Argentina

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KievanRus

Chieftain
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Sep 20, 2010
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While Leoreth et al are focusing on the northern part of Latin America, we might as well start generating ideas for Argentina.

IMO:

Spawn date: ~1810 (Although not exactly, unless Mexico's respawn is moved. Maybe a couple turns earlier to set the game up for flip on 1810.)

Leaders: I haven't researched this enough, but I'm thinking Peron from 1946 at least.

UHVs: (1) Rank in the top 4 civs for commerce in 1916.
(2) Enter the Industrial Era by 1916.
Both of these are based on the Generation of '80.

So, that's my 2 cents for now.
 
either make Argentina spawn on 1808, so that the flip happens on 1810; or make it spawn on 1816. After all, they proclaimed their independence on 1816.

They could have as Leaders either Juan Perón (Second half of 20th Century), or Juan Manuel de Rosas (First half of the 19th Century)

Finally, I think say the UHVs could be:

(1) Rank in the top 4 civs for commerce in 1940.
(2) Enter the Industrial Era by 1916.
(3) Conquer the Falkland Islands, Uruguay, Paraguay and develop them by linking them commercially with Buenos Aires before 1940. (But, for that to actually be somewhat challenging, Uruguay, Falkland Islands and Paraguay would need to be auto settled, spawn with a decent contingent of troops and have "Insurgents" spawning from time to time. And not flip, obviously.)
 
Argentina should represent Chile as well. For territory:

Control the Strait of Magellan, the Atacama Desert, Patagonia, and Uruguay-Paraguay by 1940.

The Falklands are a bit specific, and though historical, of little gameplay value, where as the Strait of Magellan is less historical, but more useful.
 
Third UHV Goal, capture all of Britain's minor lumps of rock in the middle of the ocean. For strategic sheep purposes.
 
Argentina, Chile, and Brazil were all engaged in a naval race in the early 20th century... perhaps a goal to build a number of Ironclads or other ships?

The conquest goal might work, but it can be very easy to take independent cities... they'd have to have a hell of a stack to make it a challenge. Maybe move the date back earlier?

Either way, mobilizing a large military (either naval or land-based) and bumping your commerce way up at the same time could be a challenge.
 
I wonder if I might add something...

After Spanish Conquistadors introduced cattle and other herdables into Argentina, their populations exploded. One of Argentina's most important industries was the cattle industry. Unfortunately, the current world map does not reflect that, with Argentina having mostly corn as their food source.

I believe that if Argentina is to be added in-game, the corn needs to be replaced with cows or sheep.

There is a possible unique unit.

Unique unit: Gaucho

Replaces Cavalry.
•Less strength compared to normal cavalry.
•Can build pastures, and other improvements (Though improvements other than pastures take 50% longer to build).

More information about Gauchos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaucho

Unique Building: Estancia

Replaces stable.
+1 more experience to cavalry units than normal stables.
Bonus production for pastures within BFC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estancia
 
Sanguivorant said:
I wonder if I might add something...

After Spanish Conquistadors introduced cattle and other herdables into Argentina, their populations exploded. One of Argentina's most important industries was the cattle industry. Unfortunately, the current world map does not reflect that, with Argentina having mostly corn as their food source.

I believe that if Argentina is to be added in-game, the corn needs to be replaced with cows or sheep.

There is a possible unique unit.

Unique unit: Gaucho

Replaces Cavalry.
•Less strength compared to normal cavalry.
•Can build pastures, and other improvements (Though improvements other than pastures take 50% longer to build).

More information about Gauchos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaucho

Unique Building: Estancia

Replaces stable.
+1 more experience to cavalry units than normal stables.
Bonus production for pastures within BFC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estancia
Click to expand...

That's a pretty crappy UU and the UB seems a little underpowered
 
I like the ideas, but indeed, the UU lacks power and the UB should be better... Maybe make the UB have a +2 Trade Route/Commerce, and the UU have a bonus when fighting in Plains/Grassland?
 
Of course they're supposed to be crappy. That's where other people come in and convert it into sweet sugars and honeyz.

The idea is that Argentina's economy in the early stage of its nation relied on and flourished through the export of livestock and livestock products. In a way, the unique units, power and buildings should partially reflect this in a way.

Now with the units and buildings, I was merely bringing up historically accurate names.

Why did I choose the specific traits for the Gaucho?

The Gauchos were mainly nomadic riders that hunted wild cattle, and were not an actual fighting force, so that is why they are a bit weaker in strength.

They act like armed workers who specialize in building pastures, though not so good at building other improvements. Bonuses of training Gauchos over workers is that they don't require food, and thus cities can grow while building units that can make improvements.

These are merely ideas based on what I know about Gauchos. Anything is possible. Of course for this unit to be effective, South America needs to be changed so that there is an abundance of livestock in Argentina over other resources. Though I fear it might make Argentina the only civ that benefits from having cities close to each other.

I like the ideas, but indeed, the UU lacks power and the UB should be better... Maybe make the UB have a +2 Trade Route/Commerce, and the UU have a bonus when fighting in Plains/Grassland?
Click to expand...

I totally agree with those suggestions. Gauchos should probably have bonuses when fighting in plains.

Now that I think of it, it makes no sense for Estancias to have a production bonus. +2 commerce for every pasture in BFC would actually be more suitable, since it would represent how Argentina's economy grew through export of livestock from 1875.

The Iranian Caravanserai already gives trade routes, so to give the same for Estancias would not make it unique.
 
Sanguivorant said:
Of course they're supposed to be crappy. That's where other people come in and convert it into sweet sugars and honeyz.

The idea is that Argentina's economy in the early stage of its nation relied on and flourished through the export of livestock and livestock products. In a way, the unique units, power and buildings should partially reflect this in a way.

Now with the units and buildings, I was merely bringing up historically accurate names.

Why did I choose the specific traits for the Gaucho?

The Gauchos were mainly nomadic riders that hunted wild cattle, and were not an actual fighting force, so that is why they are a bit weaker in strength.

They act like armed workers who specialize in building pastures, though not so good at building other improvements. Bonuses of training Gauchos over workers is that they don't require food, and thus cities can grow while building units that can make improvements.

These are merely ideas based on what I know about Gauchos. Anything is possible. Of course for this unit to be effective, South America needs to be changed so that there is an abundance of livestock in Argentina over other resources.



I totally agree with those suggestions. Gauchos should probably have bonuses when fighting in plains.

Now that I think of it, it makes no sense for Estancias to have a production bonus. +2 commerce for every pasture in BFC would actually be more suitable, since it would represent how Argentina's economy grew through export of livestock from 1875.

The Iranian Caravanserai already gives trade routes, so to give the same for Estancias would not make it unique.
Click to expand...

Hey, thanks for backing me up :lol: I know a bit about those guys, having family over Argentina and all. While they didn't "fight" as a regular army, they were like cowboys of sorts. Thanks to them, the cattle industry boomed in Argentina; while they kept their herds safe from thieves, hostile Gauchos/natives, foreign troops. So we have to give them some merit. After all, Gauchos were nothing more that regular folk with guns that lived on the plains....

Estancias are a good alternative the way you're suggesting them. Another alternative, if SA is not revamped as to make livestock relevant (as it should be) would be to include a Salon-like building of sorts. Call it a "Tango Dancing Room", have it give some cultural bonuses and call it a day?
 
(bear in mind im chilean, so this post might be a little biased despite my best efforts to present a balanced point of view)

If an argentinian UHV is about territory control, it should include BOTH patagonia and tierra del fuego. The importance of the last one is in the control of the strait of magellan, which WAS a great deal before the panama canal (note that the strait is controlled by chile irl).

Locutus_Morti said:
Argentina should represent Chile as well. For territory:
Click to expand...

I see where you're coming from, but this suggestion bears the same problem as lumping Gran Colombia and Peru in one: both countries are quite different culturally. Chile is one case in DoC where an "independent" civ is the better fit, despite all the problems it carries. In sum: chile SHOULD be a thorn in argentina's side, an obstacle to be overcome.

To include control of chile in an argentinan UHV makes perfect sense, Chile have been at odds with Argentina from the inception of both countries all the way to the Falklands conflict; subduing chile would have given argentina much more power. However, including chile in argentina's core and flip zone? That's where i think we shouldn't go.

Locutus_Morti said:
The Falklands are a bit specific, and though historical, of little gameplay value, where as the Strait of Magellan is less historical, but more useful.
Click to expand...

The strategical value of the strait of magellan is quite historical. Just look at tow for beagle conflict.

Basically, while argentina recognized the chilean control of the strait in 1881, there was much discussion and nitpicking on the exact interpretation of the treaty and how it impacted the borders. That is telling on how important the region is. Just look at the possible border interpretations:

Spoiler :
Resume.arg.cart.en.png
 
I am from Argentina, so I think I may be useful in this

Spawn time: Argentina´s first local government appeared on 1810, and the independance was declared in 1816. So it should be between those years.
Leaders: Jose de San Martin spawn-1829, Juan Manuel de Rosas 1829-1852, Julio Argentino Roca 1852-1916, Hipolito Yrigoyen 1916-1943, Juan Domingo Peron 1943-1976, Raul Alfonsin 1976-present
UHVs: Control Chile, Bolivia, Uruguay, Paraguay and the north of Argentina by 1930
Rank in the top 4 civs for commerce in 1944.
UU: Granadero a Caballo: Cavalry with 14 strength and +25% against fusilemen
UB: It could be the Estancia or Soccer Stadium
The power of the Gauchos: Horses give +2 happiness

When the first local government started, Uruguay, Bolivia and Paraguay where part of the country.
The Granaderos a Caballo (mounted grenadiers) were San Martin's army which defeated the Spanish in Argentina, Chile and Bolivia
 
^ I like the ideas, but I think the UP can be stronger.

The power of the Gauchos: +2 :) from Hourse, and +1 :hammers:, +1 :commerce: from Pasture.

Usually in Modern Era I find it more valuable to Farm/Cottage on Horse resources. This may counteract that.
 
It could be something with the wine also
 
luckeitor said:
I am from Argentina, so I think I may be useful in this

Spawn time: Argentina´s first local government appeared on 1810, and the independance was declared in 1816. So it should be between those years.
Leaders: Jose de San Martin spawn-1829, Juan Manuel de Rosas 1829-1852, Julio Argentino Roca 1852-1916, Hipolito Yrigoyen 1916-1943, Juan Domingo Peron 1943-1976, Raul Alfonsin 1976-present
UHVs: Control Chile, Bolivia, Uruguay, Paraguay and the north of Argentina by 1930
Rank in the top 4 civs for commerce in 1944.
UU: Granadero a Caballo: Cavalry with 14 strength and +25% against fusilemen
UB: It could be the Estancia or Soccer Stadium
The power of the Gauchos: Horses give +2 happiness

When the first local government started, Uruguay, Bolivia and Paraguay where part of the country.
The Granaderos a Caballo (mounted grenadiers) were San Martin's army which defeated the Spanish in Argentina, Chile and Bolivia
Click to expand...

I like this one. The Argentinidad is strong in this one. I'd still include the Malvinas/Falkland Islands just for the hell of it. As in, a goal demanding the player/AI to conquer those regions and develop them up to some point. Make it the Estancia, a football based building for just one Civ wouldn't be alright (Unless you can make it include Fernando Niembro , then make it Argentina-specific :lol: )

From the looks of it, we'll eventually have to include Chile as a Civ as well. I support the idea, after all, we South Americans know that Chile has always been there up to something ;)
 
Mounted grenadiers were my choice for the UU as well.
 
Wondering Kid said:
From the looks of it, we'll eventually have to include Chile as a Civ as well. I support the idea, after all, we South Americans know that Chile has always been there up to something ;)
Click to expand...

I don't know, Chile impacted south america by keeping argentina in check and by meddling in Bolivia and Peru (Lima was occupied by chileans 3 times according to tow :crazyeye:). But that's it, chile had little further impact in the world, and is not a civ that can be represented in DoC.

Chile is the kind of civ that should be represented by independents, even though the mechanics are far from good. Alternatively, it is entirely reasonable to treat chile as a "british vassal" at first, and later as an "american vassal" (pinochet era); chile has always been a country that looks up and emulates the anglo americans (chilean economy is among the most liberal in socialist-happy south america). I don't even know how that can be done, but it would allow for a more realistic balkanization.
 
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