Trade Routes; Dutch/Arabian UA?

Heinage · Mar 16, 2013

http://www.firaxis.com/?/games/single/sid-meiers-civilization-v-brave-new-world said:
International Trade Routes: Build your cities into hubs of international trade by land and sea, creating great wealth and prosperity for your people, while also spreading religion, cultural influence, and science. The number of trade routes increases through the advancement of economics and technologies, the creation of wonders and the unique abilities of your civilization. Will you connect to a closer city for a lower payoff and a safer route, choose a longer route with more risk for the bigger payoff, or perhaps point your trade route inward, sending vitally important food and production to the far corners of your own empire?

Is it possible that 1 or 2 existing civs will have their UA changed to make use of the new Trade Routes mechanic. Is that what is implied by Firaxis on their official announcement page?

If so, do you think that the Dutch and/or Arabians will be the civs which have their UAs enhanced?

My preference would be for the Dutch to get 1 or 2 extra Trade Routes than other civs. This would be both historically accurate and at the same time enhance their UA just a little bit so that it isn't merely a weak bazaar. I would envision that they also retain their ability to trade their last resources while keeping 50% happiness.

Seeing as England gained an extra Spy with their UA enhancement through G&K, it is certainly not unprecedented that they change existing civs UAs to make use of new mechanics. This gives me hope

ShahJahanII · Mar 16, 2013

Heinage said:
Is it possible that 1 or 2 existing civs will have their UA changed to make use of the new Trade Routes mechanic. Is that what is implied by Firaxis on their official announcement page?

If so, do you think that the Dutch and/or Arabians will be the civs which have their UAs enhanced?

My preference would be for the Dutch to get 1 or 2 extra Trade Routes than other civs. This would be both historically accurate and at the same time enhance their UA just a little bit so that it isn't merely a weak bazaar. I would envision that they also retain their ability to trade their last resources while keeping 50% happiness.

Seeing as England gained an extra Spy with their UA enhancement through G&K, it is certainly not unprecedented that they change existing civs UAs to make use of new mechanics. This gives me hope

Interesting find, I didn't notice that in the description. It may actually apply to Portugal instead of the Netherlands. Not that we know for sure Portugal is going to be included in this expansion, but it is very likely seeing as a lot of it is focused on trades. It would make a ton of sense if it applied to the Arabs though.

Furycrab · Mar 16, 2013

There's going to be a lot of changes. I'm just liking the idea that "gold" is something you work to get lots of... Not something you more or less fall into with high pops, rivers and coasts.

Louis XXIV · Mar 16, 2013

It's possible. I also see a plausible argument for new civ having this ability.

ahawk · Mar 16, 2013

I would think the Arabs would be #1 in the list for a change to UA's, given what we know about the trade routes.

Dutch could go either way. I could see them having one extra sea trade route, or one free trade ship (their tradeships were famously seaworthy) unlocked with astronomy or something. I could also see them staying as they are, given that Portugal would likely have sea or trade-related UA bonuses.

A bit off-topic, but related to UA issues, bearing in mind I haven't actually looked very much through the announcements as of yet, but:
Will trading posts be moved back down in the tech tree to compensate for not getting gold-yield along rivers? If not, then I might expect a few other changes as well, namely the American UA, the German UA, the Ottoman UA, and a few others, as suddenly saving money on unit maitenence, improvement maintence, and tile-buying may not be such a great bonus when there's so little money in the early game anyways. This goes doubly on Duel maps, where the number of possible trade-routes will be low, and the routes themselves short. Of course, who knows how economics will ultimately appear once every new detail is known.

Heinage · Mar 16, 2013

ahawk said:
I would think the Arabs would be #1 in the list for a change to UA's, given what we know about the trade routes.

Dutch could go either way. I could see them having one extra sea trade route, or one free trade ship (their tradeships were famously seaworthy) unlocked with astronomy or something. I could also see them staying as they are, given that Portugal would likely have sea or trade-related UA bonuses.

Yeah I was thinking they could perhaps give the Dutch 1 extra sea trade route and the Arabs 1 extra land trade route.
I also like the idea of the free trade ship. I hadn't thought of that. Or perhaps their trade ships could be buffed in some way.

Also, someone mentioned Portugal. Again a good point. Perhaps their UA also has something to do with the trade routes.

seasnake · Mar 16, 2013

maybe something like arab caravans have a movement bonus and double range on land, dutch ships can defend themselves without escort, portugal trade ships are faster and sail farther, england has bonus routes, spain earns extra gold from sea routes, ottomans earn double gold from plundering caravans and merchantmen.

seancolorado · Mar 16, 2013

Possibilities:

1. Netherlands/Arabia/Spain/Ottomans/etc gets a tweak to their UA. Very possible. I wouldn't even rule out another civ getting an overhaul

2. Speaking of another civ getting an overhaul: India. Think about it - their UA is awful and surely everybody knows that. They were in a powerfully strategic spot between Middle East and Southeast Asia.

3. Speaking of Southeast Asia: Indonesia. In the ideas thread people kept throwing out trade route ideas for an Indo/Majapahit UA. Of all of our wild guesses, this is one I could see as actually being close to true. The Dutch UA is practically named after Indonesia and the Portuguese also established significant trading posts there.

4. Speaking of the Portuguese: Portugal would be the perfect civ for this mechanic and the one we all expect more than other civs to be included

Heinage · Mar 16, 2013

lol, I was just about to edit my post to say perhaps the Dutch trade ships could defend themselves better, but then I saw seasnake's post above.

@seasnake, yep lots of good ideas there!

Louis XXIV · Mar 16, 2013

seancolorado said:
4. Speaking of the Portuguese: Portugal would be the perfect civ for this mechanic and the one we all expect more than other civs to be included

Yeah. While I actually made the argument before that Portugal was too close to other European civs and suggested they be left out for a change*, trade routes, combined with a scramble for Africa scenario, suggests they'll be in.

* I've given up on most powerful empires or geographic diversity as main motivators for civs. Instead, it seems like playstyle diversity is their most important goal.

CanaDutch · Mar 16, 2013

I'd love to see the an enhanced UA for the Dutch, they're my favorite Civ to play as

.

seasnake · Mar 16, 2013

Louis XXIV said:
Yeah. While I actually made the argument before that Portugal was too close to other European civs and suggested they be left out for a change*, trade routes, combined with a scramble for Africa scenario, suggests they'll be in.

* I've given up on most powerful empires or geographic diversity as main motivators for civs. Instead, it seems like playstyle diversity is their most important goal.

just curious what powerful or influential civs do you think have been neglected?

bite · Mar 16, 2013

There was some mention that they were changing some of the old civ bonuses so this is not outside the realm of possibility

HeraldtheGreat · Mar 16, 2013

Thoughts on tweaks for:

Netherlands: Retain 50% of the :c5happy:

happiness benefits from a Luxury Resource if your last copy of it is traded away. Free Merchant Fleet every water tech after sailing is researched (Optics, Compass, Astronomy, Navigation).

Arabia: Double :c5moves:

movement of Caravan units. +1 :c5gold:

gold from

trade routes. Double Oil resource.

Portugal: Free Merchant Fleet for every two cities founded on seperate continent from the :c5capital:

Capital.

Ottomans: Melee naval units have Prize Ships promotion, capturing defeated ships. Pay only one-third usual cost for naval unit maintenance. Can capture enemy Merchant Fleets.

Majapahits/Srivijaya: Each sea :c5trade:

Trade Route with a :c5citystate:

City-State provides +33% :c5gold:

gold. Recieve two Merchant Fleets at begining of game (instead of one Merchant Fleet and one Caravan).

Louis XXIV · Mar 17, 2013

seasnake said:
just curious what powerful or influential civs do you think have been neglected?

Well, there's always someone with relative importance that's worth thinking about - for example, Venice and the Almoravids. I could probably make a longer list. For awhile Assyria would be on it, but it looks like that's being finally rectified.

Heinage · Mar 17, 2013

I don't think there will be more than 3 civs which have something trade route related in their UA.
Therefore I'm limiting my speculation to the Dutch, the Arabs, and the Portuguese being the civs which will have something trade route related in their UA (or UU/UB/UI).
Am being called for dinner so will post my current guesses later

AessaSH · Mar 17, 2013

IMO.., they will likely only overhaul one civ (maybe Arabs for the sake of their UA's name) and leave the other two slots for the new civs..

Heinage · Mar 17, 2013

Having thought about and read some of the above posts, here is my current guess of how the UAs could end up looking:

Netherlands - Dutch East India Company - Retain 50% of the :c5happy:

happiness benefits from a Luxury Resource if your last copy of it is traded away. Upon discovery of Navigation, gain 2 extra :c5trade:

Sea Trade Routes. Trade Ships start with x promotion. (where x is some kind of promotion giving Trade units extra strength when defending)

Arabia - Trade Caravans - Caravans move at double speed. :c5trade:

Land Trade Routes yield 25% extra for both Civilizations involved. Oil Resources provide double quantity.

Portugal - Global Empire - 1 free :c5trade:

Sea Trade Route for each city settled on a different continent than your :c5capital:

capital.

Great Merchants earned at double speed.

elprofesor · Mar 17, 2013

Basing myself on G+K, it seems like they don't like changing current UAs. If I remember correctly, the only changes were the way the Ottomans UA worked, and an extra spy to England, which wasn't as much changing their UAs as giving them an extra oomph, given that they were by and large considered the WORST civs in vanilla.

I've been away from the forums for a while, but I believe the Dutch and the Arabs are still considered solid civs, aren't they?

Heinage · Mar 17, 2013

http://www.civilized.de/www/content/index.php?cat=reports_civ5_bnw_ed_01_en said:
Caravan units (the earliest trade unit) become available after youve researched Animal Husbandry. They can be used to establish land-based trade routes, and have a limited range that they can travel. Even though you can only have a single trade route at the beginning of the game, you unlock additional trade routes as your civilization becomes more advanced.

Having read this new piece of information from the new Ed Beach interview makes me want to update my guess for a reworked Arabian UA.

Arabia - Trade Caravans - Caravans move at double speed and have an unlimited range. Oil Resources provide double quantity.

Trade Routes; Dutch/Arabian UA?

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