New Espionage Victory Condition

As many of you are aware there has been an ongoing discussion here about how GOTMs should respond to the discovery of a technique in BtS, known as CtE - Culture through Espionage - to obtain notional culture victories primarily using espionage instead of traditional techniques. CtE doesn't apply in Warlords or vanilla.

Thanks to all those who contributed to that discussion.

The GOTM staff have now decided the following:

Going forward, we intend to create a new Espionage Victory Condition for BtS games of the month. In order to win this victory condition (VC), the requirements are:

1. A notional in-game cultural victory.
2. The player has carried out at least one spread culture mission in any of their winning legendary cities.

If those conditions are met, then the game will be considered an espionage victory, and not a cultural victory.

Be aware that this new VC is provisional. We may remove it at a later date if insufficient numbers of players are competing for it. We also feel there is some doubt as to whether the current game setup for this VC is sufficiently balanced to be suitable for a competition, but there is not yet enough experience in the community to make a judgement call either way. We will therefore monitor the experiences of players who attempt go for an espionage victory (and will invite feedback on this question). We are open to the possibility of modding CtE mechanics at a later date if in the light of players' experience that seems desirable.

Implementing this new VC will require a new HOF/BUFFY mod, which we understand is on its way, though we don't yet have a date for when it'll be available. Until that time, each BOTM will carry an individual announcement of how CtE will be dealt with in that game (as was done in BOTM 68). This may vary from game to game according to the discretion of the mapmaker.

We hope this decision will allow as many players as possible to compete in the GOTMs in the manner that they wish. We would also particularly encourage those players who wish to play CtE but have not competed in GOTMs recently to try for the new VC and so prove that keeping it in the competition is viable!

You may use this thread to discuss or ask for clarifications on this decision, on the understanding that (a) this thread stays on topic, (b) our decision is not going to change (unless some game-changing factor we weren't aware of turns up)

So this new VC applies to BOTM68?

LowtherCastle said:

So this new VC applies to BOTM68?

Click to expand...

No.... In the second post of the announcement tread for BOTM68, DS said:

"In this game, any tactic, including espionage, may be used to obtain culture victories."

obtain notional culture victories purely using espionage (CtE - Culture through Espionage)

Click to expand...

The new Espionage assisted Cultural Strategy requires seed Culture from a traditional source of Culture like a Great Work to be a practical strategy for a Cultural Victory. If one starts with 0 culture (culture purely from espionage), each Spread Culture mission will add 1 culture until the culture has been built up to 21-40 culture at which point each Spread Culture mission will add 2 culture, etc.

Thus, I object to the use of the phrase "purely using espionage", since any early win using the Espionage assisted Cultural Vitory Strategy will first generate a significant amount of seed culture from traditional sources before going into the Espionage phase of the game. Based on the example game by Kaitzilla in HoF Gauntlet Major 116, the ratio of Traditional Culture to Total Culture was (3 * 4000) / (3 * 25000 50000) = 16 8%. This reflects the use of a Great Work in each Cultural City as Seed Culture.

Also, a game will be considered an "Espionage Victory" if there is at least one Spread Culture mission in at least one of the three cultural. That also implies that Traditional Culture is a significant component of total Culture too.

Thus, a better name for this new Victory Condition would be:

Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory

This makes it clear that the game still recognizes it as a Cultural Victory and what makes it different from a Traditional Cultural Victory is the use of Espionage Assistance to multiply the total culture by 5% increments in the mid-game to end-game phases.

This also leaves open the possibility of Espionage Assistance of the remaining Victory Conditions:

Espionage Assisted Domination Victory
Espionage Assisted Conquest Victory
Espionage Assisted Apostolic Palace Diplomatic Victory
Espionage Assisted United Nations Diplomatic Victory
Espionage Assisted Space Colony Victory
Espionage Assisted Score Victory
Espionage Assisted Time Victory

I don't mean to imply that any of these will have the impact that Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory has. On the other hand, no one predicted the impact that Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory. I'm working on Espionage Assisted Domination Victory right now; just not sure it will have quite the same impact though.

Sun Tzu Wu

I disagree.

You object to the phrase 'purely espionage' because each legendary city needs a small amount of seed 'real' culture. This seed culture is typically 8% of what it takes to become legendary (1 bomb).

I object to the phrase 'espionage assisted' as espionage is creating 92% of the culture, that is not 'assisting'.

I would be happy to compromise and call it 'culture assisted espionage victory'

neilmeister said:

I disagree.

You object to the phrase 'purely espionage' because each legendary city needs a small amount of seed 'real' culture. This seed culture is typically 8% of what it takes to become legendary (1 bomb).

I object to the phrase 'espionage assisted' as espionage is creating 92% of the culture, that is not 'assisting'.

I would be happy to compromise and call it 'culture assisted espionage victory'

Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction on the seed culture calculation (I mixed values from Quick and Normal speed and got twice the percentage - I have corrected my previous post).

As I understand it, when the term "purely" or "pure" is used it means 100% and not any less than 100% (well maybe 99.99%).

Also, for this new BOTM Victory condition, the game awards an unqualfied Cultural Victory. We are qualifying it as Espionage Assisted. The term "Assisted" does not quantify the amount of assistance. It could be more than 92%, given a smaller seed culture amount or it could be as small as 1 culture from espionage, because that is the smallest amount of culture the Spread Culture mission provides and the definition of this new Victory Condition says only one Spread Culture mission in one of the three Culture Cities is needed to make the notional Cultural Victory an "Espionage Victory". 1 / (3 x 50000) = 0.00067%.

Thus, Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory is a more accurate name for this new Victory Condition.

At least remove the term "purely". This new Victory Condition is not purely an Espionage Victory. It can most definitely be characterized as a combination Cultural/Espionage Victory; perhaps this would be a better compromise. Even your suggested compromise of Culture Assisted Espionage Victory is better than just Espionage Victory. I can think of other ways to get an Espionage Victory without winning a notional Cultural Victory.

Sun Tzu Wu

Ivory soap!

The OP is correct.
"a technique in BtS to obtain notional culture victories purely using espionage". That is exactly what was discovered.

The 'pure' approach easily beats any previous traditional strategy. And arguably also beats any other CtE strategy (see spoiler)!
It's easier to understand if you actually play a CtE game. I love how you think you've worked out the fastest possible use of CtE already (in your head, and on paper.)

The 'purely' in my original post was intended to refer to the technique that is being used to obtain the victory, not to the % of culture that is accrued using spread culture missions.

However I've reworded to avoid any confusion.

Seems a very trivial thing to be arguing about.

No name for any victory condition is perfect. 'Espionage' has the advantage of brevity.

Why not remove all the arguments about whether its "pure" or ESP assisted and call it a nerf victory?

WastinTime said:

Spoiler :

You can easily do it with zero traditional culture (and it quite possibly makes for the earliest victory ...not that it matters, the OP is still correct either way). I hate to give away all my secret strategy, but you can just give away cities early and surround your capital with your future LCs. Then, using AI culture as a seed, create all of your legendary 150,000 culture purely with espionage.

And please don't argue "...but you're still getting 2 per turn from your Palace"

Click to expand...

I'd been thinking about this since I knew the culture spread is calculated on all existing culture on the city tile.... however I eventually thought the spies getting caught problem would not be worth it. How do you get around this?

Plus you'll spend a bit more EP initially as you won't get the full -50% culture discount, but that's minor.

kossin said:

I'd been thinking about this since I knew the culture spread is calculated on all existing culture on the city tile.... however I eventually thought the spies getting caught problem would not be worth it. How do you get around this?

Click to expand...

I don't claim to have all the answers worked out. I was just pointing out that maybe it's too soon to rule out 100% espionage and try to claim the optimal amount of traditional culture needed is known.

However, to try to answer your question....When I played the "always peace GotM" and achieved a conquest victory, that's when I got to first use a stack of spies and got the idea to use "Spread Culture" for a culture victory. (sorry, yes, I caused this whole mess.) I noticed in that game that a my stack was not getting detected as often as I expected. It certainly didn't interfere with any of my planning. I didn't do any calculations, but it felt like the odds of getting one spy caught were the same as a stack. Maybe they don't 'roll the dice' for each spy each turn. It could be just one roll per turn to see if one of your spies is caught. It needsto be studied more, but that was the feeling I got. I don't recall getting more than one spy caught per turn, but I'd have to check.

After a quick glance at this I'm just going to throw out my opinion. I think this new VC sounds silly, at least as described. Probably just adds more complexity for the staff as well.

I don't claim to have all the answers worked out. I was just pointing out that maybe it's too soon to rule out 100% espionage and try to claim the optimal amount of traditional culture needed is known.

Click to expand...

It would be silly to assume the optimized approach in any VC is known for certain, let alone in one where a technique for doing it is relatively new from the standpoint of viability.

You still need to produce enough , and initial "border pop seed culture" and you may or may not have the cities to accomplish that with your suggestion, depending on the map.

SilentWatcher said:

Why not ... call it a nerf victory?

Click to expand...

Hey, slow down there. Are you using nerf as a verb, noun, or adjective?

I find it deeply insulting of you to insinuate that people who play this VC are nerfs. I don't even know what that means, but it's offensive and you owe the entire universe an apology.

I also find it asinine of you use it as a verb and imply that the victory has less value than any other type of victory. Who are you to judge others. You owe the entire cosmos an apology.

If you're using it as an adjective, why present tense? Why not the past tense, nerfed? Once someone has finished, they won by nerfing, which means they nerfed. They didn't nerf nerfed. And their nerfing wasn't a nerf either. Do you even know what you're talking about? Do you even know standard English? You owe an apology to The All, Past, Present, and Future.

(sorry, yes, I caused this whole mess.)

Click to expand...

Kakumeika has now the reputation to cause messes.

GPT to AI's, infinite city liberations, Espionage victory....

What will be the next one? I wonder...

Tachywaxon said:

What will be the next one? I wonder...

Click to expand...

I don't know but TSR is counting on you...

SilentWatcher said:

Why not remove all the arguments about whether its "pure" or ESP assisted and call it a nerf victory?

Click to expand...

Maybe we can roll both Espionage & Religious into the one award: Fastest Nerf

Tachywaxon said:

Kakumeika has now the reputation to cause messes.

GPT to AI's, infinite city liberations, Espionage victory....

What will be the next one? I wonder...

Click to expand...

I suspect it will be something related to 'Require Complete Kills' (if the SG mapmaker doesn't chicken-out and remove the option.)

WastinTime said:

The OP is correct.
"a technique in BtS to obtain notional culture victories purely using espionage". That is exactly what was discovered.

The 'pure' approach easily beats any previous traditional strategy. And arguably also beats any other CtE strategy (see spoiler)!
It's easier to understand if you actually play a CtE game. I love how you think you've worked out the fastest possible use of CtE already (in your head, and on paper.)

Spoiler :

You can easily do it with zero traditional culture (and it quite possibly makes for the earliest victory ...not that it matters, the OP is still correct either way). I hate to give away all my secret strategy, but you can just give away cities early and surround your capital with your future LCs. Then, using AI culture as a seed, create all of your legendary 150,000 culture purely with espionage.

And please don't argue "...but you're still getting 2 per turn from your Palace"

Click to expand...

I don't pretend to know the optimal amount of seed culture. You don't seem know either. I highly doubt anyone does, given that no one has seriously pursued a "Espionage Victory" strategy until very recently (HoF Gauntlet Major 116).

I believe that the OP has conceeded that "purely espionage" is not accurate and has amended post #1 to reflect that fact.

Also, note that "Espionage Victory" is defined as any notional Cultural Victory where at least one Spread Culture Mission has been applied to at least one of the Three Cultural Cities. So a victory that minimally qualifies as an Espionage Victory will have just one Spread Culture mission in it. It is definitely not a trivial mistake to call this new Victory Condition "purely" or even "primarily" espionage fueled, although an optimal strategy would definitely require culture primarily from espionage.

Furthermore, I have already pointed out that it is possible to start with 0 culture and get 1 culture per Spread Culture mission until one has total culture of 21-40, when the culture added per mission goes up to 2.

I don't believe that one can post a game using a secret strategy to the HoF and expect it to remain a secret. That might be plausible for BOTM, but definitely not SGOTM.

It may be a mistake to allow the AI to generate the seed culture. They may be slower at generating seed culture then the Player. You will have trouble getting the Culture bonus of -50% which will make the early missions significantly more expensive. In any case it can never justify the term "purely", because even the use of one single Spread Culture mission makes a notional Cultural Victory in fact a "Espionage Victory" by the definition blessed by the GOTM staff ( See post #1).

With regard to the name "Espionage Victory", brevity is the only thing going for it. If just 1 culture comes from espionage, the notional Cultural Victory shall be considered a "Espionage Victory", even though it is 99.9993% traditional culture (normal speed game). This is consequence of how "Epionage Victory" is defined in post #1 of this thread. Note that the single Spread Culture mission can generate just 1 culture early in the game when the city has 0-20 total culture (5% of 0-20 rounded up = 1).

Sun Tzu Wu