America, Austria, and Germany have lost their niche.

The Shoshone take the small advantages of tile buying away from America. Their unique scout means that the Americans have a lesser scouting advantage in comparison. The sight may still be useful for military purposes, but it seems relatively underwhelming now. America, being a modern nation and famous for being a superpower on a global scale, could make use of the new expansion in many ways.

UA: Each trade route with a Civilization provides +1 tourism after the industrial Era. Can spend tourism (don't know how much would be balanced) to buy extra World Congress Delegates. Cheaper tile buying.

Basically making econmic prosperity -> cultural pressure -> which leads to diplomatic power.

UU: B52

UB: Mall, replaces Colosseum, same happiness, +1 , +1% for every citizen in this city.

More to remold them into an economic force.

Other ideas to distinguish them from the Shoshone and use new mechanics would be great.

The Zulu and Germany, seem to be very similar with their cheaper maintenance. There's a whole thread on changing Germany so I will not add anything but say that Germany could be better represented even if you still want to focus on war.

Venice, while incredibly unique for it's puppet abilities and OCC flavor still has it's Merchant of Venice which is very similar to Austria. Austria has many other things that could be explored as game mechanics but this similarity might be the least prevalent as Venice has to focus on great merchants to acquire City-States while Austria just needs alliances. We'll probably have to wait and see.


Are these overlaps just a result of having 43 Civilizations in the game and not a big deal or poor design?

Dude, we don't even know if (and how) the already existing civs have changed..

Malestrom could confirm if other civs are changed though, that is if he's not already being slowly roasted over a fire by 2k

I'm betting because America and Germany are getting some sort of overhaul ala France with BNW. Not sure about Austria.

Gewoon Anders said:

Dude, we don't even know if (and how) the already existing civs have changed..

Click to expand...

That's kinda why I'm speculating possible changes here. It just seems odd that they'd use such similar civilization abilities for newcomers and not change it.

America and Germany (as well as India and Arabia) do indeed need changes. But the fact that Austria can fully annex cities and build their own distinguishes them enough from Venice. I just hope Venetian puppets can be liberated.

I'm hoping the overlap is a sign we'll see some much needed changes. A lot of the original 18 civilizations are comparatively lackluster to the new civs in G&K and BNW. I hope that Firaxis won't miss this opportunity to spruce some of the older civilizations up.

Germany's niche is converting camps early. It was quite powerful once in past, blame current combat system.

I bet wasting GP on GM and than wasting GM + gold to aquire city-state is a bit weaker than Austria's UA.

America's scouting is in no danger of Pathfinder (with increased production cost) unless it will pick maps in every ruin...

America's cheaper tiles is not unique at all, see Krepost.

ferretbacon said:

I'm hoping the overlap is a sign we'll see some much needed changes. A lot of the original 18 civilizations are comparatively lackluster to the new civs in G&K and BNW. I hope that Firaxis won't miss this opportunity to spruce some of the older civilizations up.

Click to expand...

Yeah, especially as they are mostly the historical heavy hitters and as such should be more powerful than the BNW and G&K civs.

If our speculation is correct, the barbarians get a new unit - the hand axe-man - this would give germany a 3rd unit unit basically.

Just as an idea

Bob_ said:

If our speculation is correct, the barbarians get a new unit - the hand axe-man - this would give germany a 3rd unit unit basically.

Just as an idea

Click to expand...

Huh, that's pretty interesting actually. What is the hand-axe's combat strengths?

we dont know. it would suck as a 3rd unique unit tho, unless it has some nice promotion that is carried with upgrading. i mean, how many units do you convert as germany per game in the ancient era? not more than 3 per average?

The main advantage of the hand-axe as a "German" Unique would be that it doesn't require a horse ressource. It does replace the chariot after all. I'm not sure how the combat stats compare to it though...

I don't see Germany being changed, as it would a) need a complete redesign of the civ (the Landsknecht is only useful due to the ability) and b) they'd need to find a new home for the "convert barbarians"-ability. It's too flavourful and fun to lose after all. It could fit with the Mongols, but I'm not sure they are going to make such sweeping changes...

America on the other hand could use some redesign, that is true. I can envision anything from a commerce to a tourism to a combination bonus, a wide playstyle and so on. So I'm not going to make prediction. Also, they don't need to change it..., they just should...

Giskler said:

Malestrom could confirm if other civs are changed though, that is if he's not already being slowly roasted over a fire by 2k

Click to expand...

Tried to ask him, but my thread got deleten by our dictators

Even though Austria's ability is now Venice's sort of, I still like Austria better. Austria can fully buy a city, and make it an essential part of your empire. Once, I was playing Austria and bought Budapest, Prague, and La Venta, and each produced at least one wonder for me if not two. (Budapest produced like 5.) Venice's new cities are there to support Venice, Austria's new cities become Venices in their own right. To me, Venice's main unique thing is the trade routes because Austria does the CS thing so much better. Germany and America I can understand being seen as replaced, but Austria still remains one of my top three favorite civs.

I do think there's something interest in that Austria and Venice are CS acquiring civs. Venice is arguably better, but Austria conquered Venice.

America and the Shoshone are exploration civs. The Shoshone are arguably better, but America conquered them.

That being said, look at civs in their totality. Would you rather the Coffee House and Hussar or Merchant of Venice and Great Galleass?

I would much rather have Diplomatic Marriage than Merchant of Venice, and I'd rather have Hussars than a Great Galleass. The real thing Venice has going for it are the extra trade routes. Everything else Austria has and does better. Would you rather occasionally puppet a city-state, or annex one almost anytime and get the full benefit of it?

I wouldn't say any time, it still takes effort to become allied with them and then spend gold to get them.

mitsho said:

The main advantage of the hand-axe as a "German" Unique would be that it doesn't require a horse ressource. It does replace the chariot after all. I'm not sure how the combat stats compare to it though...

I don't see Germany being changed, as it would a) need a complete redesign of the civ (the Landsknecht is only useful due to the ability) and b) they'd need to find a new home for the "convert barbarians"-ability. It's too flavourful and fun to lose after all. It could fit with the Mongols, but I'm not sure they are going to make such sweeping changes.

Click to expand...

I'm of the complete opposite opinion on the barbarian conversion: I think it's drab, I'll suited, and not particularly useful. I wouldn't want it to be reused elsewhere, but completely thrown out. There are many more options for Germany that would be more innovative, appropriate, and fun to play.

Louis XXIV said:

I wouldn't say any time, it still takes effort to become allied with them and then spend gold to get them.

Click to expand...

But still, if you've stockpiled the necessary gold then the option is always open. Since I like to play Austria diplomatically, I always had at least 250 gold on hand to maintain CS influence levels, and it doesn't take that much longer to get to 500. The point is that Austria's ability is far more accessible than Venice's, in terms of CS buying.