Invisible Units (Rogues etc.) Answers Thread

I'm hoping this thread will over time develop into one that answers all questions about invisible units.

So far, I've found out that (please do correct me if I have any of these 'facts' wrong ):
1. Rogues can be seen by dog units and other invisible units. Other animals and animal units can't currently see them.

2. If one of your units can see a rogue, all the others can see them also. You can use a stronger/better-promoted/more expendable unit to attack them allowing your dog/rogue to live to discover a rogue another day.

3. If a unit moves onto the same tile as a rogue, nothing happens (unless it is from a civ that can see that rogue). However, if a rogue moves onto a tile with a unit of any other civ, combat ensues - it can't do this invisibly. However:

- this is not always the case in cities. A rogue can enter an enemy city without engaging any units in the city.

Which brings me to my two current questions:
Q1: Can a rogue enter a foreign city (with units in it):
- only if its civ has Open Borders with the city's civ; or
- only if its civ is not at war with that civ; or
- at any time regardless

Answer: the best (only) answer so far is that a rogue can enter a city as long as no unit in the city can see it (thanks DH). DH does not seem entirely sure, so if anyone else can confirm this, or has a confident opinion on this, I'd love to hear from them

Q2: How do you get rid of a foreign rogue in one of your cities?
- by cancelling Open Borders (I don't think so); or
- by declaring war (on everyone as you don't know who the rogue belongs to); or
- there's just no way to do it

Answer: DH's answer (thanks DH) is that there is no way to get rid of a foreign rogue in your city. As a result of that answer, I'm afraid I have to add some more questions... (see Q4 & Q5)

StrategyOnly (thanks SO) has raised the option that, if you have the 'Opportunity Fire' option in RevDCM enabled, and have attacking siege weapons (cats/trebs/ballistae I presume), they can attack invisible units in your cities. Not sure about this personally. More details as they come to hand, as they say.

Q3: Just out of curiosity, and possibly as something for you to think about, can a rogue visit a civ that does not have contact with its civ? Or does its visit trigger contact even though one civ is unaware of its presence?

Q4: You can't do anything about rogues once they're in your cities: is this seen as a bug or problem by the development team, and if so, is anything being done about it?

Answer (thanks JosEph II): It is not seen as a problem - just build anti-crime and wait till he gets bored and leaves

(However I did see a comment in another thread that someone was looking at the possibility of a mechanic for forcing the rogue out)

Q5: What can a rogue do in your city? He will cause the crime rate to rise just by being there - can he do anything else eg. missions like a spy or assassin?

Answer (thanks JosEPh II): Rogues can't do spy/assassin-style missions - they only raise the crime rate

(Note to self: so the haemorrhage from my treasury is either due to the said crime rate, or is for some other reason entirely)

Edited to add that there is a whole variety of other units with which you can have similar problems. Aoklo (thanks aoklo) points out that there is a range of bandit units, as well as a 'Warlord Chief' - these can also enter your cities if you don't have dogs.

My experience is
Q1 - any time that no unit in the city can see it.
Q2 - you can't

Q4: It's been discussed. Consensus was, you'll just have to wait for the rogue to move out then attack it.

Q5: Just raise crime. But that can be countered by crime reducing Bldgs and/or Units.

JosEPh

Q5: NEVER leave crime units in your own cities, they were specifically designed to be moved out of your territory and sent to bother someone else's cities.

I think the Rogue can also be "gifted" the the city its in. However I have no idea why you would "gift" a rogue to another civilization.

There was a time when I moving around and accidently clicked gift when the icon moved to the left...
I dont see why bandit units like bandit rider and footman, warlord chief can enter enemy cities. It doesnt make sense and it allows them to heal inside and attack things outside and head back in for complete safety, not to mention raising crime levels. There is nothing you can do to stop it if they get inside.
Rogues/thieves/assassins make more sense since they can be stealthy.

Maybe you can have watchmen/guard units have a chance to catch criminals standing in your city (like spy detection).
You can have it so if the city has a lot of crime it becomes harder to detect, but if it has negative crime it is easier for the criminals to be found.

@aoklo

That's why you build dogs for your city.

Bandit units like Bandit Rider arent camo, what does dogs have to do with them? I mean even against camo units like rogues, the dogs cannot initiate an attack on a unit inside the city.

JosEPh_II said:

Q4: It's been discussed. Consensus was, you'll just have to wait for the rogue to move out then attack it.JosEPh

Click to expand...

Or build "throwing" siege weapons, and have opportunity fire on (LadyBUG) opton, it will make them move or die.

strategyonly said:

Or build "throwing" siege weapons, and have opportunity fire on (LadyBUG) opton, it will make them move or die.

Click to expand...

Could you please explain in more detail how to do this. Is it (opportunity fire) an option in v27 as is, or is it an additional modmod?

Yudishtira said:

Could you please explain in more detail how to do this. Is it (opportunity fire) an option in v27 as is, or is it an additional modmod?

Click to expand...

See attached screenie.

Thanks SO. Of course I'm miles eons from cats or whatever, but it's good to know (will add it to OP).

A funny thing happened just now. A rogue left my city and set off for another one. So he was 2 tiles from my nearest units, with a forest in between, yet I could see him and get rid. I also just lost a rogue to the Romans while he was across the border in English territory and nowhere near their dogs, so I don't know what's going on (and wonder if anyone does...)

lol to stop thieves in our cities, we must bombard it with rocks! But wait, does bombardment actually kill units? Ive had some opportunity fires before but it only did damage. If it only does a bit of damage it will just heal it back in the city.

Yudishtira said:

Thanks SO. Of course I'm miles eons from cats or whatever, but it's good to know (will add it to OP).

A funny thing happened just now. A rogue left my city and set off for another one. So he was 2 tiles from my nearest units, with a forest in between, yet I could see him and get rid. I also just lost a rogue to the Romans while he was across the border in English territory and nowhere near their dogs, so I don't know what's going on (and wonder if anyone does...)

Click to expand...

Correct, if your sometime within range of a city that has "certain" buildings (I believe) you can see so many tiles away (Koshling can say it better than me). I am not that good with wording, ADDHD. sorry.

aoklo said:

lol to stop thieves in our cities, we must bombard it with rocks! But wait, does bombardment actually kill units? Ive had some opportunity fires before but it only did damage. If it only does a bit of damage it will just heal it back in the city.

Click to expand...

Thats why you have to set the "Bombardment" also to 100 % if you want to kill units also, or a percentage like you are saying also, its your choice, its ALL in the "Lady"BUG icon. You know there are over 200 choices inside there, correct??


EDIT: Added a pic at what Opportunity Fire can do.

Yudishtira said:

Q1: Can a rogue enter a foreign city (with units in it):
- only if its civ has Open Borders with the city's civ; or
- only if its civ is not at war with that civ; or
- at any time regardless

Answer: the best (only) answer so far is that a rogue can enter a city as long as no unit in the city can see it (thanks DH). DH does not seem entirely sure, so if anyone else can confirm this, or has a confident opinion on this, I'd love to hear from them

Click to expand...

Bumping this because it is clearly no longer the case (v29). Rogues are entering my city at will despite dog units and ambushers. Can someone please clarify if there is any way now to keep Rogues out of your cities. Dogs in the city plus archers fortified in every adjacent tile? Please fix this guys.

When I first saw the two rogues in my city despite the ambusher, I thought that maybe ambushers don't work and it has to be dogs. So I built dogs for all my cities. Which made no difference. In between turns I can see one rogue popping out of the city and then back in.

I don't know why the AI has put both of his rogues there (they must both be from one civ). Same thing happened to me at this stage of my pre-v28 game (when I started this thread). If he can't think of anything roguish enough for them to do, he could just send them out hunting...

yes, moving a dog unit in a city in which a enemy rogue is stationed should have the effect that, after the end of the turn the enemy rogue is autoteleported out of the city, unable to enter it as long as the dog is present in it. ("teleport away" mechanic is already used when different civs units on the same tile have to be split when one declares war)

BUT that would make the AI most often have its units lost quite easily, once outside the city, hunted down.

In the meantime you can bait the camping rogues out of the city by presenting them juicy workers or animals. Baiting AI helps in other situations as well^^

I can handle him being able to stay in the city (although I don't think he should be able to enter a city that can see him ie. ambushers should stop him as effectively as dogs do). What really annoys me is - even with dogs present - he is popping out of the city and is able to return!

And that I thought we had established the limits of sanity earlier in this thread, then I find they've been uprooted and moved again in the very next version.

Even though the dogs see him, doesn't mean he must make an attack to enter the city. If he goes out and attacks and that takes his turn, you can take him down as he's in the field and visible. If he has another mvmnt to get back into the city with... you may want to try to bait him into an attack.

I wish he would pillage or attack something but he just pops out and back in. At present I do not like the idea of using workers as bait, however effective it might be.
Besides, best case scenario leaves me down a worker and the rogue rebuilt and back in two or three turns.

It's not even a good tactical use of their rogues. They're causing 6 gold per turn (3 promoted town watchmen) worth of crime, and have virtually no chance of doing anything else and living.

Discussing this might be seen to imply that it's okay the way it is - whereas it simply isn't. Please fix.

Yudishtira said:

Bumping this because it is clearly no longer the case (v29). Rogues are entering my city at will despite dog units and ambushers. Can someone please clarify if there is any way now to keep Rogues out of your cities. Dogs in the city plus archers fortified in every adjacent tile? Please fix this guys.

When I first saw the two rogues in my city despite the ambusher, I thought that maybe ambushers don't work and it has to be dogs. So I built dogs for all my cities. Which made no difference. In between turns I can see one rogue popping out of the city and then back in.

I don't know why the AI has put both of his rogues there (they must both be from one civ). Same thing happened to me at this stage of my pre-v28 game (when I started this thread). If he can't think of anything roguish enough for them to do, he could just send them out hunting...

Click to expand...

Yes, we could make rogues and other Criminal units have the new tag I added a while back which specifically disallows them from entering non-Owned cities. If no one objects to that I'll do that this afternoon.