Naval Warfare

Naval warfare needs to be redone in the Medieval, early Renaissance, and modern eras.

Please give suggestions not only about units like I am doing, but also AI tweaks in relation to their naval strategy.

Currently, Triremes are still needed until Astronomy, when Galleons turn into the dominant vessels, then until Military science when Privateers and Frigates are available.

In the modern era, a suggestion in the thread of that name was made:

great.taurus said:

A simple suggestion to remedy one of the more immersion breaking elements of the game:

I suggest the addition of a (relatively weak) modern era naval unit which does not require oil. There is invariably insufficient oil for every naval nation, and it is silly to see frigates and ships of the line during the 20th century.

In balance terms - this would mean oil would give nations an advantage in raw strength, and more flexibility in terms of unit choice, they would not be untouchable at sea. This brings oil into line with other strategic resources like Iron or Horses.

I know that there is art for a "Cruiser" unit in Road to War (although I'm not sure where it originally came from), which would be appropriate I think.

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For each naval period, there should be a transport, a transport killer, a transport protector, and a unit other than the transport that doesn't need need resources.

Currently, there are three of these naval eras not taking into account any UUs:

Ancient to early Renaissance: This one is way too long.
Transport: Galley, carries 2, 2, 3. No ocean or cape.
Transport Killer: Trireme, 2, 3. +50% against galley. No ocean or cape.
Transport protector: Trireme also, see above.
None require resources.

Somewhere in there is Caravel. They belong in a Medieval to Renaissance, but should be easily beatable. Currently, they are fully dominant until Astronomy with 3, 5.

Renaissance to Industrial: This I think is the best done, but should be more split.
Transport: Galleon, carries 3, 4, 6.
Transport Killer: Privateer/Frigate, requires Copper or Iron/Iron, 6, 6/8, 6.
Transport Protector: Frigate/Ship of the Line, requires Iron/Iron, 8, 6/8, 5. Ship of the Lines have +50% against frigate.
Galleon does not require resources, which is correct.

Ironclad is stuck in the middle like Caravel. It requires coal, but doesn't move fast enough to catch the others, and cannot enter ocean. 12, 4.

Modern to Future: I'll put which by name they should be, rather than what they are.
Transport: Transport, requires Oil or Uranium, carries 4, 16, 8. Also Carrier, requires Oil or Uranium, carries 3 fighters, 16, 8.
Transport Killer: Submarine/Missile Cruiser, requires Oil or Uranium/Oil or Uranium, 24, 9/40, 10. Both can carry Missiles, Submarine Tactical Nukes. Missile cruiser gives collateral damage.
Transport Protector: Destroyer/Battleship, requires Oil or Uranium/Oil or Uranium, 30, 11/40, 9. Battleship gives collateral damage, Destroyer can see Submarines.
Nothing that does not require resources. This is where the cruiser comes in.

Get rid of Stealth Destroyer and Attack Submarines. They are both Cold War fantasies that are both pointless and inefficient.

Here are my suggestions. There is a lot of strength range to work with in the renaissance to modern eras, so Renaissance ships should be moved up 2-4 in strength.

There needs to be a more early and late medieval naval eras. Triremes until Astronomy just doesn't work.
For transport, I would implement a cog. The cog will be available at guilds, carries 3, and is extremely slow, probably with 2.
The killer will be available at guilds be 4 , with bonuses against longboat and cog, but very weak attacking Galleon.
The protector will be available at compass, be 5 , but cannot attack.

In the Renaissance, Privateer should move back to Astronomy and a new unit, War Galleon, should be put in as a protector. It should require Copper or Iron and be strong against Privateer.

I don't have much to comment on the modern except for a yes on a "cruiser" and the eliminations mentioned above.

Just a cog, no longboat. That'd make too many transports. There should be a set for each era. Combine the suggestions.

In summary for the Medieval stuff:

Transport: Cog. 3 strength, 3 movement, carries 3. Civil Service.
Killer: "Galleass" 4 stength, 3 movement, +25% against cog. Guilds.
Protector: Caravel 3 Strength, 5 movement, +50% against Galleass. Optics. Carries 1 non-military unit.

Still thinking about the Industro-Modern stuff. Something involving changing the submarines around.

There definitely may be room for improvement, but I think you need to work it backwards. Start witth vessels that actually existed when, where and how they were used. For example, vikings need a longboat, but arabs shouldn't get it. So make it require vikings UB. I don't know enough about naval history, but I know if changes are made, I would want it to add to the historical nature and flavour of the mod not take away from it.

I've always thought that the Viking UU should be the longboat. they were actually unique.

and the Galleass and the Dreadnought are 2 obvious and iconic rulers-of-the-waves-in-their-times that are not in the game.

also the whole idea of the wwI-wwII era "Battle Cruiser": heavy guns, light armor, fast so like destroyer stats but with a large bonus, taking it near battleship strength, attacking other ships only. that could be fun.

While we are talking about naval warfare, I think we should add in sea to shore bombardment as well, if possible. While giving ships the ability to destroy fortifications is good, they should be able to destroy improvements and damage enemy units along the coast. This could come into play as soon Ships of the Line arrive, and could give new incentive for rapid amphibious assaults.

srpt said:

I've always thought that the Viking UU should be the longboat. they were actually unique.

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Indeed. Replaces Trireme as to make it so that they are the only type of Viking ship, are strong against galley, Trireme, and cog. No penalty for attacking from them.

Also to consider is making ships in general cheaper to build and maintain. Ability to have more vessels=more need for the protection of them, as there is a higher chance of "random" interaction during a war, or directly after astronomy piracy. There should be a large threat to transport vessels, especially galleons from rivals' privateers.

Ancient and Classical
Transport: Galley, carries 2, 2, 3. No ocean or cape.
Transport Killer: Trireme, 2, 3. +50% against galley. No ocean or cape.

Transport: Cog. 3 strength, 3 movement, carries 3. Civil Service. No ocean or cape
Killer: Galleass 4 stength, 3 movement, +25% against cog. Guilds. No ocean or cape
Protector: Caravel 3 Strength, 5 movement, +50% against Galleass. Optics. Carries 1 non-military unit.

Renaissance
Transport: Galleon 6 strength, 6 movement, carries 4, Astronomy
Transport Killer: Frigate 9 strength, 6 movement, Astronomy+Military Science
Transport protector: Ship of the Line 12 strength, 5 movement, Astronomy+Chemistry

Early Industrial
Transport: Early Troop Transport 12 strength, 7 movement, carries 4, Astronomy, Steel
Transport Killer: Ironclad, 15 strength, 7 movement, Astronomy+Steam-Power+Steel requires iron and coal
Transport protector: Pre-Dreadnought, 18 strength, 6 movement, Railroad+Physics requires iron and coal

Industrial
Transport: Late Troop Transport, 16 Strength, 8 movement, carries 5, Combustion
Transport Killer: Battlecruiser, 20 strength, 8 movement, Steam-Power, Steel and Physics
Transport protector: Dreadnought; 23 strength; 7 movement; Artillery and Railroad; require iron and coal or oil

Modern
Transport: Modern Troop Transport 18 Strength, 9 movement, carries 6, Combustion and Electricity
Cruiser Ship: Destroyer 30 Strength, 9 movement Combustion, Oil or Uranium
Battle ship: Battleship 40 strength, 8 Movement, Collateral Damage, Industrialism, Oil or Uranium
Other: Aircraft Carrier 20 Strength, 9 movement, Radio and Flight
Other2: Submarine 25 strength, 10 movement, Radio Oil or Uranium


Fair enough?

Too many ships. Just one set for each era.

Actually okay. I would just apply the Renaissance to the Early industrial, or directly after Rifling as generally the Frigates and Ships of the Line continued well into the modern era. I would still press a War Galleon for protection and more Privateers for killer in the early Renaissance.

Ironclads were used historically on rivers exclusively. Naval warfare does not extend to rivers in game, so what was used on the open sea, wooden ships, should still be used until Combustion.

A problem with the Early industrial era is that the only wars really to look at are the imperialist and anti-imperialist along with the American Civil War. Not too much worldwide to look at naval operations.

Hippo8085 said:

Actually okay. I would just apply the Renaissance to the Early industrial, or directly after Rifling as generally the Frigates and Ships of the Line continued well into the modern era. I would still press a War Galleon for protection and more Privateers for killer in the early Renaissance.

Ironclads were used historically on rivers exclusively. Naval warfare does not extend to rivers in game, so what was used on the open sea, wooden ships, should still be used until Combustion.

A problem with the Early industrial era is that the only wars really to look at are the imperialist and anti-imperialist along with the American Civil War. Not too much worldwide to look at naval operations.

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That's a monitor


This is an ironclad and it is ocean-worthy, it was finished in 1855, the Steel tech in game represents the Bessemer process which was patented in 1855


Since there is no river combat the only one to be represent is the ocean-worthy one

the best way to represent Viking longships is to give huscarls a movement bonus on river tiles

jammerculture said:

the best way to represent Viking longships is to give huscarls a movement bonus on river tiles

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Very interesting idea.

PS And I agree that there should be some changes to naval units. IMO in original Civ IV and BtS they were overlooked by Firex. But big question is can AI handle new navy units...

Zaduzai said:

Very interesting idea.

PS And I agree that there should be some changes to naval units. IMO in original Civ IV and BtS they were overlooked by Firex. But big question is can AI handle new navy units...

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AI can handle new units as long as it uses an already existing strategy.

Nah bro, main problem is in-game sea-trade doesn't matter nearly as much as it should. In practice you can be a completely landlocked civ with trade routes from Ethiopia to Korea.

Amphibious should give a bonus to units attacking from sea if anything, it's scarcely if ever viable for any Civ other than Vikings.

Bringing this back to go with my suggestion in the main thread. Does anyone have any new ideas/opinions on this issue?

I think adding another tier of ships to represent steamships might remedy the "ship of the line in modern settings" problem. Coal is more widespread than oil, and was an important resource before internal combustion engines became commonplace. While not perfect, i think they might better represent what a modern navy without oil would look like