To the creators of C2C

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, C2C is Gaming Enlightenment. C2C is making me question the purpose of games other than CivIV. Why bother with them now, when they will never be as good as CivIV with C2C? Civilization V can never be what C2C is. How can I possibly be excited about Europa Universalis IV now? And to think that C2C is NOT EVEN COMPLETE? To think that the Prehistoric Era is NOT EVEN FINISHED??? I fear that if multi-maps are ever made a possibility, that I will fuse to my PC chair due to not moving from it. And should I die fused to my chair, it will be worth it. There will be no reason to move, as C2C is that good ALREADY. To think of what it has the potential to be..... it has the potential to be THE Video Game. The Ultimate and Absolute, never to be rivaled by anything, EVER. How could ANYTHING compare to a game that literally spans the whole of human existence?

That is all.

(edited and improved)
I will try to speak for as many people as possible, and try to answer that question...

....As many who let me and who share my love for CIV, and desire to see the BEST GAME EVER.
We can take C2C to the next level, and see how far C2C can exceed even the next CIV. It can have more great ideas than CIV V, CIV 6, and any other game that can follow. It can combine the best of CIV, SIM CITY, AGE OF EMPIRES, ULTIMA, EUROPA UNIVERSALIS, and whatever the CivFanatics and MOD community of all games can come up with. It can encompass all the best ideas of the games that are like it, the mods that have built off of them, and the ideas for new games in the future. It can even include the best ideas of everyone, and every potential game creator. We could be the team that can keep it together and see it through.
We all have a role in helping make this happen.

We have to believe and help participate in bringing people together, and focus together to keep things moving. We all have to work to overcome personal differences and obstacles in continuing to develop ideas, and help in the modding. We all have to care, and we all have to want to have the best CIV game, the best game possible with no limits to customizing and extending ideas. Anything is possible if we keep reaching past ourselves to discover and explore what can be done! You can be a part of that exciting team that makes it happen, whether it your ideas, your debates, your playtesting, your attempts to mod or to help, or your thoughts that keep things moving. You don't know what is possible until you try. We don't know what's possible until we are willing to get past our limitations to help each other overcome them.
Our efforts to make C2C evolve into a GAME that explore the limits of what a game, not just a strategy game, a 4x, "explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate" game, a CIV game can be.
Let's make a game that encompasses potential history, the past, the present, the future, from what might have been to what can be, from the best adventures of sci-fi and alternate history, to the best stories of history and our imagination can deliver. Literally our imagination and our teamwork is the limit, and the willingness for everyone to help.

We can push the limits of what is possible for Civ IV, for C2C, for the next CIV, the next evolution of gaming, and we have something to contribute and say about it now. This is our chance to define our existence and our voice within it. This is our chance to add our voice to creating and playing the ULTIMATE SIMULATION GAME. C2C is literally the foundation and the closest we can come today to playing and reaching for it. And this is your chance at making it's possibilities even better. You can be a part of even greater greatness than it already is. You just have to help it (and everyone) keep making steps in improving and moving in an improving direction. This is your chance.

and with some luck, some faith, some belief, and each and everyone's help in just taking steps in moving forward, just about anything possible could happen.
Wouldn't you like to be there a part of it?
All you have to do is try. All any of us has to do is stay part of the conversation, keep doing what we can by making even simple steps, and stick together to out create, out idea, and out debate our differences and obstacles away, and we may very well discover ourselves in sheer amazing territory where the sum of our individual imagination and efforts transcends to a CIV game greater than we all helped in some part emerge and evolve to blow all of us away.
Simply imagine a Dream Team, and a dream mod that C2C and all the CIV mods of civfanatics, of all games and all mods could come together to evolve to beyond brilliance.
C2C has that real potential and is that great evolving foundation that lead us past levels of greatness to what comes next.

Isn't being part of that potential reality worth the challenges of imagination and creation ahead?
Isn't it worth sticking around and seeing it become even more great!
Not only is the journey exciting, but the potential of creating better, and improving anything is worth the thought and the attempt.

Here is an idea to make it possible to see it it through.
Let us form a list, a partnership, and a collective group, to stick together to help this Dream become real.
To unite us in our common goal of making the best Simulation game ever.
Anyone who wants to can add their name to this list, to be a part of a group who will stand together across mods, games, etc, to the limits to see C2C, it's next adventure and how far our journey can go.
Together we can find a way to give our best.

I ask you to please personally partner with me to see the limit of what C2C and other games can become; we will become a group of supporters, players, and modders, who share the dream and who will pledge to stick together and work through it all.
You never know how great C2C could become until we try to improve it and make it better.
You never know how far together we could go, until we try.
Let's see what we can do to top this.

Sincerely,
Rightfuture - the official PR and Marketing guy of Cavemen2Cosmos
p.s. Please join with me and tell me what you want.
1. TheKingOfSpace
and
2. Eduhum
from this thread -
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=482333
(worth checking out)
and
3. YOU - the person reading this.
so that together we can all see it happen.

I don't so how even big differences in opinion and direction cannot be overcome.

I will post a new thread in the mod-mod's section to attempt to lead us all forward in our united common goal.
It will be linked here soon. I will also quote and link every time someone said something similar here, including me. It is about time we all said it together.
For the love of CIV!
This is just the beginning!

C2C currently is the reality of the continuation of the ROM/AND dream to make Civ better and shows honest promise in becoming much more.

It is not about pedestals or false praise. It is about continuing to strive to create a better CIV and CIV IV. This is very possible and real. It already is. Taking the time to make things better is worth it for the people who care.
The only pedestal is a vision of what it could become.

Any new features can cause MAF's or bloating on any mod. C2C probably has more ideas than most if not all combined. The team is committed to revising and improving content as they go. Even to the point of completely reworking complete areas. It is not about the more so much as the better and leaving room to add more ideas. Every so often the team works together to rework ideas so MAF's and bloating goes away. Releasing the most stable versions as not beta versions would probably be better. Options are only bad things when you just want a few of them. C2C wants to be free to evolve so it's not just CIV IV, so that it can consider and become anything. If all C2C wanted to do was be stable then AND would have been a fixed evolution that was completed and did what it wanted. C2C wants stability and new ideas. It's a hard balance fitting them both together. But worth it as stable versions evolve along the way. If More brings better than I'm all for it. Being open to more ideas can as long as stability and agreement can be found is my idea of moving forward and better. This way you have both new and good at the best possible times. At the Core Civ and C2C is about exploring what if. I want to see these guys and the community best explore the best what if as possible. If it ends up a living historical simulator that become a hybrid of the best ideas and games more than just a mod then I'm fine with that.

It truly is about building on an existing foundation that we love to make the best game possible, and to lay groundwork for the future. People who mod and contribute want these mods to get even better.

C2C is a great effort to keep improving ideas and moving things forward. It could already qualify as the communities effort to create the Next Civ. And it still has lots of room to grow.

The last thing I want to do is criticize any game, as each is different no matter what is similar or who works on them. Every mod has it merits and differences, and I just believe that C2C is a great foundation to build something even greater. You don't have to start from scratch, it already has more work done than most any other mod, it has a great team, and it is a good place to build more.
Even if it leads to something else, don't you want to see it be the best it could be?
Why try to limit what it can become?
Modders do this because they love to. I see no reason why they shouldn't work together to make the best mod and game possible.
We should be reaching towards what is possible not poking holes in what can be done.
Comparing simply allows us to improve things, not be negative.
Comparing allows us to take the best of what we have around us, and give us freedom to reach farther. To play a deeper and more fulfilling game that becomes the Civilization that we want to day. The CIV 6 that isn't going to be made for us. At best we may inspire new ideas which influence the next game. Either way this is best way to play those ideas tomorrow.

And C2C can extend the reality of Civ IV with collective imagination. Even if it is never finished, and I hope it keeping evolving into something better, it can be an amazing journey. One way or another I would love to see what the Civfanatics community and C2C can come up with together. Fall from Heaven was just a mod, that became so much more.
Imagine if all we made a mod together. A true community mod; the best of what we could do together. C2C could already qualify and could be the right starting place.
Have you ever asked yourself how far this could go? What is the best Civ game we can make and make C2C become?
I say reach as far as we can.

p.s. love the song as always.

1. I love C2C.
2. It still lacks (and as of current plans, WILL lack) some already used ideas (eg. FFH-style MAGIC and EQUIPMENT), so it's not YET "all-encompassing".
Still, as a REALISTIC mod, it definitely is making Civ4 the BEST Civ game currently.
This is what Civ2 was for me until I saw some good Civ4 mods (vanilla wasn't better than some Civ2 mods).
Thus, C2C might most probably be better than Civ6 vanilla, but we don't know of its modding capabilities (might be even easier to mod it, so it saves time, so you can come up with C2C-level mods for Civ6 much faster).
Anyways, IF/WHEN we actually see Multiple Maps being the reality (and playable, as of memory issues) - this will probably be THE step beyond what Civilization EVER was.
Which means, if Civ6 won't have it, C2C will stay on top, cause this feature alone is capable of huge gameplay feats that no number of small features (and Civ4's improvement over Civ2 would be called small, compared to MMs) can out-weight.
Can't wait for it to happen.
3. GOOD LUCK!!!

@rightfuture

The main driving force for me is the fact that I would find games that had parts of what I would like to play but not all in one game. While C2C is far from the "ultimate game" it still is one of the best in my opinion. And like you said it can still be much more. And even if we stopped modding today I think C2C would still be better than whatever Civ6 will be.

@hydro
Definitely looking forward to the much and the more, as long as the more is an improvement.
I think that your statement highlights the greatest strength and biggest challenge for C2C.
Adding MORE in a way that improves C2C without overloading it.
I think you and the ModTeam have done an OUTSTANDING job in organizing the existing content. I love how you have let Vokarya revise the tech tree without throwing out all the ideas. I do think that you should keep a history of tech-tree changes, and a list of all discarded techs for further discussion (especially those offered by MrAzure and his inspired 'team' - I still miss his input and would love him back!). Keeping even discarded ideas organized keeps a pool of useful material that could be reworked that could be inspirational for discussion for the future.
As always I support everything you do. Please keep being the most you can be!
...........

@The ModTeam
The MODTEAM deserves a great round of applause for creating a better stability focus and a longer freeze cycle this year. You all have done a excellent job of focusing and reworking areas of features, like the tech-tree, culture, combat, ai, and my favorite weather. I love the improved teamwork on problem solving, and better group focus. I especially like Civ Fuehrer's, PrimOver's, and Thundrbrd's major steps and innovations into the spotlight (not to underscore other major contributions), and I hope they are helped into being major and valued parts of the ModTeam.

- I like the idea of a year end major stability polished release. I hope to see further attention to continue to improve on that effort of coordination.

- I also think you should have a New Year push on brainstorming, and coming out with a New Year / Experimental version at the end of January by experimenting and coming up with major new features because all the new input and new ideas that are flying around at this time of year.

-February could be a general focus of finishing old major features and getting them in. Multi-Maps, Integrating Navigable Rivers, and a round up of integrating the best new features from other mods could be a good version focus. Then all the major features could be rounded up, including the ones that were stagnant or waiting to be worked out. It might be the best time of year to push them through together. You could release a collection version of new and reworked features to be completed or sidelined (less stable by design to see what works). I suspect that the normal pace would soon follow.

- I also like the idea of the ModTeam teaming up with other mods - like they did for Multi-Maps, and inspiring old time modders like God-Emperor (Rocks to Rockets) so that we truly have the Dream Team (not that it already isn't). I would make the time to collectively reach out and address their major concerns.

We should probably make a list of the major reactions and fears of people so that we can overcome them.
-For those who dislike the 'more' of C2C, I think that a focus on grouping and management will solve those problems. Make options of all major disagreements. Strategy Only said himself (I will get around to quoting him) that C2C should be able to be played the way someone wants to. If a disagreement can't be worked out, make it an ongoing challenge discussion for solutions. Implement the best one at the moment so progress can continue to be made.

-For those who have older pc's make an official bridged lite version that keeps up to date and is released stably every few months. It could also be the stable focused release that is better for new players, and have less of the experimental features. Plan to group that modularly in the svn as a core and the lite version will be easier to launch.

-Having better game selectable options to select these groups of features will keep it from being overwhelming to new people and allow quicker games to satisfy the RAAT mod types, Rocks to Rocket minimalist and K-MOD desiring streamliners, and fracturing re-interpreters. I say bring the community together to make a bridge to greatness, and take some time to address the biggest concerns so that people will just want to be a part of C2C's greatness and direction. Always make room for everyone's opinions because they can lead to a breakthrough. The ModTeam does a unique and unparallelled job of keeping things improving and moving; a major release almost every month that almost beats a commercial expansion is simple proof (and this done at will for the love of it). The greatest thing about C2C is that it continues makes room for everyone and continues to consider every idea. C2C can only get much better, and with multi-maps will hit escape velocity into sheer amazing. Don't doubt the possibility, keep reaching and your steps could take you even beyond. The galactic era isn't even your limit, to the Dimensional era (you have planned) and transcend beyond yourselves. You are already finding surprise. Make that imagination real.

Believe you can, because you already are starting to.

@Everyone.
I still believe that C2C is the continuation and personification of everything that the original Civilization pioneered and explored, and that Rise of Mankind (ROM), and Rise of Mankind -A New Dawn (AND) moved forward. Civilization IV may be only the best existing moddable foundation, and CIV V a reinterpretation that inevitably leapt sideways, but C2C can continue to bridge that dream into the next incarnation and truly push CIV 6 into being something far more. With the incorporation of Sim City ideas and the exploration of other games and mods, C2C is becoming a living world, and a bridge to the real future that it is already mapping out; it already has living animals and with Primover's help a real geo-climatic simulated environment; it is within reach to be far more than even Civ, and well beats what Civ 6 probably will be today.
C2C, the ModTeam, and the Community, time and time again, reinvent themselves to keep that dream of exploration and manifest destiny of more ideas moving forward, well into the future (that they are building the tech-tree of) into limitless possibility and exploration of the plausible limits of imagination. The answer is yes we can, if they(the Mod-Team) can start to believe it, and if we support them to keep improving. Don't ever limit yourself!

Please don't ever underestimate C2C or it's contributors to help C2C rise above it's own limitations and become something far greater that the sum of it's parts. Anything can be changed and improved with the power of honest debate. I bet more things unite us than divide us. We all share the dream of the ultimate CIV game, and we all share the common ground of loving many of the same things. Let's work towards building a bridge so that we can make it happen. For the love of Civ!

@ all new people
With C2C and united community efforts, anything that is possible can be probable. The C2C team has already overcome resource limits, AI limits, things that have been thought impossible for Civ IV, and are even thinking about rewritting or bypassing the Civ 4 engine itself to make it multi-core and even bridging it to create a whole new game, bridging the best of what they have come up with the existing game so they don't have to start completely from scratch. Your support is what makes the problems go away, and the debate continue. Your support is what keeps the ModTeam going and C2C become the Civ you want it too. It's main focus is improvement of Civ, and all you have to do is share in the conversation to help it become greater and greater, to make it into your ideal Civ mod. All we have to do is stand together and stick with doing our part to help overcome obstacles, and keep the discussion going on how to make it better. With a new version almost every month and an improved focus on stable versions, streamlining, and solving major problems, C2C can be both a fast, and deep experience that keeps innovating and encompasses all that we want. Help it become what you want it to be, and let your disagreements fuel your discussion for solutions. Only together will it become it's best and everything you want a Civilization Game to be.

--- P.S. I would like to publicly acknowledge the major influence and role that MrAzure had on C2C, the ModTeam and myself and hope that everyone continues to be open and inviting to that level of ambitious pioneering that we all should actively inspire and foster. He will be greatly missed and I hope a continued inspiration to us all. I hope he knows that all of his ideas are valued, just like YOU the reader of this post, all ideas and discussions are valued, even if they can't all be used (yet). Stick with it and you will be heard, even if it takes some time to get noticed. The ModTeam can only work on so much at a time, and they do discard ideas that get revisited.
Everyone's ideas can be heard, and I/We are your supporter to the best of our ability.

C2C can be the bridge to the ideal future CIV game.
Please add your voice, even if you just play.
For the sake of having and being able to play the best CIV game ever!

- I also like the idea of the ModTeam teaming up with other mods - like they did for Multi-Maps, and inspiring old time modders like God-Emperor (Rocks to Rockets) so that we truly have the Dream Team (not that it already isn't). I would make the time to collectively reach out and address their major concerns.

We should probably make a list of the major reactions and fears of people so that we can overcome them.
-For those who dislike the 'more' of C2C, I think that a focus on grouping and management will solve those problems. Make options of all major disagreements. Strategy Only said himself (I will get around to quoting him) that C2C should be able to be played the way someone wants to. If a disagreement can't be worked out, make it an ongoing challenge discussion for solutions. Implement the best one at the moment so progress can continue to be made.

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I think R2R is a step in the right direction for those who don't want the "more is more". For me I would like an outlet for all those who don't like or who cannot handle such a huge mod. To me I hate when people said to trim the "bloat". Mainly because everyone has a different idea of what that means. R2R is the answer to that type of complaint.

There is so much more that I want to add that from my perspective the mod is too barren and not too bloated. So many techs to fill in and nearly 2 whole eras to still do. All the multi-map stuff, combat mod, nomadic start, electricity property, so many other cultures to do, Atomicpunk, Cyberpunk and Biopunk to do. Not to mention all the other buildings I would like to finally put in. And that's just the stuff we have been meaning to do. There is so much more we can invent and think of!

In short lets not bicker over stuff we already have but step back and let us create! The most creative times in C2C was not debating over existing features but experimenting over new ones. Both creation on your own and collaborating with other team members.

Stepping back to balance things now and then is fine, but it should not be the main focus of the mod. Especially when what you just balanced may need to be redone to compensate because of new content.

Hydromancerx said:

In short lets not bicker over stuff we already have but step back and let us create! The most creative times in C2C was not debating over existing features but experimenting over new ones. Both creation on your own and collaborating with other team members.

Stepping back to balance things now and then is fine, but it should not be the main focus of the mod. Especially when what you just balanced may need to be redone to compensate because of new content.

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Bravo, very well stated.

I agree wholeheartedly.
Let's share the love for creation, not complain about something that can always be improved!
C2C will hopefully be an improving Work-in-Progress for a long time; I look forward to the biggest challenges and perceived disagreements being overcome by great discussion and innovation.

Hydro, you and Strategy Only, do an amazing job at creating and considering all ideas that come your way and being open to the entire community. I want all people to see clearly how you both want C2C to keep moving and getting better as well as how much you are receptive to other people like me. I want the MrAzure's and all the other modders and people learning to mod to simply see, how much you long since have valued their opinions and invited their ongoing participation. I strongly dislike seeing anyone misunderstanding C2C or any of the ModTeam's intent to create the best mod and Civ game ever and be open to all the best ideas!
I think C2C is definitely on the right path, and is destined for rare breakthrough greatness.
It is the unique collaboration of seeking greatness and the willingness to move past any bickering or disagreements that makes C2C so special.
I can't wait to see even more!

To improve Civ IV you have to continuously seek to improve and consider new ideas, stability should be part of the ongoing process, not an end goal. Greater and greater improvement is the end goal. I agree!

I absolutely love the comparison between our base Civilization 4, to Caveman to Cosmos. I could show anyone I know and most would think it is the same game, but it's so vastly expanded. Even the Beyond the Sword expansion, while a great improvement on an engrossing game, is nothing in comparison. I think that it highlights, more than anything else, the difference between fan-made mods and official games. Official games are made with a deadline in mind, to appeal to a specific audience and generate a profit for shareholders. That is fine. They have to pay salaries and rent and utilities, they have a limited level of manpower, they have a limited ability to get ideas from the community because competitors might just steal something from them.

But fan-made mods like C2C have no deadline. By definition their production process attracts only those who truly want to make the game better, attracting them to the sometimes tedious task of programming and modding, of looking through ten thousand lines of code for the tiniest error, and putting the incomplete versions out before ready. Without rewards and for their own personal satisfaction. No one gets paid for C2C, except perhaps whoever ultimately runs the web servers. And the game is an ongoing process. In some ways, it's similar to other modable games like Minecraft. Only without the overwhelming levels of anti-modpack hatred.

But what I like most is its...democratic process? Meritocratic? If I was skilled or inspired enough, I could contribute improvements, even if it was just changing tiny things here and there, I could make the game better. I could even learn C++ and python, make all sorts of fun improvements to challenge and surprise people. Anyone could.

IronClaymore said:

If I was skilled or inspired enough, I could contribute improvements, even if it was just changing tiny things here and there, I could make the game better. I could even learn C++ and python, make all sorts of fun improvements to challenge and surprise people. Anyone could.

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Well you have alot of friends around, Koshling used to Live in Australia England (my bad), SGT Slick/Dancing Hoskuld/12padams presently live there. Join in the FUN!

strategyonly said:

Well you have alot of friends around, Koshling used to Live in Australia, SGT Slick/Dancing Hoskuld/12padams presently live there. Join in the FUN!

Click to expand...

That's news to me! I used to live in England (so almost exactly the other side of the world)

Koshling said:

That's news to me! I used to live in England (so almost exactly the other side of the world)

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Me too, but the doctor said I needed to move somewhere dry because of my lungs. My parents choose South Australia - "the driest state in the driest continent in the world". never looked back.

bump

Double bump bump de