Poland: a particularily challenging game

rfcfanatic

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Hi everyone,

Just wanted to share a game where I played as Poland and which proved to be quite challenging even on Viceroy difficulty. Two attempts ended with failure before the third attempt to win Historical victory finally succeeded.

In the first failed game I got invaded by Germany while my knights were campaigning in Lithuania and fighting Keshiks on eastern front and while my western cities were being ravaged by plague. The knights died of plague before they even got to defend western Poland from German invasion. I finally abandoned the game, after losing a couple of defenseless cities to German knight/bombard army.

In the second game I decided to be wiser and launch a pre-emptive war against Germany before Germany could take advantage of my plague-ridden cities. After wiping out Germany and stretching Polish borders all the way to Augsburg and Freiburg am Breisgau, Burgundy volunteered as my vassal and so I enjoyed better times for a while. Before going after Lithuania, I fought lengthy wars against Austria and especially against Hungary (Hungary had their castle replacement UB in every city basically!) in order to get Bohemia, Moravia and Upper Hungary for an UHV. This all delayed the campaign against Lithuania and when this finally happened, France-Spain declared war on me! Because a lot of military resources went to defend my Burgundian vassal from French-Spanish onslaught, I didn't have enough units to gain control over cities conquered from Lithuania and in that phase, also Muscovy. So, I failed the UHV of controlling 12 cities. I was doing even worse in Western Europe. Burgundy was losing city after another to highly promoted huge stacks of French knights... I don't understand why France and its vassal Spain got so powerful!

In the third game where I finally succeeded, I repeated the same mistake of delaying the war of eliminating Germany. The plague hit in its expected year - 1287. A few turns later - Germany declares war. Again, a large stack of german knights, bombards and macemen was ready to strike while my cities were ravaged by the plague. Here's the picture just before the plague:



Luckily, the stack was waiting in Prague this time, so I was saved only by the spawn of Austria - Prague and the stack in it all flipped away. Only a plague-struck unit was defending Berlin when I took it. Frankfurt was captured a lot later when my stability could afford it. Meanwhile, another plague struck in 1485 and it provided a good chance to rename Paris to Paryz :) When Burgundy capitulated to France, I had to destroy Burgundy as well. With Germany capitulated, Burgundy conquered and France collapsed - only then I could do what I was supposed to do for UHV - conquer Lithuania and Kievan Rus' leftover cities.

Finally, the Polish Commonwealth stretched from Calais to Kaluga. Actually, not just from Calais but from Bordeaux which is a lot more important city because of AA.



It's kind of paradoxal that in order to control Eastern Europe for its UHV, Poland has to conquer Western Europe. Here are the main reason why this particular start yields a challenging game:

1. Black Death hits early. REALLY early. I guess 1287 is almost as early as it can get. When it hits, the Mongol invasion event is still active. So it means that you won't be able to concentrate the military power to your western border. Plague + German invasion can get very frustrating.

Do I assume correctly that the plague spawn dates already get calculated when the game starts in 500 AD? Three times I loaded from the 966 AD save and the plague hit exactly at the same time. Moreover, in the two recent games, the second plague also hit at the same time - 1485.

2. Germany is very strong and has hostile attitude towards Poland. Germany is also technologically advanced. For example, Germany had bombards already in 1250. If you want to win this game, you'll have to conquer Germany at least.

3. Unless dealt with, France will become a big problem in late game. Just like Germany earlier in the game.

There's one more, but it's more generic challenge. How to reap the best possible production from the core land Poland has? There are a lot of grassland and so little amount of hills from which the most are located in the mountainous area separating Hungary from Poland. So where to build the Heroic Epic? Here's my solution. City of Plock, 3 tiles east from Poznan the capitol:



Not really the best solution, but Plock had a lot of food and also, no useless mountain tiles. Watermills are very powerful with Rep. parts tech and Apprenticeship civic.

I also attached the save from the turn Poland spawns. For anyone interested of taking the challenge. The difficulty is Viceroy, but the game itself is much more difficult I think. AI having Gunpowder in 1250 is much earlier than its historical invention in Europe (1326) AI being so much technologically ahead of history is essential on Emperor, OK on Monarch, but intolerable on Viceroy.

So what do you people think what'll be the best way to deal with Western Europe when you're playing as Poland? Maybe this part should also be covered in RFCE_CivSpecificInfo.html document in the mod directory?

PS! A question about the research bar. When it says "Military Tactics (+302%)", what does this +302% mean?
 

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Sun Tzu said: The highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

You need to learn more ways of playing the game than just killing everyone and taking all their cities. That's really unnecessary and boring IMO. Specifically,

(1) Pillage. Pillage in RFCE directly affects the opponent's Stability, in addition to indirectly by hurting their Economy. Germany starts with no access to Horses, so use your cavalry advantage to pillage with impunity - and make sure they do not get access to Horses till too late.

Do this as early as possible, when you have your first 2 or 3 cavalry units. Taking cities is secondary to the main goal of weakening Germany in the long run (釜底抽薪).

(2) Do not take Vassals early. It gives a -8 hit to diplomacy with everybody and is simply not worth it except when playing as Austria (due to their UP). It also costs you maintenance. Save Vassals for when you're no longer vulnerable and when you've already cultivated strong allies.

(3) Use diplomacy wisely. Let France, Germany, and Spain fight each other (借刀殺人) rather than doing all the fighting by yourself. This is actually quite easy, as Germany almost always converts to Protestantism (which you can help by spreading more Protestantism to their cities) whereas Spain never does, and it works with your religious UHV.

(3.5) Sign Defensive Pacts with remote and powerful civs (遠交近攻). For Poland, your choices are Spain, France, England and Turkey. Maintain good relations with at least one of them and sign your Pacts as early as possible. This will deter your enemies from declaring war, and should they declare the mutual military struggle will further improve your relations with your allies.
 
In addition to that: make sure to have a city that gives 5 XP to units ASAP: one medic promoted unit per city reduces the damage significantly. Be sure to have a stack as diverse as possible. Some medic units, a melee counter, a knight counter, some city raiders, an über strength unit, etc. At the same time, find the weak spot of the enemy's stack. If the enemy is generally weak against Cavalry but has a few Pikemen, it's not that bad to waste some Knights to get rid of them. The AI likes to attack by the way when it sees a chance of victory, even when you're on a woodland hill. A small stack at key points can greatly lower the enemy's strength. But better yet, prepare before the enemy has the chance to prepare, either by preparing a better stack or to sabotage his infrastructure. In RFCE research is somewhat tied to the timeline, so if you have a tech lead it may be a good idea to invest some commerce in espionage, with a little more emphasis on your neighbours. With that in mind, the improved spies mod may be an interesting feature for 2.0.
 
@rfcfanatic
Sounds like an interesting game, good for experience
Which version it is? 1.1?

Btw, you should try Poland on Monarch too, and compare the differences
Would be interesting to read about it, if it is much more difficult or not

When it says "Military Tactics (+302%)", what does this +302% mean?

It means that the technology is ahead of it's time, so it's harder to research
+302% research points needed than in it's normal time
 
@rfcfanatic
Sounds like an interesting game, good for experience
Which version it is? 1.1?

Btw, you should try Poland on Monarch too, and compare the differences
Would be interesting to read about it, if it is much more difficult or not

Yep, this is 1.1. SVN revision I have is 1041.

Not sure if I can beat Monarch though. It depends how the difficulty levels of RFCE are related to the difficulty levels of vanilla BTS. In vanilla BTS I usually win on Noble, but struggle on Prince, and haven't even tried Monarch or anything above (except a recent Strategy & Tips forum game of Wang Kon Killing Fields on Immortal difficulty which ended with a humiliating pwnage).

Can a Noble-level player of unmodded BTS beat Monarch in RFCE?
 
Yeah, difficulty isn't changes the same way as in BtS
Stability and especially barbs are harder on each level, but other than that there are not too many significant differences in RFCE
 
@iOnlySignIn

Yes, I'm quite noob at diplomacy. It never works for me. In this game for example, I managed to make Burgundy friendly with no diplomatic penalties whatsoever. But it didn't stop Burgundy from joining the war on the French side via capitulation. Strange that the French had enough authority to make Burgundy to capitulate after they had lost Paris to Poland. Also strange that Burgundy refused to become a vassal of their friendly war ally who had even liberated their cities.

This game is a lot different from my current game as Genoa where diplomacy is much easier. As Genoa, I'll make everyone happy by gifting them Music. But in this game, Germany hates Poland and there's nothing that can be done about it. There aren't even any technologies that can be used as a bribe. Germany is annoyed already on Polish spawn.

As for defensive pacts and Protestantism, they'll become available really late in the game. Poland has to survive a few hundred turns until that. Maybe early war against Germany as you recommended is the best option. Even when defensive pacts become available I tend to avoid these. I do this since playing as America in RFC where I accepted such pact which later led me to war against several empires at once. Defensive pacts can lead to unexpected world wars.
 
In addition to that: make sure to have a city that gives 5 XP to units ASAP: one medic promoted unit per city reduces the damage significantly.

Does it mean that a medic can reduce the damage from plague?

Be sure to have a stack as diverse as possible. Some medic units, a melee counter, a knight counter, some city raiders, an über strength unit, etc.

Btw, what's the best knight counter? I especially mean the pre-pikemen era. In that era, according to my experience, the best knight counters are... other knights. Given that they are better promoted than enemy knights. Especially the Formation promotion is good to have.

Guisarmiers are second best after knights. But they are really far below knights. In fact, I think guisarmiers and arquebusiers are the worst units in the game. Knights can beat them even when they are garrisoned in cities, but in the open they are almost useless. I believe that guisarmiers and arquebusiers are in the game just as a historical reference to demonstrate how overpowered the knights were on the battlefield between 1100 and 1400.

At the same time, find the weak spot of the enemy's stack. If the enemy is generally weak against Cavalry but has a few Pikemen, it's not that bad to waste some Knights to get rid of them.

When I see that the enemy has (Swiss) pikemen in a city, I usually attach a couple of Guerilla longbowmen to the stack and try to move on hills. That way my knights are protected against pike attacks. But when it comes to getting rid of the pikes in cities, I'd prefer sacrificing a bombard or more. Bombards are cheaper, they can do collateral and they don't suffer a penalty against pikes which makes their loss much less wasteful than a loss of a knight.
 
If you play as America and do NOT get into World Wars, you're doing it wrong. The key is choosing your alies. Here's a screenshot of my America (in RFC: DoC):


You can see Japan and Germany as my solid allies (who are both relatively small but really powerful due to their Unique Powers) and Inca and Turkey as my peace vassals. As America it is my duty to provide money & technology to my allies so they can fight my wars for me. :cool:

The keys to getting peace vassals are:

(1) Become really powerful but remain at peace. If you're at war they will hesitate/outright refuse to join you, because "Sorry, it's out of our hands" or "We're afraid of your enemies!"

(2) "Rescue" them from wars/threat of war against powerful opponents. To achieve this, it may be necessary for you to provoke such wars in the first place.

For example with Poland, to do (2) with Burgundy, you need to make sure that Germany or France is at war with Burgundy.

Another thing: It's impossible to get friendly with Germany as Poland or vice versa, as you have huge hidden diplomacy penalties built in. It's necessary to look for your allies elsewhere, like I said, among the candidates of France, England, Spain, and Turkey. If you plan to vassalize Burgundy (for Paladin goodness from Topkapi Palace) you can forget about France.

It's hard looking for vassals as Poland as Germany, Sweden, and Moscovy are all inherently hostile, and Lithuania is better conquered. "Poland has no friends" is a real problem in RFCE, just like IRL. My solution is to build up a strong defensive alliance with Turkey (they will sign Defensive Pact at Annoyed, iirc), who has no real friends in Europe either. Unpopular but hardworking civilizations should stick together. :lol:
 
"Poland has no friends" is a real problem in RFCE, just like IRL.

Poland's only friend is Hungary, as in real life
They are usually weak though when Poland need help the most

But yeah, Poland has very few friends, and I think it's great! (not for Poland, for the gameplay :))
So I intend to keep it this way
 
my last game was with poland. Felt pretty easy and I had to quit at 1500 AD cuz it was getting boring
make sure you have walls and castles in your cities, this makes the AI wait at the gates until they reduce the defenses, giving you time to reinforce the cities
also dont expand too far to the east too early so that barbs dont target you
anyways I think I just got lucky last poland game, maybe should try again and it would be as exciting as yours
maybe it's the SVN version thats making a difference... will dl that too
 
@iOnlySignIn

In RFC, America has little opportunity to build a strong navy. When the world war broke out, the seas were infested with enemy destroyers and battleships, so there was no way I could grab the oil for the 3rd UHV. I really don't like naval warfare, especially when I have to do it against several other civs at once.

But I actually tested out the defensive pacts thing in RFCE. As Genoa, I made a pact with Muscovy (just wanted to secure my Crimean possessions). In 1634, the world war broke out. Just like your America game, I was at war with 5 other civs: Burgundy, Hungary, Germany, Austria, Lithuania. This time the defensive pact was rather useful. Hungary had a pretty strong army, but since they were fighting on multiple fronts, I didn't have to face their army alone. Some pistoliers and Teutonic knights were enough to protect my Bulgarian vassal.

So I conclude that defensive pacts are good when you have to fight land wars. But be careful if you play as Genoa. It may secure some of your possessions, but it may also deny you the 3rd UHV (the biggest trader) as you're going to lose a lot of trade routes if you go to war against several other civs.
 
Does it mean that a medic can reduce the damage from plague?

Btw, what's the best knight counter? I especially mean the pre-pikemen era. In that era, according to my experience, the best knight counters are... other knights. Given that they are better promoted than enemy knights. Especially the Formation promotion is good to have.

Guisarmiers are second best after knights. But they are really far below knights. In fact, I think guisarmiers and arquebusiers are the worst units in the game. Knights can beat them even when they are garrisoned in cities, but in the open they are almost useless. I believe that guisarmiers and arquebusiers are in the game just as a historical reference to demonstrate how overpowered the knights were on the battlefield between 1100 and 1400.

For the first question: Of course! The plague kills one unit when it enters, and then it keeps hurting the rest of your units by turn. But you heal by turn as well. A medic enhances your healing, so it is useful against plagues, specially for your biggest garrisons, as in bigger garrisons the plague strikes harder.

About Knights: In RFCE you hardly have a single unit that is a counter against another unit. Here you have something the vanilla game can only achieve in Generals: High-Withdrawal units. These Light Cavalry units are a lil worse then Siege Weapons, but they move 3 times faster then a siege weapon.

So actually if you see small groups of units you may use these Light Cavalry to hurt them and retreat. After this you'll see that Knights, Guisarmiers and sometimes even your defensive Arbalestier, Longbow or Arquebusier may kill the weak units. If it's a big stack use siege weapons, and then anything may kill the remaining forces.

Guisarmiers and Arquebusiers are not useless as you think. Guisarmiers appear a lot earlier then Knights, and they give a hard time to Armored Lancers. Arquebusiers seem too weak to be used, but have you checked how cheap they are? If you have an untouchable core, you may put arquebusier just to not have the instability caused by unhappy from lack of garrison and move you trained archery units to your borders, and if you need a group of troops (specially cannon fodder) you may produce arquebusiers quicker then anything else. A city with a single Pikeman and a single Longbow may be attacked by a stack of 5 Knights and lose. A city with a single Pikeman and 4 Arquebusier hardly will be attacked by a stack of 5 Knights, the AI will wait to get more units giving you more time to make even more troops.

An Arquebusier costs 60:hammers:, has 7:strength: and no bonuses.
The Arbalestier costs 80:hammers:, has 6:strength: and 50% vs. Hvy Inf and Hvy Cav
A Longbowman costs 110:hammers:, has 8:strength: and 25% City and Hills Def and 25% vs. Hvy Cav

Of course both the Arbalestier and Longbowman are better defenders then the Arquebusier, but it's cheap! And the Arquebusier is useful in lots of situations, different from the defensive archery units you can make. As a sacrifice they are a lot better then both the Arbalestier and the Longbow, as most of the times the annoying unit that needs to be attacked by a suicidal unit is an archery unit, something neither the arbalestier nor the longbow has any advantage against. To lure your opponents into a strategic position, nothing better then an Arquebusier.

At the time you may build these 3 units: Arbalestiers are only good behind city walls, the Longbow may be used for field control in hills and the arquebusier is the bulk of your army to be used in any situation and give you some advantage.

But I have to agree with you that I don't like them either (Guisarmier and Arquebusier), but that's a problem in my strategy. I usually make a Horde State, producing Light and Heavy Cavalry a lot and using their High Mobility to take everything. Sometimes it works, some it doesn't. I'm sure if I follow what I've written here, my warfares would be a lot more successful.
 
For the first question: Of course! The plague kills one unit when it enters, and then it keeps hurting the rest of your units by turn. But you heal by turn as well. A medic enhances your healing, so it is useful against plagues, specially for your biggest garrisons, as in bigger garrisons the plague strikes harder.

Huh, that explains why the plague never seems to hit me as hard in my Cordoba games. And I thought I was just lucky too. :crazyeye:
 
You don't say OP.
I was trying my first game on Emperor in RFCE (after an extremely easy and thus disapoiting game with Spain on Monarch) as the migthy scourge of god Poland.

I played seriously, with city planning and all, however I decided to play peacefully (honestly I prefer playing like that rather than taking the best non core land/play to win, as it makes playing with most nations the same)
But the plague, just kept me weak, the mongols for some reason retreated after taking a city in galizia and I only had to kill ike 4 keshiks.
And then the germans came with around 30-50 knigths and bombards, and thus poland was partitioned.

Damn.
 
Poland's only friend is Hungary, as in real life
They are usually weak though when Poland need help the most

But yeah, Poland has very few friends, and I think it's great! (not for Poland, for the gameplay :))
So I intend to keep it this way
Problem is, I often see Poland and Hungary at war in this game. Maybe they can use a bit more hidden relations buffs.

Usually it's Hungary beating the crap out of Poland and taking 2~3 of its southern cities with SoDs of Huszars and Knights, stopping only when their Stability becomes really bad. It happens more often than Hungary destroying Austria, which I think is really strange. And if that doesn't happen, Poland would usually be annexed (either completely, or Vassalized) by Germany instead. It's kind of sad to watch really.

Hungary-Poland wars happen most often when I play as the Ottomans too. I'd like to think it's partly the result of my diplomacy. :cool:
 
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