Jungles: banana vs basic food

Thalassicus · Jul 24, 2013

Which do you prefer:

1. Harsh jungles with common bananas
2. Good jungles with rare bananas
3. Remove jungle belief, and delay jungle science
4. Other

Ahriman · Jul 24, 2013

Many powerful bananas makes a specialist economy really really easy, you only work the banana tiles and then get lots of specialists.
I don't think we want this. That makes them very strong.

It also means that once the jungles are cleared, you have a paradise, because you have lots of bonus jungle tiles *and* a bunch of regular plains.

Again, the main problem with jungles is that they're just as good for food as grasslands, but also offer science and pantheon belief bonuses.

Probably the best solution is to leave them at 2 food with rare bananas, remove the pantheon belief, and bump the science bonus to only +1, and only in the late game.

So, jungles have downsides (longer improvement construction time) but also upsides (more flexibility, small science bonus late game).

Thalassicus · Jul 24, 2013

I'm okay with any of the options, and don't have a preference.

ExpiredReign · Jul 24, 2013

Hmm. Interesting.

Jungles, as I see them, in the game are almost a hinderance to growth.
So if giving more 'Bananas' is an effort to make 'Jungle' more hospitable, then I'm all for it.

I like the military bonus jungle gives units and the fact keeping jungles fits in with the aesthetic of some civs, so anything really to keep jungles as viable alternatives to plains or grasslands is good.

In my book, all terrain features should be playable but different.

@Ahriman

I don't agree it is a problem with jungle being just as good as grasslands.
Comparable but different.

Any civ, regardless of where it starts should be able to make a viable city.
As to the success of that city. That is where the player's choices of buildings/improvements come in.

albie_123 · Jul 24, 2013

I like the first option just because it feels like there's a differentiation between usable 'tropical' areas (represented by those tasty bananas) and useless jungle.

I'd actually like the first option WITH the science delay though.

Ahriman · Jul 24, 2013

I don't agree it is a problem with jungle being just as good as grasslands.
Comparable but different.

Jungles aren't just as good, they're better.

Another thing that would help grasslands is if pastures got the same bonuses as farms (ie medieval era freshwater boost, fertilizer non-freshwater boost), and similarly for plantations. It's annoying how much better wheat are than cows or sheep.

ExpiredReign · Jul 24, 2013

@Ahriman

Is the :c5science:

and belief bonus on 'jungles' offset by the difference in quantity of those hexes, compared to grasslands or plains?

I take it they are what make 'jungles' better in your view?

Ahriman · Jul 24, 2013

Is the and belief bonus on 'jungles' offset by the difference in quantity of those hexes, compared to grasslands or plains?

I don't understand "offset". How does low quantity make something less valuable? There are no grassland or plains pantheon beliefs.

I take it they are what make 'jungles' better in your view?

Yes.

ExpiredReign · Jul 24, 2013

I took it you don't like jungles to be better. So I was trying to highlight jungles are scarcer than grasslands/plains and therefore their scarcity is reflected in the bonuses given.

Grasslands/plains are about 55% of land, jungles about 10%.

Even less under the control of one player so the bonuses collectively are quite small.

If that is not your view, then sorry. My mistake.

Delekhan · Jul 25, 2013

Hi Thal, I've been lurking in the forums for some time and absolutely love GEM, and am thrilled with the progress you're making on CEP.

I have to speak up on the jungles, though. I really enjoy founding cities near bananas, it just feels fun, and makes boring inland areas with tons of jungle much more interesting.

As far as the science bonus goes, I never rely on it, I just chop down every jungle in sight at first opportunity to clean things up and prevent invading units from having cover. Clearing jungles is a habit from Civ IV when they had health penalties, I guess.

Just thought I'd share my opinion on this, since I really do like the extra bananas

Can't wait to see CEP finished! You're doing great Thal. I especially agree with merging the Vanguards and gunpowder units. The AI is so clueless at using vanguards' abilities that they simply end up as target practice for my archers.

xInVicTuSx · Jul 25, 2013

Hmmm.

I agree with Ahriman on most points. But if we push back the science from Universities to Researchlabs then I'd be ok with leaving the two science if their food were left at two and the pantheon belief removed. As long as they don't give any production benefits when chopped down and cant create any sawmills.

I'm not a big fan of lots of bananas but it would help out the plantation belief more if there were lots since the jungle belief will probably go.

stackpointer · Jul 25, 2013

Just randomed Brazil with 3.1.8. At least I spawned at the edge of the jungle instead of inside of it. I had to take the + :c5food:

pantheon in order to make the jungle worth keeping until I get the Brazilwood camps up. It'll be a long wait until I reach machinery though.

Also, it seems like jungles can be chopped in a single turn. Is that intentional? And are we keeping farms as a jungle improvement?

Thalassicus · Jul 25, 2013

Thank you Delekhan, and it's great to see another Dallas resident. I live in a northern suburb.

@stackpointer
Jungles in the recent project version are set similar to pre-BNW (option #1). I plan on changing that if another option in the poll outweighs the old method we used. Basically the options are Gem-style, vanilla BNW, and Ahriman's idea. I might also create a compromise based on my design experience. I don't have a strong opinion on this topic, so I'm willing to do any of these suggestions. The poll will help me decide.

The capability to build swidden-style farms in jungle provides an alternative to villages, which are normally the only jungle improvement. Slightly faster jungle chopping raises the incentive to do so a little bit. I figure yields are our main deciding factor, however.

mystikx21 · Jul 25, 2013

One turn chopping is not slightly faster.

For what it is worth I sided with Ahriman's idea as jungle would still be viable with farms and villages and chopping but not awesome like with bananas and science and beliefs. I would also like to see some pasture/plantation/camp river/non river bonuses.

Thalassicus · Jul 25, 2013

The movement speed of tiles affects how fast we can improve them. This means jungles usually require 2 turns to clear, while it used to take 3 turns (a 33% reduction):

Old:
1. Move onto tile
2. chop
3. chop
4. Ready to continue

Now:
1. Move onto tile
2. chop
3. Ready to continue

I made this change because it probably takes less time to burn jungles than log a forest, burning the jungle does not return production, and requires a higher technology. It's worse in 2 ways so I made it better in 1 way.

stackpointer · Jul 25, 2013

~~I thought that forests were a three turn chop? Or was it changed in CEP? Or making jungles an one turn chop to compensate for its weaknesses?~~ Nevermind.

Jorad · Jul 25, 2013

I dislike that in the current BNW game, creating a plantation out of a banana tile can make the tile worse than before (because you lose any jungle bonuses).
That shouldn't ever happen in my opinion. Tile improvements should only improve tiles, not make them worse. I'm not sure how best to change that. Maybe make it possible to build plantations without removing the jungle?

Thalassicus · Jul 25, 2013

@Jorad
I agree. The capability to build plantations without clearing jungle was in the pre-BNW version of the project, and it should be active in Cep v3.1.8 or later.

stackpointer · Jul 25, 2013

Jorad said:
I dislike that in the current BNW game, creating a plantation out of a banana tile can make the tile worse than before (because you lose any jungle bonuses).
That shouldn't ever happen in my opinion. Tile improvements should only improve tiles, not make them worse. I'm not sure how best to change that. Maybe make it possible to build plantations without removing the jungle?

Creating plantations on bananas without chopping the jungle has already been implemented in CEP.

Ahriman · Jul 25, 2013

But of course, this just highlights how amazing banana tiles are, and how much better than (say) cows they are.

Jungles: banana vs basic food

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2 :c5food: jungles, rare bananas

Remove jungle belief and delay jungle science

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