't think having Zoraostrianism dissappear from all cities but the founding one is approriate at all, for gameplay and history reasons. Zoraostrianism converts to Babylon or Greece and then Persia collapses. Also Arabia would auto-persecute the cities anyway under normal events. So poor game design and intrusive scripting.

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I don't see your point. So, the game models things marginally differently from real history with regards to Zoroastrianism. So what? It's virtually the same. As to how many Jews there are today... So? For one, 18M is a tiny number compared to all of the other religions included, save Zoroastrianism, so it's hardly a rationale for inclusion. It might be a rationale for excluding both, except that Zoroastrianism once had the adherence of about 10% of the world population. Judaism has never had more than ~1% of the world's population at most. It was also never a state religion of any society from Hellenic times to the modern day.*

Food for though: If the Roman Empire didn't adopt Christianity, a eventual Emperor would have almost certainly promoted Mithraism or Judaism instead to promote unity/stability as the pagan cults died out.

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Haha, no. This is the pinnacle of historical stupidity. The Romans adopt Judaism "for stability"? They never would have even considered it. Mithraism was never coherent enough a belief system to be taken seriously as a state religion, either--most importantly, it didn't have an educated priestly class who might be a source of order. But Judaism as the Roman state religion is exceptionally laughable. At least Mithraism had some adherents in the Roman elite.

Also their were very many Jews in the Hejaz during Mohammeds lifetime, though the Qu'ran itself records how by the end of his life they were practically all massacred or had emigrated to Yemen or Ethiopia.

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1. Don't see why this is important.
2. "Very many" is an exaggeration. There were more Christians and Zoroastrians than Jews in the area, though all three religions were represented. They were also all outnumbered by local Arab pantheistic religions.


*Please don't bring up the Khazars; it will just make you look stupid. Suffice to say that there were very few Jews in the actual Khazar state; nearly every citizen was Christian, Muslim or pagan. Only the upper nobility were Jewish, and only because claiming Judaism allowed them to diplomatically balance Muslims and Christians. (No modern Jews would recognize their practices as Jewish.)

I think you just topped me for use of unnecessarily over-the-top agressive language when debating historical quibbles... Jews were around 10% of the population of the late (post-Constantine) Roman Empire, not a small number.
Like I maintiain before, there's no reason to not include more religions, they don't cause lag, don't much alter gameplay and would add much flavour.

A lot of conjectures seem like "the pinnacle of historical stupidity" when seen in hindsight. Any state adoption of Christianity especially would have been seen as ridicolous for centuries. Early Christianity still had many strong Jewish characteristics, and was even not uncommonly seen a Jewish sect until the Roman destruction of Yerushalayam.

Pavel Chichikov said:

Jews were around 10% of the population of the late (post-Constantine) Roman Empire, not a small number.

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What an amusingly inventive statistic! You must be counting all Christian sects in that number!

Pavel Chichikov said:

I think you just topped me for use of unnecessarily over-the-top agressive language when debating historical quibbles... Jews were around 10% of the population of the late (post-Constantine) Roman Empire, not a small number.
Like I maintiain before, there's no reason to not include more religions, they don't cause lag, don't much alter gameplay and would add much flavour.

A lot of conjectures seem like "the pinnacle of historical stupidity" when seen in hindsight. Any state adoption of Christianity especially would have been seen as ridicolous for centuries. Early Christianity still had many strong Jewish characteristics, and was even not uncommonly seen a Jewish sect until the Roman destruction of Yerushalayam.

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"Why not" isn't the right question, the question is "Why?" Why does DoC need *more* flavor? Why include something that serves no gameplay purpose and might further confuse the player in an already complex and confusing modmod?

Another reason to not include Judaism: It causes flamewars, constantly.

*Not the people, not the religion, the discussion surrounding it.*