Which of the ORIGINAL civilizations deserve a UA/UU/UB change the most?

I am curious to see which of the original 18 civilizations people think need a serious UA/UU/UB change for the upcoming DLC, "A Brave New World".

Go ahead and provide your ideas of better unique abilities, unique units, and unique buildings. Provide good reasons as well.

(*Choose 3*) and enjoy the poll!

America: Units are good, UA might need a little change.
Tile buying is cool but the bigger sight, while good, could be moved for minuteman and changed into something. Maybe something industry or gold -related.

China: The UA would suit a civ like Germany more I think, I don't like China as a warmonger. On the other hand Great Generals can be used defensive as building Citadels which is nice.

Ottoman: Somehow a boring Unique Ability, I'd like something city-state or faith -related.

America: Tile discounts are a horrid bonus. There might be two instances in a game, on any sized map, where you'd want to buy tiles (to snag resources on a border). Yay 50 gold . The extra sight range is ok but doesn't synergize with their Minutemen's bonus, nor does said bonus really make much difference in a game as the rest of your units can't move through rough terrain as quickly as they can anyways. B-17s come too late and Bombers are pretty strong without the free upgrades (Evasion is nice, the city bonus goes lost to me as I usually take bombardment; Bombers are best used to erase the oppositions forces, from there the cities fall anyways).

Arabia: With Trade Routes being a major feature in BNW, I don't see how this civ could not be changed. On the other side of that coin, they didn't receive any religious bonuses with G&K and it's hard to think of a civ with stronger ties to religion than Arabia (which was literally founded for the sole purpose of spreading Islam).

Greece: G&K nerfed this civ soooo hard it's not funny they went from top three to bottom third. Companion Cavalry got nerfed through the unit shakeup and through the changes to city strength. Their bonus got relegated to practically nothing with Espionage. They deserve a buff somewhere.

Honorable Mention: India: Happiness is broken thanks to religion removing any real limitations it had past the Clasical Era. On top of that, City unhappiness went up and the penalty part of India's UA went up as well.

India/Greece--I've ranted enough about them so no need to really explain my reasoning.

Went with Ottomans for the third. I think they were going for the whole idea when the Ottoman empire was first formed and they beefed up naval power to compete on the Mediterranean. Which is fine, but never really liked how it operated. Would rather have something like the naval version of Ducal Stables.

Edit: And I wouldn't mind Germany getting some static boost to production as well, but I prefer their "conversion" over Ottoman's because gold is more important in the early game and Bismark can focus on other things while relying on barb camps to bolster early-game defense. By the time Ottomans will be pushing naval power, the converted triremes and galleases end up as trash to throw at cities as a decoy and nothing more.

India - Intro text states its the home of three great religions, yet it gets no faith bonuses whatsoever.

Germany - Mostly luck based UA which is only relevant during the first few turns. Hate it.

Japan - Interesting and culturally appropriate, but since the 100 HP combat has been around, is really weak (patched with a weak UU and a later pathetic UU makes Japan awful)

voted for India and Ottomans

Bobert13 said:

Greece: G&K nerfed this civ soooo hard it's not funny they went from top three to bottom third. Companion Cavalry got nerfed through the unit shakeup and through the changes to city strength. Their bonus got relegated to practically nothing with Espionage. They deserve a buff somewhere.

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With the right religion, Greece essentially has a stranglehold on any City-State it wants until you get to espionage. That's still pretty good.

My vote is for India first and foremost. Once again, it doesn't have to be the UA improved if other things are good (I could see a Tourism bonus for Mughal Forts), but the penalty seems bizarrely inconsistent with Civ5 design strategy and happiness is less important than it once was.

I'd also add America. The LoS bonus is nice and I really do enjoy Minutemen, but neither is quite powerful enough overall to make up for their relative late game focus and no real strategy to win the game.

Haig said:

China: The UA would suit a civ like Germany more I think, I don't like China as a warmonger. On the other hand Great Generals can be used defensive as building Citadels which is nice.

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China is an everything Civ, not just war-monger. Chu's are just as awesome on defense as they are on offense, and the extra great generals can be placed around your borders to create an amazing stronghold. Combine with the Great Wall for flavor and overkill on the defense

1. India, because let's face it, nobody wants to get your entire empire wiped out by unhappiness from one city.

2. Japan. Of course keep Bushido and Samurai, but it's Zero I want to see changed. I find it annoying that it references a period in Japanese history that people there want to forget. It's American stereotyping, it would be like making their UA Pearl Harbour related. Thankfully they didn't do that. There are so many UUs and particularly UBs that could come out of Japan (I should know - most of my Civ5 modding career is spent thinking of them), but yet they chose a WW2 one.

3. Songhai. They need a boost to their UA, which is the worst in the game with the possible exception of India. It's very dependent on the map: rivers sometimes are almost nonexistent or are in the middle of open terrain anyway, naval combat improvements in G&K made the amphibious part irrelevant, and the gold pillaging only comes into play if you are fighting an expansionist civ like Russia.

India, all the way... As many have stated, they chould get a Faith bonus rather than simply get population growth...

Leugi said:

India, all the way... As many have stated, they chould get a Faith bonus rather than simply get population growth...

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I love the Indian UA, it's extremely usefull for a skillfull player. This ability also makes India very unique in possible playstyles.

Luckystrike77 said:

I love the Indian UA, it's extremely usefull for a skillfull player. This ability also makes India very unique in possible playstyles.

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Perhaps, but to me its more a matter of how stereotypical it is to have "Population Growth" for India, and a matter of the penalty too...

Leugi said:

Perhaps, but to me its more a matter of how stereotypical it is to have "Population Growth" for India, and a matter of the penalty too...

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Stereothypical? That's just fun, especially when it adds to the collection of possible strategies with different civs. And it's not like there's only one strategy With Gandhi, you can og both tall, wide or something in between. It's just that good timing can be alot more well rewarded, and timing is also very vital for success.

Penalty? It's only a short term penalty taken for a better long term good. Penelties are fun to work arround so they hit you as harmless as possible.

China. I can see where they're coming from with the Great Generals thing (Sun Tzu, the Three Kingdoms period), but I don't think that really summarizes what Chinese civilization has been about, historically. I think something science-related (think of all the things invented in China centuries before anyone else got hold of them) or culture-related (as they spent centuries as the source of culture and learning in East Asia to which even their civilized neighbors looked with awe) would be more appropriate. And now that we're at BNW, "Art of War" can still be worked in: Make Sun Tzu a Great Writer, and have "The Art of War" be his associated Great Work.

I think India US should be changed in some way. Make it so that there is no penalty, but the positive bonus is smaller.

Haig said:

America: Units are good, UA might need a little change.
Tile buying is cool but the bigger sight, while good, could be moved for minuteman and changed into something. Maybe something industry or gold -related.

China: The UA would suit a civ like Germany more I think, I don't like China as a warmonger. On the other hand Great Generals can be used defensive as building Citadels which is nice.

Ottoman: Somehow a boring Unique Ability, I'd like something city-state or faith -related.

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Ottoman UA is great on maps with a lot of sea and barbarians. It's like having al your ships as privateers. You get a huge armada with that.

I selected India, Germany, and Japan.

1. I've covered my opinion on India in the past; while I'm not greatly pleased by the UU and UB, they're tolerable. What really needs a change is the UA. I'd favor:

Sacred Rivers: Cities adjacent to a river receive +10% growth rate and +1 faith.

This would reflect India as a religious civilization, which it was, while also giving them a growth bonus to reflect the large population. Happiness can be dealt with in other ways (hey, maybe with that early faith bonus you can take Sacred Waters - you're going to want to settle on those rivers anyway!).

2. I've also talked about Germany in the past. Again, I'm content with the UUs (though I think the Landschnekt would be more appropriate as a Longswordsman replacement, as they also used Zweihanders besides the pikes). My favored alternate UAs:

Furor Teutonicus: Military buildings (Barracks, Armory, etc.) confer +1 production. Pay 25% less for land unit maintenance.

~or~

Furor Teutonicus: When at war with more than one foe, all land units receive a +15% combat bonus. Pay 25% less for land unit maintenance.

The former would reflect Germany's famed production while encouraging the development of military training buildings. Great synergy with the already low cost Landschnekt. The latter would reflect Germany's well documented tenacity when dealing with wars on multiple fronts.

3. As for Japan, Bushido and the Samurai are fine. The Zero is just bad. Very late game, not very iconic or culturally relevant, replaces a unit that is underutilized, and it barely improves the Fighter anyway. I'd rather have some sort of UB instead.

The new culture/tourism system could be worked into a revamped China. Maybe give them a stronger offensive culture, and/or make them more resistant to foreign cultures. That would represent how China historically tended to see itself as the center of the world, with all other nations being nothing more than varying degrees of barbarian. The UA could be called "The Middle Kingdom".

ferretbacon said:

As for Japan, Bushido and the Samurai are fine. The Zero is just bad. Very late game, not very iconic or culturally relevant, replaces a unit that is underutilized, and it barely improves the Fighter anyway. I'd rather have some sort of UB instead.

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As long as it isn't that stupid Shale Plant from Civ IV. Of course, Japan has a lot of possibilities. They could have a Samurai Castle as a Castle replacement. Someone somewhere suggested a Tea Garden as a replacement for the Garden, which would be pretty cool.

Edit: Or the onsen. I have no idea what it would do. If Civ V had a health system like Civ IV, it would be good for that. As it is, maybe Happiness and Culture?

India, Germany, Ottomans, Japan, America, Songhai.

India's UA is fairly good in the long run, but the beginning can be problematic, especially on lower maps where the penalty will be greater. An UA shouldn't penalize the player.

Germany: the barbarian-centric portion of the UA is just bad. Barbarian-centric UAs shouldn't exist. It doesn't even fit Germany's identity as industrial and military powerhouse at the time of Bismarck.

Ottomans: UA is too water-centric.

Japan: the Zero is horrible. I like the idea of replacing it with a tea house unique garden or unique factory building. The interaction between their UA and the similar autocracy policy needs to be looked at as well.

Songhai: the barbarian-centric portion of the UA is just bad.