Bangladesh factory collapses

Borachio

Borachio

Way past lunacy
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Jan 31, 2012
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26,698
Bangladesh factory collapse: police detain owners, as death toll exceeds 350. Reports of workers being ordered to Rana Plaza building on day before collapse despite cracks appearing and jolts being felt .



edit: better link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/27/bangladesh-collapsed-factory-owners-detained

So, what's the solution to this?

How much responsibility do the buyers of cheap clothing, made in places like Bangladesh, bear?

How willing would you be to buy more expensive clothing provided decent Health and Safety legislation was in place to protect workers?

What is the libertarian stance on this? (Do I really need to ask?)
 
Boycotting the goods doesn't actually work. It just increases the likelihood that they lose their jobs. Instead pressuring the country from inside to implement their laws strictly would be a better option(I assume their laws are good and implementation non-existant) .
 
This is actually the fault of American companies. They offshored production not just for low wages, but so that they didn't have to give a damn if their employees got killed. Much better for the bottom line that way.
 
The link did not work for me.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/27/bangladesh-collapsed-factory-owners-detained

Most people do not think about the condition of workers in Bangladesh until it is stuck in their face. Primark, Matalan and Mango are getting tens of millions of pounds of bad publicity other this.

From the Guardian link.

In London, demonstrators gathered outside Primark's flagship store in Oxford Street after it emerged that the chain used a floor of the Savar building. A petition has been launched calling for Primark and other brands, including Matalan and Mango, which used the factories, to compensate the families of workers killed or injured.
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Primark will loose sales until people forget. If it happens again it will damage the brand even more that time. Primark and other companies will be reviewing the factories they use and hopefully they will take action to protect their brand and so protect the workforce.

http://www.primark-ethicaltrading.co.uk/newsfaq/news/bangladesh_factory_collapse

Primark etc compete on price so they have grown in current market when many people have less money to spend. They do not compete so well on value for money so they will lose market share when people start to have more money to spend. Ethical problems will accelerate this trend.
 
Silurian said:
Primark will loose sales until people forget.
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I doubt that there will be any significant loss, merely a very small temporary
blip and only that if they fail to get the public relations right.

Very nearly all production for the UK clothes industry is offshored these days.

The impact of very low cost labour in countries like Bangladesh has not, does not
and can not result in any improvements in efficiencies in UK factories, but a closure
of factories and a desperate flight up market to invariable niche and expensive.

Such posh products are outside the budget of much of the population so their
choice is to limit purchases to boot sales, charity shops or buy foreign made goods.

If buying foreign made goods, they might as well buy as cheap as they can,
to minimise expenditure both their own and of the UK's foreign exchanges.

They will assume, and they are no doubt correct to assume this, that
paying more for the same quality is more than likely just benefiting merely
the shop chain's directors and shareholders who are buying from much the
same sweatshops but adding a higher margin.

Fact is we can not even trust the retail trade to know what meat they
are selling us. We don't take too seriously claims of ethical sourcing.
The timber costs 100% more because it comes from sustainable forests.
One very much suspects that the mark up to alleviate our consciences
merely pays for a convoluted paper chain. Carbon offsets is another example.

If anyone wants me to pay more for fair trade coffee. Then give me the name, address
and phone number of the farmer on the packet and a uniqe id for the transaction.
 
For most Fairtrade products including bananas, other fresh fruits, coffee, flowers, nuts, rice, spices and more the Fairtrade system requires these products to be physically traceable. This means they must be labelled and kept separate at every stage of their journey from the farmers groups to the shop shelves. However, when we attempted to introduce similar rules for products such as cocoa, sugar, tea and juice, we discovered that there is very little physical traceability in the way these sectors work.


For example, the chocolate industry is currently not always able to keep Fairtrade cocoa and non-Fairtrade cocoa separate at every stage of production from the cocoa field to the final bar. Cocoa beans are delivered in bulk by farmers and routinely mixed during shipping and in the manufacturing process.


Rather than not engaging with these sectors and losing Fairtrade sales opportunities for thousands of small farmers, Fairtrade has set up a system to ensure that manufacturers that want to use the FAIRTRADE Mark must buy the precise amount of produce they need from Fairtrade farmers that will be used in their final product. So, if a chocolate bar uses 500 tonnes of cocoa, then the manufacturer must purchase 500 tonnes of cocoa on Fairtrade terms, including the payment of an additional $200 Fairtrade Premium per tonne. This means that even if the beans are later mixed with non-Fairtrade beans - as often happens - Fairtrade cocoa farmers still get 100% of the benefits, and the better deal that the FAIRTRADE Mark stands for.


The Fairtrade Foundation’s mission is to support farmers and workers in the developing world to increase their share in global trade. Fairtrade’s stringent inspection and audit system is in place to ensure the amount of Fairtrade product manufactured exactly matches the amount of Fairtrade product purchased.
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http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/what_is_fairtrade/faqs.aspx

The fair trade organization is quite well established and seems to have a good reputation.

There's no reason a similar organization couldn't work for clothing manufacturers, guaranteeing proper working conditions. Or is this incorrect?
 
I particularly like the suicide prevention nets around the housing for the Chinese workers who make Apple products.

Sweatshops used to exist in this country not all that long ago. It was recently the 100th anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist fire which killed 146 garment workers. I am afraid they are inevitable until the standard of living is raised far higher than it is now worldwide. Until then, sweatshops will simply keep moving to different areas that aren't as regulated when improvements are finally made in the countries where they are now located.
 
Guilty here of buying clothing made in Bangladesh. Do I feel responsible for this tragedy?

Not in the slightest.

I used to be able to buy clothes that were well-made, decently priced, and made in Canada. Now it's a rare thing to find ANY items in the stores that were made in Canada. Since the climate, the laws, and my own personal preferences dictate that I must wear clothing, I have to buy what I can afford. I do make an effort to avoid Chinese-made stuff as much as possible.

And a lot of this "Fair Trade" stuff is anything but. There was an article on Care2 about Victoria's Secret lingerie... the cotton used in their skimpy-but-expensive merchandise is literally picked by SLAVE LABOR - CHILDREN. These kids get little/no money, not a lot of food, no education, and they're at risk of being beaten and raped.
 
Borachio said:
http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/what_is_fairtrade/faqs.aspx

The fair trade organization is quite well established and seems to have a good reputation.

There's no reason a similar organization couldn't work for clothing manufacturers, guaranteeing proper working conditions. Or is this incorrect?
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Fair Trade Coffee/Cocoa/Tea/etc sounds nice in practice, but its quite rightfully called out as a sham. Farmers see little real benefits, owners will abuse the label [Since there are no real standards or oversight on the term] and all that it results in are higher profits that see none or next to none of the benefits passed off to the grower.

"Fair Trade" goods oddly enough see less benefits for a Coffee farmer in Guatemala than non-fair trade and its the same often elsewhere - A scam, plain and simple
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Its disgusting to see how labor is treated in Bangladesh. The riots, fires, factory issues, etc. that happen are too frequent. The government of course won't legitimately act for the safety of their people. I don't have a solution, but I think the best thing to do would be to support activists within Bangladesh through organizations to fight for workers rights.
 
Valka D'Ur said:
Guilty here of buying clothing made in Bangladesh. Do I feel responsible for this tragedy?

Not in the slightest.

I used to be able to buy clothes that were well-made, decently priced, and made in Canada. Now it's a rare thing to find ANY items in the stores that were made in Canada. Since the climate, the laws, and my own personal preferences dictate that I must wear clothing, I have to buy what I can afford. I do make an effort to avoid Chinese-made stuff as much as possible.

And a lot of this "Fair Trade" stuff is anything but. There was an article on Care2 about Victoria's Secret lingerie... the cotton used in their skimpy-but-expensive merchandise is literally picked by SLAVE LABOR - CHILDREN. These kids get little/no money, not a lot of food, no education, and they're at risk of being beaten and raped.
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Why are you boycotting China?
 
Studies in the early 2000s show that the income, education and health of coffee producers involved with Fair Trade in Latin America were improved, versus producers who were not participating.[36] Brazil, Nicaragua, Peru and Guatemala, having the biggest population of coffee producers, make use of some of the most substantial land for coffee production in Latin America and do so by taking part in Fair Trade.[36]
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[36].Geiger-Onteo, Stephanie, and Eric J. Arnould. "Alternative Trade Organization and Subjective Quality of Life: The Case of Latin American Coffee Producers." Journal of Macromarketing (2011): 276-290.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Trade#cite_note-Geiger-Onteo.2C_Stephanie_2011-36
 
Check the cents per dollar involved. Often times its less than 1 cent per dollar earned that goes back to the community. The money goes into maintaining the marketing campaign that is "Fair Trade". Fair Trade and non fair trade goods are mixed without discrimination the majority of the time and what benefits do occur are from well intentioned farmers looking to improve the lives of their workers, not the "Fair Trade" label itself, which is a sham
 
Ah well. I'll concede to your better knowledge. I can't seem to access that study that wiki linked to (not easily anyway), so how would I know?

No doubt Fair Trade has its flaws. It is a long established organization with roots going back to WW2, though. And, if not perfect, it is a noble effort to make some difference. Certainly compared to multinationals whose only intent is profit for their shareholders.
 
From Fair Trade Int's own website:

Seeks to increase welfare for small farmers and communities

Guarantees a minimum market price plus 10- to 20-cent premium per pound
====

That minimum price tends to be only a few cents above "market price" and often simply goes to the cost of maintaining the license and can in cases actually detract from a worker's salary. The Fair Trade Label is for people who are too lazy to actually look at making a difference but who want to spend money to try and help a problem. Why solve a problem, when you can create an illusion that you are dealing with the problem and make a premium of millions of dollars each year off convinced middle class families in the US/Europe.

Its been compared you would have a better and bigger impact if you just threw the "premium" money out of a window

Sorry, I will have to hold back to not vomit at the word "Noble". Its intelligent at separating people from their pocketbooks, I'll give it that
 
contre said:
Why are you boycotting China?
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Because of how they treat animals, not to mention all the pets that died because of the toxic pet food that made it to North America from China. Luckily I didn't use any of the brands involved, but after that I made sure that none of what I feed my cats comes from China.
 
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800911000127

I know this link only works depending on your institution - This one I believe you can only access if you pay for: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-010-0508-z

But they all say the same thing, Fair Trade reduces producer power and moves power into the roaster and retailer cutting the floor from beneath growers
====

And your link shows where the licensing fee (but not the inspection or renewal fees) money goes to according to Fair Trade. The cooperatives pay for the license and any additional (or loss, but sometimes needed to compete in the market) profit is handled by the cooperative's head. Farmers don't see real returns
 
It doesn't exactly sound like a common occurance so legislation limiting certain foreign goods might be overkill.
I don't think you can blame western consumers and by extension western governments. At the end of the day you're just gonna force people into buying more expensive clothes by creating such barriers. Practically everbody loses if you do that.
 
Gucumatz said:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800911000127

I know this link only works depending on your institution - This one I believe you can only access if you pay for: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-010-0508-z

But they all say the same thing, Fair Trade reduces producer power and moves power into the roaster and retailer cutting the floor from beneath growers
====

And your link shows where the licensing fee (but not the inspection or renewal fees) money goes to according to Fair Trade. The cooperatives pay for the license and any additional (or loss, but sometimes needed to compete in the market) profit is handled by the cooperative's head. Farmers don't see real returns
Click to expand...

Ah well. If it's all true, and I'm not in any position to say it isn't, Fair Trade deserve a good kicking.
 
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