Natives with Guns

Hydromancerx

Hydromancerx

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One thing that bugged me in civ is if you get too far ahead, then you are having guns attacking spearmen. While this has happened in history even the most primitive civ eventually get their hands on more advanced weapons even if they cannot produce them themselves.

Perhaps we should have a set of units that get say guns before they know how to make guns. Getting it either through trade from a more advanced civ or through say the blackmarket.

This would even out a run away leader since he would not be fighting primitive civs anymore.
 
I like this! So there would be (using the guns example) Firearms units that do NOT require the firearms tech, but rather the guns resource. They would not be quite the same as proper ones, but would be quite a step up from "Javeliner"
 
How would you acquire such a resource when at war? Is there a black market I haven't seen yet, or is this something that can be done by spies?

A much more complex, script-requiring way could be allowing more advanced units to produce a "settled" resource (similar to kill bird, receive tile-based poultry resource) that then can be upgraded, and will be used up. But that's... convoluted.
 
I submit that Guns are basically a promo that your unit eg. Dog Soldier can get. I think it's fair to say that Apache braves with guns remained Apache braves (probably Dog Soldiers in game terms) and never became Riflemen. Surprisingly similar to bronze/iron/mithril weapons in FFH...

And just to be clear, the promo is enabled by the resource (Firearms or whatever you call it), bypassing the need for the tech.

This will however beg the question of why you can't build mounted units except where [the mount animal in question] is a vicinity resource.

Then for the black market (great idea btw), I'm not familiar enough with WLBO to comment on that, but I do know RFC has an independent market in (mercenary) units, so I'm wondering if a similar mechanism for a resource market could be utilized. It's a great idea to make it dependent on a building though...:goodjob:
 
Yudishtira said:
I'm not familiar enough with WLBO to comment on that
Click to expand...

This should explain thingd a little ...

ooggbboo said:


I've updated this mod to be compatible with the 3.19 patch, with the download available here. In addition, I've added features according to a traditional formula: what new horrors would I like to inflict or see inflicted over the course of a solo game.

If you are new to the mod, it consists of heavy code modifications in addition to some new units/screens etc. all designed to give the game a more robust, faintly darker feel. The primary additions are terrorism, black ops and shadow diplomacy (think Iran Contra, Gulf of Tonkin, etc.). The game also introduces hostages, work camps, native communities (the indigenous people most growing civilizations need to deal with), AI modifications and a few other changes in this vein.

Specifically:

* Terrorist Organizations are introduced into the game, which may grow and spread within civilizations. Terrorism becomes a continuing problem, and civilizations may opt to become terrorist states.

* Coalitions. You may form coalitions with other civs to make a concerted military or blackops attack on more powerful civilizations. By the same token, smaller civilizations may gang up on you if you grow too strong too fast.

* Black Ops are added; civilizations may take special military operations against various civilizations. Based on my e-mails, a fan favorite.

* Internal Security options, which may be used to manage a civilization's internal affairs.

* Hostages, which may be taken when attacking a city or pillaging certain improvements. Hostages can be publicly executed (driving up war weariness in the target civ), sold back or put to work in work camps.

* Indigenous People in a civilization, who may be exploited and eventually radicalized into terrorist groups. If treated well, they can benefit a civilization through random events. If treated badly, they will radicalize into terrorists.

* Respect, in addition to like and dislike, as an element of civilization relationships.

* A handful of new units (such as the Diplomat, with new, unique abilities), buildings, technologies and terrain modifications.

* New National Project: Religious School System. Raises the terrorism level in all other civilizations.

I've gotten plenty of positive feedback for the first version of this mod (thanks) and incorporated some suggestions that people have made into this version. Feel free to suggest further changes that you think are merited.
Click to expand...
 
Yudishtira said:
This will however beg the question of why you can't build mounted units except where [the mount animal in question] is a vicinity resource.
Click to expand...

Was not possible before auto build, should be possible now but it will require some work 1-4 days of concentrated effort in designing, building and testing, since it is complex.

One of the things I wanted with the megafauna wonders was that if you built one then all your units would be of that type, but there are not enough suitable graphics for the units.

IE
  • if you built the Mammoth Trainer you would loose access to all elephant buildings and units and could only build mammoth units in any city. The elephant resource would be treated as if it was a mammoth resource for you only.
  • If you built the Zebra Trainer you would loose access to all horse units and buildings.
  • If you built the Big Cat Trainer (work in progress) you could not build dog units.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
IE
  • if you built the Mammoth Trainer you would loose access to all elephant buildings and units and could only build mammoth units in any city. The elephant resource would be treated as if it was a mammoth resource for you only.
  • If you built the Zebra Trainer you would loose access to all horse units and buildings.
  • If you built the Big Cat Trainer (work in progress) you could not build dog units.
Click to expand...

I could see that up to a certain era??
 
Dissonance said:
How would you acquire such a resource when at war? Is there a black market I haven't seen yet, or is this something that can be done by spies?

A much more complex, script-requiring way could be allowing more advanced units to produce a "settled" resource (similar to kill bird, receive tile-based poultry resource) that then can be upgraded, and will be used up. But that's... convoluted.
Click to expand...

If i was at war with someone and they had a backward neighbour I would trade guns to them if they joined the war on my side. ;)
 
Maybe the tech prereqs for gun units should be lowered but the resource prereqs, aka the buildings that generate them, should be at the same point.

I agree that equipment could play a role here. But the equipment method we're working towards does go off of an assumption that primarily, a unit is largely defined by the types of weapons it employs. Therefore, if a Dog Soldier unit were to scavenge guns off of the enemy, they may well not be able to utilize them unless they then develop a skill based promo that enables them to. The mechanisms for scavenging fallen unit equipments has yet to be at all developed but its become clear it will need to be. At some point during the further development of equipment anyhow.

I can see how black markets and criminal units could work very nicely along with the merchant dynamics being planned to build to this sort of thing but it's a bit of a pyramid of various goals to reach this one. A temporary mechanism 'in the meantime' could be the only way we'd see anything along these lines for some time but could also then need to be reworked entirely thus increasing the workload once it does start getting to that point via the equipment developments.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Maybe the tech prereqs for gun units should be lowered but the resource prereqs, aka the buildings that generate them, should be at the same point.
Click to expand...

If it was done you could just remove the tech requirement to those specific resources. Because they are building produced they could not come into the game until a civ made one.

However if you don't want say cavemen having guns we could always make a "minimum tech" as you say.

Thunderbrd said:
I agree that equipment could play a role here. But the equipment method we're working towards does go off of an assumption that primarily, a unit is largely defined by the types of weapons it employs. Therefore, if a Dog Soldier unit were to scavenge guns off of the enemy, they may well not be able to utilize them unless they then develop a skill based promo that enables them to. The mechanisms for scavenging fallen unit equipments has yet to be at all developed but its become clear it will need to be. At some point during the further development of equipment anyhow.
Click to expand...

I also recall hearing about Native Americans making muskets and rifles into hatchets by attaching blades to the handle.

Also I have seen the opposite with axes on the barrel of a gun here, here and here.

And then there are of course bayonets and crazy Final Fantasy Sword Guns. Maybe Clockpunk should have a swordgun and/or axegun unit.
 
Thunderbrd said:
I agree that equipment could play a role here. But the equipment method we're working towards does go off of an assumption that primarily, a unit is largely defined by the types of weapons it employs. Therefore, if a Dog Soldier unit were to scavenge guns off of the enemy, they may well not be able to utilize them unless they then develop a skill based promo that enables them to. The mechanisms for scavenging fallen unit equipments has yet to be at all developed but its become clear it will need to be. At some point during the further development of equipment anyhow.

I can see how black markets and criminal units could work very nicely along with the merchant dynamics being planned to build to this sort of thing but it's a bit of a pyramid of various goals to reach this one. A temporary mechanism 'in the meantime' could be the only way we'd see anything along these lines for some time but could also then need to be reworked entirely thus increasing the workload once it does start getting to that point via the equipment developments.
Click to expand...

I think having scavenged "modern" (Rifleman/Cavalry) guns and ammo, having seen them used, even a Neanderthal or Homo Erectus could figure out how to use them (no slight on their smarts intended). Muskets/arquebuses and what have you are admittedly more tricky. (Horses belong in the former ie. easy to use category also btw). What may never be developed until too late (depends on a tech in game terms) is the tactics to turn a Dog Soldier into a Rifleman or Cavalry.

But the "black market" will necessarily be the main avenue for civs to get manufactured 'resources' above their tech level (in the long term). With what other mods have already done to this end, I think the implementation of a black market sounds more daunting than it will really be.
 
Yudishtira said:
But the "black market" will necessarily be the main avenue for civs to get manufactured 'resources' above their tech level (in the long term). With what other mods have already done to this end, I think the implementation of a black market sounds more daunting than it will really be.
Click to expand...

To make matters more simple, can it work similar to the Encyclopedia? For a selection of resources, receive 1 free copy when 2 (or more) other Civilizations have it. Black Market, national wonder.

EDIT: This is mostly with the AI in mind. Maybe the national wonder could activate local cheap buildings that would provide the relevant promotion, but cost gold in maintenance and go obsolete once proper tech is discovered. This sounds like something the AI would find easy to use.
 
Dissonance said:
To make matters more simple, can it work similar to the Encyclopedia? For a selection of resources, receive 1 free copy when 2 (or more) other Civilizations have it. Black Market, national wonder.

EDIT: This is mostly with the AI in mind. Maybe the national wonder could activate local cheap buildings that would provide the relevant promotion, but cost gold in maintenance and go obsolete once proper tech is discovered. This sounds like something the AI would find easy to use.
Click to expand...

I quite like this idea, but such a building should have a downside too (the obvious thing for this would be crime)
 
Koshling said:
I quite like this idea, but such a building should have a downside too (the obvious thing for this would be crime)
Click to expand...

Crime makes sense. As an option, this could also give either a science malus (because of scientific laziness) or science plus (due to access to advanced technology).

To take this further, this would be a really nice addition to Progressist personality, to gain +1:c5science: per one of those specialized markets/caches.

One concern with crime is that it could destabilize a civilization that is behind. Crime events like Mugging, Pickpocketing and Counterfeiting can really hold a civilization back.

My personal suggestion:
- No other effects for the AI (to help them catch up)
- -1:c5science: for human players
- +2:c5science: (for total of +1) for Progressist players
- +3 Crime for human players
 
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