Big changes for England and Russia ideas

I just want to begin by saying that I think this modmod is incredible and that Leoreth has done a great job. The reason I created this thread is because England and Russia are both very unique and interesting civs to play, in fact they're two of my favorites. However, I do think that they should be changed. Keep in my that I'm just throwing ideas out there and if you see something you don't like, feel free to suggest something else. By no means am I an complete expert on either of these countries' histories, so if I've made a suggestion that's stupid from a historical standpoint, all I ask is that you don't burn me at the stake.

England
Spawn date, starting situation, and map changes:
First off I think it would be best to move England's spawn date to 1066. I'm pretty sure I've seen some people suggest this on this forum before. The reason for this is because there wasn't much going on in England between their 9th century spawn date and 1066. Of course there was Alfred the Great, but that time period was mostly just the Anglo-Saxons fending off the Vikings. 1066 is such a pivotal year in English history that I feel like it has to be represented somehow, and that the best way to do it would be to make it England's spawn date. Also, Scotland really should be removed from England's core and there should be both independent/Celtic Edinburgh and Dublin at the start of 600 A.D. (not sure when they should come in the 3000 B.C. scenario). Both of them should have strong units and walls (maybe even castles). This would make things much more interesting for early England as they try to unify the British isles. If there were an independent Edinburgh, the iron should probably be moved into London's BFC and it would probably be best to remove one (or maybe two) of the cow, sheep, or deer from London to make it less of a supercity in the middle ages.
UHV changes:
I know that the English UHV's have been changed since regular RFC but I think they are still pretty unrealistic. The British Empire hardly started by 1730 and the first to enter Industrial and Modern Eras goal essentially means be the first to discover Physics/Steel and Mass Media, and none of those techs were particularly unique for Britain. I think that the colonies goal should be moved way back to 1860. I know it would be a lot longer, but it makes the most sense historically IMO. It was before they granted Canada independence and after they had conquered India and Cape Colony and settled Australia and New Zealand. They also controlled all of their south and central American and Caribbean possessions. I don't know exactly how many cities the goal should require, but it should be more than it is currently . Also replace the industrial and modern era goal with be the first to discover constitution, economics, steam power and industrialism(maybe). I'm not sure about the ships goal. I can never get it done on time and I don't find it to be very fun, but I can't think of anything to replace it.
Other stuff:
-I don't think that redcoats are very good as a unique unit. They are certainly powerful, but they really weren't that different from other European riflemen, hence, not very unique.
-The UP is good, but it should probably give stability for colonies and cities on other continents in addition to lowered maintenance.

Russia
Spawn date, starting situation changes:
Now I'm even less knowledgeable about Russia than I am about England, so hopefully this will be shorter. I think the Russian spawn date should be pushed back as well to 1283 because this is when the Grand Duchy of Moscow started, at least, according to Wikipedia and Moscow wasn't even founded until the 12th century, so the current spawn date doesn't make much sense. I know that indie Kiev spawns, but its spawn should probably be pushed back into the 800s and maybe have an extra defensive unit along with a strong independent Novgorod. Now I think (but I'm not sure) that by 1283 IRL, the Mongols controlled or at least made vassals of those cities, so maybe we should make it so that by Russia's spawn, Mongolia should control Kiev and Novgorod, so the Russians would have to fight them if they want those cities.
UHV changes:
The Russians have good UHVs (better than the English), but they could still use a bit of tweaking. I've read this suggestion here before, but I'd like to bring it up again, which is that the first UHV should make you go to Tranxonia(I don't think I spelled that right), Mongolia, and Manchuria. This would be more fun, challenging, and historically realistic, but if it is this, the date should probably be set later. The second UHV is good too, but I think good additions to it would be to ensure that all your cities have power by 1930/1940 and to build Lubyanka. Also I wish that Apollo Program and Manhattan Project had more generic names, like space program or nuclear program (ok maybe those names are bad), but it's not that important. Finally I'll admit that I don't like the last goal very much because (no offense) I find it hard and kinda boring. A better goal IMO would be ensure that 50% or so of the world lives under communism, as this encourages multiple strategies, such as conquest, espionage and diplomacy.
Other stuff:
-I got this idea from iOnlySignIn, which is to make Cossacks available earlier (maybe Replaceable Parts instead of Rifling) and maybe have 1 extra strength, but no bonus against mounted units.
-Research Institutes could probably use a better name too.

And that's it! Sorry it was so long. If even one of my ideas are implemented, then I'd die a happy man.

About England, I don't think there's any way you could possibly do that tech goal with that massive empire without some quite gamey tactics (like settling all those cities a turn before and giving them away) or otherwise beelining and missing out on a lot of other techs. You're asking for 38 cities plus likely at least 3 in your core, many of which will be pretty bad (there's probably only about 5 decent city spots in Oceania). I personally think the UHVs are fine as is. And while redcoats weren't really that unique, they are very iconic and I think really are the best, most recognizable British UU you could have.

And about moving spawn dates, remember that that would require a lot of rebalancing, especially for civs as important as England and Russia.

Nein, don't mess with GB please

Those are good points. You're right that that would be too many English cities, so less would be good. However, my idea is that you wouldn't start founding a lot of them until you have economics, constitution and probably steam power. Also, I believe Leoreth is planning to replace the silly tech increase after 8 cities rule with increased maintenance in foreign areas, which I think is a really good idea and would really help big civs like England and Russia keep up in tech. You're right about the spawn dates and those are probably the least important. I just think it would be nice for historical reasons, but I certainly don't want to add too much to Leoreth's already enormous work load

SheaferDaDawg said:

Nein, don't mess with GB please

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I like playing as England too. The redcoat, UP, and spawn date could stay the same if it's too much trouble, those are the least of my worries. It's just that I don't like the goals and starting situation. You don't have to spend any time fighting the Scots, Irish, and Welsh, whereas IRL the English spent centuries doing just that. For the colonization, The English didn't even know about Australia in 1730 and they had only a few trading ports in India and West Africa. And as I said earlier, in my view the current tech goal essentially means be the first to discover Physics or Steel, and Mass Media and those techs hardly make any sense for Britain.

8 cities in North America (which gives you more incentive to fight American Revolution), 5 cities in South America, Central America and Caribbean, 4 or 5 cities in Africa, 10 cities in Asia and 10 cities in Australia/Oceania

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So, 37 cities, not including London? Yeah, no. Keep in mind, there's a stability penalty for owning more than 10 cities. This is far too much.

But removing Scotland from their core and pushing the UHV back are good ideas.

I don't have much of a beef with the first UHV so much as I do with the second. It's boring and difficult, and requires going to war with far too many countries, and producing far too many naval units. That should be looked over, not the first. If Leoreth does anything to the first, I would recommend pushing the date back, as you suggested.

giant49er said:

And as I said earlier, in my view the current tech goal essentially means be the first to discover Physics or Steel, and Mass Media and those techs hardly make any sense for Britain.

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Isaac Newton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

Sheffield Crucible Steel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible_steel#English_crucible_steel

The BBC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC

Now there's an idea!

Instead of the naval goal, we could have a great person goal!

Generate 12 Great People before 1900AD.

That's interesting and different!

I'm glad someone agrees with me on something. Looking back, I see that 37 cities would be too many, I just thought that you could fit quite a few decent cities into Australia in addition to Wellington, Port Moresby, and Hobart and that you could either settle a lot of crappy cities in Canada or you could fight America to retain control of the eastern US. I also don't like the 2nd goal, I just can't think of anything to replace it. I also want to know what you guys think of my Russia suggestions?

Yeah, I really like that GP idea, but I think he's referring to Britain's discoveries in Physics, Steel, and Mass Media. I know Britain contributed to those advancements, but I think that the techs I suggested are more unique to Britain

I'm not really convinced about the merits of the first half of your England proposal - how big of a stack would you give England at the start then? Big enough to conquer Edinburgh from spawn? If no, the AI may turtle in London and screw the historical accuracy up pretty bad. If yes, what have we achieved then? Scotland and Ireland aren't really supposed to be British that early, true, but I see it as one of many abstractions that are an inevitable part of this mod. Scandinavia being united, France controlling all of present-day France from its spawn... list is basicly endless.

That, and a Viking game would be extremely weird, with all of England being empty for 4-500 years after your spawn - and being able to capture Edinburgh, that won't later flip to the English, would screw up Britain completely. Same goes for France and possibly other Euros, who'd then be able to handicap a major colonial contender big-time.

I agree about the English spawn date change. The down side is that it could make the Viking game a lot easier and more boring

So I think that the goal should be control 8 cities in North America (which gives you more incentive to fight American Revolution), 5 cities in South America, Central America and Caribbean, 4 or 5 cities in Africa, 10 cities in Asia and 10 cities in Australia/Oceania.

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Just curious. How much have you played this game? Or any RFC modmod, for that matter?

Also replace the industrial and modern era goal with be the first to discover constitution, economics, steam power and industrialism(maybe).

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I see very little difference there. Just another way of saying "be the tech leader during this period of time".

I'm not sure about the ships goal. I can never get it done on time and I don't find it to be very fun, but I can't think of anything to replace it.

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I dislike it as well. Mainly because it punishes players who tech Combustion early. IMO it should be rewarded, not punished.

I'd still like a "Having a more powerful navy than the rest of the world combined" goal.

-I don't think that redcoats are very good as a unique unit. They are certainly powerful, but they really weren't that different from other European riflemen, hence, not very unique.

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It fires 3 times as fast as its Austrian counterpart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_during_the_Napoleonic_Wars#Tactics

It is as unique as UUs get in this game. Certainly much better than Punjabi Worker, Chang Suek, Ballista Elephant, or Askari, among others. Not every civ can have an iconic UU like the Roman Legion.

-The UP is good, but it should probably give stability for colonies and cities on other continents in addition to lowered maintenance.

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Equivalent to enlarging the English Stability Map. Which I support.

I think the Russian spawn date should be pushed back as well to 1283

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I think Leoreth rejected similar proposals before. But it would make Russia somewhat more challenging and interesting to play, since you would not be able to rush early Catholic Wonders (esp. Notre Dame).

the first UHV should make you go to Transoxiana (I don't think I spelled that right), Mongolia, and Manchuria. This would be more fun, challenging, and historically realistic, but if it is this, the date should probably be set later.

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Yeah, all this will do is make the Human player ignore Siberia completely. No thanks.

And it would require drastic changes to the Stability Map around Mongolia. Mongolia has a ridiculously large Core right now.

The second UHV is good too, but I think good additions to it would be to ensure that all your cities have power by 1930/1940 and to build Lubyanka.

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I like the all power goal. It represents Soviet rapid industrialization nicely.

I prefer to encourage Lubyanka (and State Property) indirectly by tweaking the Russian UB instead. I've changed it to +15% but 2 free Scientists.

Finally I'll admit that I don't like the last goal very much because (no offense) I find it hard and kinda boring. A better goal IMO would be ensure that 50% or so of the world lives under communism, as this encourages multiple strategies, such as conquest, espionage and diplomacy.

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Agreed 100%. The 5 Communist Brothers goal is the worst UHV in DoC by far IMO. IRL the USSR was never "Friendly" with any of its Communist "Brothers", nor did it attempt or even pretend to be.

Socialism in One Country, hello?

-I got this idea from iOnlySignIn, which is to make Cossacks available earlier (maybe Replaceable Parts instead of Rifling) and maybe have 1 extra strength, but no bonus against mounted units.

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I've tested this extensively and the best (most realistic and balanced) solution is this:

- Tech Requirement is HBR, Military Tradition, Printing Press (instead of Rifling).

- Strength is kept at 15.

- +25% vs. Mounted units instead of +50%. You need this against Keshiks.

- Immunity to First Strikes.

Everything else is unchanged.

Locutus_Morti said:

Now there's an idea!

Instead of the naval goal, we could have a great person goal!

Generate 12 Great People before 1900AD.

That's interesting and different!

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I like that option! Definitely better than the naval goal which essentially boils down to spam Frigates and Privateers and DOW on nations at random when you find a ship lying around. It also expands the scope of the game, as you can decide what GPs you want to generate.

Disagree with moving the start date - whilst William the Conqueror did indeed arrive in 1066, England was already a recognised country at that time, with cities and infrastructure. The start date for a mod of this size works on the overall civ, not the ruler - we don't have China starting in 1947 as that's when Mao took over the country. A mod with a smaller scale, like RFC Europe has the scope to show both Kievan Rus and Muscovy.

I also agree that the colonisation goal could do with a change, as 1730AD is too soon and you end up just rushing to found / abandon cities rather than actually develop cities. Personally I would set it to 1775, and increase the number of cities in Africa to 6 to reflect that Africa was one of Britain's largest colonial possessions in terms of the population and cities under control (Canada and Australia being largely empty). I can't see an argument for expanding the number of cities in North America and Australia because, as you note, it would just be founding boring unproductive cities, and also Britain's initial efforts to colonise these nations were largely limited to the east coast of both and the more fertile areas.

As for the tech goals, they don't refer to Britain discovering specific technologies (even tho' Newton developed classical physics and Britons invented / developed the television, telephone, internet, crystal radio and microphone). Instead they refer to the Industrial Revolution which is indelibly associated with GB. The modern era is added on just to increase the challenge of the UHV, and also reflect the inventions discussed above. It wouldn't be historical Britain without being the first nation to industrialise.

For Russia, same argument - the Rus as a people date back to Rurik in the 800s. There were there fighting the Mongols and the rest of Europe way before the founding of Moscow and the modern nation. AI Mongols also already get stacks to fight Russia, so that simulates the Mongol invasion.

I don't think there's much wrong with the first two Russian UHVs at the moment to be honest. But I would prefer a change to the third, as it currently can only really be done through peace vassalisation, which is fairly tedious and based on how well you can manipulate the game engine. Having open borders with a larger number of communist civs, or just communist vassals would probably be more viable and more realistic imo.

Locutus_Morti said:

Now there's an idea!

Instead of the naval goal, we could have a great person goal!

Generate 12 Great People before 1900AD.

That's interesting and different!

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Different from what?

The last thing we need is yet another civ who's encouraged to abuse City States. There are already Italy, Poland, Mughals, Indonesia, Khmer, Japan, Tamils, Greece, and India (Moors and HRE as well, but City States is not essential for them, merely highly advantageous) who have UHVs/UPs designed specifically for exactly that.

Cosmos1985 said:

I'm not really convinced about the merits of the first half of your England proposal - how big of a stack would you give England at the start then? Big enough to conquer Edinburgh from spawn? If no, the AI may turtle in London and screw the historical accuracy up pretty bad. If yes, what have we achieved then? Scotland and Ireland aren't really supposed to be British that early, true, but I see it as one of many abstractions that are an inevitable part of this mod. Scandinavia being united, France controlling all of present-day France from its spawn... list is basicly endless.

That, and a Viking game would be extremely weird, with all of England being empty for 4-500 years after your spawn - and being able to capture Edinburgh, that won't later flip to the English, would screw up Britain completely. Same goes for France and possibly other Euros, who'd then be able to handicap a major colonial contender big-time.

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Those are all good points as well. My idea was that Dublin would be pretty easy to capture with the starting troops and Edinburgh would be pretty hard. Of course there are some problems with this, such as the English AI having a hard time launching an amphibious invasion, but with Edinburgh, I'm sure the AI would take it pretty quickly, as the AI always gobbles up as many independent cities as it can. Also it wouldn't be unrealistic for Edinburgh to last long, it did last until the early 1700s after all.

Just curious. How much have you played this game? Or any RFC modmod, for that matter?




I see very little difference there. Just another way of saying "be the tech leader during this period of time".


I dislike it as well. Mainly because it punishes players who tech Combustion early. IMO it should be rewarded, not punished.

I'd still like a "Having a more powerful navy than the rest of the world combined" goal.


It fires 3 times as fast as its Austrian counterpart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_during_the_Napoleonic_Wars#Tactics

It is as unique as UUs get in this game. Certainly much better than Punjabi Worker, Chang Suek, Ballista Elephant, or Askari, among others. Not every civ can have an iconic UU like the Roman Legion.


Equivalent to enlarging the English Stability Map. Which I support.


I think Leoreth rejected similar proposals before. But it would make Russia somewhat more challenging and interesting to play, since you would not be able to rush early Catholic Wonders (esp. Notre Dame).


Yeah, all this will do is make the Human player ignore Siberia completely. No thanks.

And it would require drastic changes to the Stability Map around Mongolia. Mongolia has a ridiculously large Core right now.


I like the all power goal. It represents Soviet rapid industrialization nicely.

I prefer to encourage Lubyanka (and State Property) indirectly by tweaking the Russian UB instead. I've changed it to +15% but 2 free Scientists.


Agreed 100%. The 5 Communist Brothers goal is the worst UHV in DoC by far IMO. IRL the USSR was never "Friendly" with any of its Communist "Brothers", nor did it attempt or even pretend to be.

Socialism in One Country, hello?


I've tested this extensively and the best (most realistic and balanced) solution is this:

- Tech Requirement is HBR, Military Tradition, Printing Press (instead of Rifling).

- Strength is kept at 15.

- +25% vs. Mounted units instead of +50%. You need this against Keshiks.

- Immunity to First Strikes.

Everything else is unchanged.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE/]Just curious. How much have you played this game? Or any RFC modmod, for that matter?

I see very little difference there. Just another way of saying "be the tech leader during this period of time".

Yeah, all this will do is make the Human player ignore Siberia completely. No thanks.

And it would require drastic changes to the Stability Map around Mongolia. Mongolia has a ridiculously large Core right now.

I like the all power goal. It represents Soviet rapid industrialization nicely.

Agreed 100%. The 5 Communist Brothers goal is the worst UHV in DoC by far IMO. IRL the USSR was never "Friendly" with any of its Communist "Brothers", nor did it attempt or even pretend to be.

Socialism in One Country, hello?


I've tested this extensively and the best (most realistic and balanced) solution is this:

- Tech Requirement is HBR, Military Tradition, Printing Press (instead of Rifling).

- Strength is kept at 15.

- +25% vs. Mounted units instead of +50%. You need this against Keshiks.

- Immunity to First Strikes.

Everything else is unchanged.[/QUOTE]


I already said that 37 cities is too much. You don't need to be mean.

In regards to the other stuff, the current tech goal in my eyes simply means be the first to discover Physics and Mass Media, which doesn't seem right at all for England.

I meant some Transxonian (again spelled wrong), Mongolian, and Manchurian cities in addition to Siberian cities, preferably with more balanced numbers and at a later date. I also don't have any problem with changing the strange Mongolian core.

I'm glad you like my other Russian ideas And those Cossack changes sound good.

Also, does anyone know how to quote multiple people in your reply. I'm suffering over here.

I'm really not sure what happened with those two posts.

iOnlySignIn said:

Different from what?

The last thing we need is yet another civ who's encouraged to abuse City States. There are already Italy, Poland, Mughals, Indonesia, Khmer, Japan, Tamils, Greece, and India (Moors and HRE as well, but City States is not essential for them, merely highly advantageous) who have UHVs/UPs designed specifically for exactly that.

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Pardon my ignorance, but how does Greece need City States?

Click "multi" for each post you want to quote (excluding the last one), then "quote" on the last one to get you to typing up your message.

Why don't you think teching towards Physics and Mass Media (which isn't mandatory) is good for Britain, given that (as stated earlier) they are British inventions? Just wondering, really.

giant49er said:

I already said that 37 cities is too much. You don't need to be mean.

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Sorry. I only read the OP when I posted that. Anyway, 37 cities makes it hard for people to take the rest of your suggestions (which are mostly good, IMO) seriously. So you may want to modify the OP there. Just a suggestion.

In regards to the other stuff, the current tech goal in my eyes simply means be the first to discover Physics and Mass Media, which doesn't seem right at all for England.

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To me it seems completely realistic (like sebzilla said, Isaac Newton, BBC, etc.). Steel is even more realistic since it's what the Industrial Revolution is about, mostly. And it helps with the Navy UHV.

I meant some Transxonian (again spelled wrong), Mongolian, and Manchurian cities in addition to Siberian cities, preferably with more balanced numbers and at a later date. I also don't have any problem with changing the strange Mongolian core.

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Transoxiana already has some very valuable Calendar luxuries that would encourage any Russian player to expand there. Mongolia if their ridiculous Stability Map is fixed is also valuable because of the Iron + Coal + Fur + Sheep which you can cover with just 1 city (Irkutsk).

Both Irkutsk and most of Manchuria (such as Vladivostok) are already included in the "Siberia" area of the current Russian UHV iirc.

Also, does anyone know how to quote multiple people in your reply. I'm suffering over here.

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You use [/QUOTE] and

. Switch them (

first) and put what you want to quote in the middle.

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