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Old Jul 13, 2013, 08:39 AM   #1
tommynt
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Poland strategy guide

Conditions:
This guide is based ongame experience on Standard map size, standard speed, pangea map and deity difficulty. BUT it works for every setting, espacially u dont need the additional gold you can possibly get from deity, all what u need is room for 4 cities, so maybe its not perfect for a achi map.

Idea: Make best use out of Poland special ability to get overal 7 free social policies and create very fast a ECONOMICAL, CULTURAL AND SCIENCE SUPERPOWER, which allows you to go for every victory condition you want later on with having a strong flourishing empire backing your science, diplo or culture win. I tried play this approach with france in G+K but with Poland it works just so much better:

Basicllay u want mix Tradition and Liberty early on to get the best out of each tree just at the point when u can make best use out if its stuff
You will have 4 BIG cities in like no time!!!
Later on you go usually right into Rationalism but u can mix it up also with aestetics if u really want this culture win.

BO: scout scout scout (shrine if no pantheon without) Monument worker granny caravan library (2x settler when colletive rule kicks in (usually when discovering Philo for Classical age) Oracle (possibly Pyras in between if not built yet) NC. When having enough gold buy another worker.
Obviously focus on working lux tiles and selling those lux

With these scouts you just want find all these ruins around, espacially you r looking for the cultre and the pop ones, also meeting 2 religios CS gives u free pantheon - try go really all round map with your 3 scouts and the warrior - if u r afraid to be pillaged get a 4th scout once your worker is out.
You can also steal a worker from either ONE (dont do multiple dows) civ or one CS - it wont ruin your relations long term, just make peace later.

Sp order:
Traditon starter --> 3x Liberty to colective rule --> +15% wonder bonus (should come about when u start oracle --> rest of tradition --> liberty till GA --> rationalism
Right when collective rule kicked in build 2 more settlers, this strategy is based around 4! cities. When u get these additional cities up you might get into happynes problems as u should have sold all your other lux before, really look out to do barb quests with your early units which might be archers now and get few CS alies ( this is around turn 35-45)
Build order in new cities: Monument --> library (buy them if u got enough gold from selling your lux) --> caravan --> worker --> granny

Get these monuments up before taking legalism, time legalism to get after all 4 monument are up and u reasearched Poetry, u might get oligarchy before legalism aswell and then pick legalism with oracle

Tech order: Pottery, animal, mining, Philo, Drama, (possible constrution for coloseum and pyras) Theocracy (allows u get another free sp which should be tradition finisher and a possible hagia --> --> education

Religion: Religion isnt very important for this strategy, but obviously it helps, if your land dont support some special pantheon (like u r not on desert or dont have 5 gold tiles) get the +10% growth. Hagia to get a religion and then spread with 200 faith missionar right d be great, but dont prio it over Oracle and NC.
You ll want prio eith +15% groth or + food from temples and shrines otherwise +production for follower is nice too and obviously faster spreading if u can get another prophet later

City Placement: you want as many lux tiles as possible in 3 ring range - Place cities like 7 tiles appart you dont want to much city overlapping but u dont want have em spread all around map either. Your cities will all be big, so have lot of good tiles for them!
With all this culture from Liberty, Munument and Amphitheatres u ll have up quickly your baorders do expand pretty fast.

Buildings: After you got these settlers out your cap will want to be concentrating on key wonders: Oracle, NC, hagia, Pyras, sistine, CI (if not deity), PT - but wage carefuly if you can get them before starting!

After you got Monument and libraries up in other ciites look out for caravans, the caravan booster, stables and possibly units (but u ll usually want play peaceful) Make sure to have enough workers, Pyras at some point d help this matter but its not early in your tech tree so u ll not get them if a ai wants them.
Also obviously look out for possible natural wonders - you could really use a faith one

Another thing worth mentioning:
With ignoring the lower tech tree for very long (maybe even untill ren age) all your trade routes will generate lot of +bakkers as ais will usually have those techs. I had 2 +8 bakker routes for very long making teching those key techs even faster

tbc

The screenshot attached is at turn 156, I just reached modern age with all tradition, liberty and Rati tree filled.
I lead deity stats without conquering anything with both 200+ production and 200+ food.
I m down to +76 gold from +180 as I just did borrow 3000 gold for factories (which was unneeded as there still is this Order idiology giving +50% production)
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Last edited by tommynt; Jul 13, 2013 at 11:20 AM.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 09:14 AM   #2
budweiser
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That's Diety and for the most part the AI still haven't made many more cities yet?
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 09:34 AM   #3
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well deity is the new emperor, not my fault.

Hope they introduce a Sid and Tommynt difficulty ..
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 09:39 AM   #4
Sequm
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Haha, they should make a mod that lets you give the AI additional bonuses

But nice guide
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 10:14 AM   #5
Martin Alvito
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That's interesting, as I've also been messing around with Poland and the Oracle. However, I've been going into Patronage for Consulates rather than continuing in Liberty post-CR. On a Pangaea, it does wonders for and . I take it that your motivation to stay in Liberty is picking up the finisher later on?

I'm not clear on why you'd go Pottery first if you aren't immediately going to build the Shrine or Granary. Why not go AH first and hope for some horses?
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 10:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
I'm not clear on why you'd go Pottery first if you aren't immediately going to build the Shrine or Granary. Why not go AH first and hope for some horses?
Well if you find only 1 religious CS early u need a shrine asap to savly get a pantheon.
And with tradition starter baorder should expand fast to useful tiles, there should be enough useful ones even without horses (which we agree to still be teched fast)

Quote:
However, I've been going into Patronage for Consulates rather than continuing in Liberty post-CR. On a Pangaea, it does wonders for and . I take it that your motivation to stay in Liberty is picking up the finisher later on?
Well the GA (boosting culture a bit) and reduced SP costs give like 1-2 other "free" sp later on. So you get a worker and a GA for no costs, definatly worth it!
And yes the option to have a free guy at game end or whenever u need him.

All those other trees dont look too apealing to me, The GA and filling rati tree faster defintly help more
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 10:57 AM   #7
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Gotta love Poland. I've been experimenting with it too, but in slightly different way. Full liberty, consulates, full commerce, full rationalism and the killing spree goes on! With Oracle, protectionism can come around as early as turn 130. Liberty finisher for early NC, while hammering army and other useful stuff. Tech: Construction, Philosophy, Machinery, Education, Dynamite.

You strategy is interesting, as it can really kick start an empire, provided you can get away with not building CB/XB early.

Is it just me, or did standard sized maps become smaller? Looking at your screenshot, there's like space for 4 - 5 cities for each civ. I roll similar maps..
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 11:14 AM   #8
tommynt
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well this guide is for providing multiple huge cities and playing peaceful.

If you want go war another sp and bo might be better, but bnw really isnt made for war - why go war when the game is built around playing peaceful?
But this strong eco makes really everything possible, obviously I could go for an arty or bomber attack now aswell
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 11:22 AM   #9
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Well done sir!

About BO...2 or 3 scouts start without a culture ruin can be painful a bit

Never tried deity yet. Workers should arrive very soon as you don't want to miss the train. Hence the 2-3 scouts start.

At which date did you reach Education and Scientific Theory? Did you spend any gs or anything else for free?

I like Poland too
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 11:23 AM   #10
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Poland is great but I wouldn't waste points in Liberty.
Liberty is just a tree for those times you get such a bad map that you need to waste SP to get your empire going - all other trees provide much higher GPT/BPT/CPT/tourism so it's really not worth it unless you're desperate. That's my take on it.

I'd rather try Exploration if anything, the finisher sounds rewarding.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 11:47 AM   #11
Martin Alvito
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The idea with Liberty is that you save turns by kick-starting your empire. Realize that you always give up the most productive turns when you delay early expansion, assuming that you can stay ahead of the problem.

If you're planning to stay out of Liberty altogether, you might as well be playing a straight Tradition opener with another civ. The first two bonus policies for Poland are inconveniently timed and have to go somewhere, and the reality is that in general the trees between Liberty and Rationalism aren't very good. It rather obviously follows that you want to run down the left side of Liberty to get the empire up and running.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 12:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommynt View Post
well deity is the new emperor, not my fault.

Hope they introduce a Sid and Tommynt difficulty ..
Or the budweiser difficulty which includes multiple adult beverages.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 12:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
The idea with Liberty is that you save turns by kick-starting your empire. Realize that you always give up the most productive turns when you delay early expansion, assuming that you can stay ahead of the problem.

If you're planning to stay out of Liberty altogether, you might as well be playing a straight Tradition opener with another civ. The first two bonus policies for Poland are inconveniently timed and have to go somewhere, and the reality is that in general the trees between Liberty and Rationalism aren't very good. It rather obviously follows that you want to run down the left side of Liberty to get the empire up and running.
They are still far better than liberty in that they give you much, much higher returns of culture, gold, smiles, tourism, science, etc.
All Liberty really does is giving you a settler/worker which isn't really needed once you get a good strat down, even in BNW - and it's not remotely comparable to the long-term benefits that other policies give you.

Just stating how it is from a purely mathematical perspective, then everyone is free to choose their favourite course
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 12:27 PM   #14
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It's true. Liberty opening is for when the nearest AI cap is too far to capture and you have to make your own cities. When you take Liberty, you never have to waste turns make settlers in the cap. NEVER. City 2 makes them.

You turn on the Liberty burner when ever you are in a position to expand. It isn't just for the beginning.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 01:04 PM   #15
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assuming no lump sum deals (=lucky early DoFs) happen, liberty gives you a little less than 3 settlers for the equivalent of one settler when going tradition

G&K tradition was strong because you could get the same amount of settlers as a liberty player in almost the same time. as of current BNW, i find it very hard to skip collective rule.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 01:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkf View Post
assuming no lump sum deals (=lucky early DoFs) happen, liberty gives you a little less than 3 settlers for the equivalent of one settler when going tradition

G&K tradition was strong because you could get the same amount of settlers as a liberty player in almost the same time. as of current BNW, i find it very hard to skip collective rule.
tommy did both Trad and Lib so it doesnt represent what can happen Liberty alone. Both of them is particulary strong.

Really depends of map. If you don't have traders the Trad tree can be more difficult to start. A 2 or 3 scouts start is incompatible if you go Liberty first. You need a lot of cs and ruins to make this kind of BO appealing(starting with Trad) and generate enough gold and maybe hit a culture ruin to run it faster and to counter Liberty's gimmies.

I agree that the GPT/BPT rate is higher with Trad but only if you expand fast enough in the beginning.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 01:48 PM   #17
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tommy did both Trad and Lib so it doesnt represent what can happen Liberty alone. Both of them is particulary strong.

Really depends of map. If you don't have traders the Trad tree can be more difficult to start. A 2 or 3 scouts start is incompatible if you go Liberty first. You need a lot of cs and ruins to make this kind of BO appealing(starting with Trad) and generate enough gold and maybe hit a culture ruin to run it faster and to counter Liberty's gimmies.

I agree that the GPT/BPT rate is higher with Trad but only if you expand fast enough in the beginning.
My post wasnt directed at the entire tree. Just feel like the free settler is much stronger now. And more reliable than early gold luck.

What has always been an issue with a lot of early scouts is the culture ruin, yes. I think it's an essential ruin to get for both trees and thus a luck factor you cant avoid. It does hurt you more to miss it when going Liberty so I usually get monument after first (sometimes 2nd) scout when I dont hit one. When I hit one early though it makes sense to combine Trad opener with Liberty - Collective Rule. You will have it 2 turns later than when only going Lib and Trad opener benefits outweigh increasing policy costs when there are some tiles your cap needs to grab.

Obviously a 4 city full tradition build would still provide the most benefits after finisher, but where to get the gold?
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 01:51 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Falconiano View Post
Just stating how it is from a purely mathematical perspective, then everyone is free to choose their favourite course
Prove it, then. I can read a mathematical proof. Or you can post a save demonstrating superior results to tommy's, which will at a minimum qualify as an existence proof that your strategy is better under certain condidtions.

Long story short, my competing claim is this: although you may get a numerically greater amount of returns by selecting policies from a later tree, timing matters. The hidden benefit to policies which result in earlier expansion is the additional growth and infrastructure development resulting from settling earlier, which means that the opportunity cost of delaying settlement is always the most recent (and thus productive) turns for that city.

As others have been pointing out, one of the key results of reducing the possibility for lump sum trades is the increased difficulty in getting Settlers out there. That increases the opportunity cost for selecting a set of policies that does not include early Collective Rule.

That doesn't prove that we should take Liberty 100% of the time (we almost certainly shouldn't, which is a good thing), but my empirical results seem to be matching up with tommy's when it comes to Poland. We're going for Aqueducts regardless, so the best use of the free early policies is accelerating settlement via Collective Rule. After that, we seem to be thinking along the same lines: get even more policies via buffs.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 01:53 PM   #19
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well deity is the new emperor, not my fault.
Got to agree with you here. The good news is that I am having fun on Deity again after finding it to be way too tedious in G&K. The bad news is that even scrubs like me are playing Deity and find lower difficulties to be boring now.

Nice strategy by the way. I have also been finding a combo of Tradition and Liberty to work well. I rarely would have done this in G&K. Even when only going for 4 cities, Liberty has really nice bonuses like the fast settlers and faster tile improvements (without Citizenship it seems to take workers forever to improve tiles). The other top line social policies don't seem that useful now (or only in certain conditions). Bottom line policies are quite good though for most every game (Commerce and Rationalism in particular) which means focusing a bit on culture is important to pick up everything you want.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 02:33 PM   #20
srvs
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Mind posting the savegame? Would like to learn from it. My game is not in German though, is that a problem?
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