Temple of Artemis maths

L

Lord Yanaek

Emperor
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
Messages
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So, does anyone actually know how the 10% bonus "growth" is calculated?
I've read it was a bonus to total food produced so i thought "great, will try to build it for a change"

EDIT : Got it. The tooltips are totally messed up. Bonus is really applied to the total food produced, including food from granaries (didn't test Maritime CS food). This makes ToA much better then it seems when reading the description (yes, this is old news to some players)
See post #5

I have a city that has base production of 16 food, it's size 5 so food available is 6.
If ToA gives bonus to total food, it should give me +1.6
If ToA gives me bonus to growth (available food), it should be 0.6
But i only get a 0.5 bonus :confused:

Looks like it's not that great finally.
 
No. Perfectly happy.
The only modifier i have is the 10% from ToA, nothing else.
 
When you say you only get 0.5 food with TOA, what do you mean? Do you mean you are showing 6.5, or truly just 0.5?

If you didn't have TOA, and your 5-pop city was producing base 16 food, you would expect to have 6.0 food surplus and the key tooltip line would say "6.0 (16 - 10)". With TOA, the food screen would look something like "7.6 (16 - 10)". What does that line say for you?
 
OK, i got it, the bonus is indeed applied to the total food production, but the tooltips are totally messed up :crazyeye:
And the bonus food from granaries does count in that total.
ToA_Test1.jpg

ToA_Test2.jpg
 
Here is before and after ToA taking both Liberty and Tradition openers. I just rolled up a random civ on Settler, made a worker, and then the ToA. I made sure I have 5 citizens working the same improved tiles in both examples.

Images 1 and 2 are with liberty.
Images 3 and 4 are with tradition, notice the higher base food from tradtion.

It is easy to see that the ToA works directly on the raw food from terrain before any is eaten in images 1 and 2. You have 14 food from terrain, the ToA gives 10% food. 14 * 0.10 = 1.4 for a total of 15.4 food. 5 citizens eat 10 food, so 15.4 - 10 = 5.4 which is what is displayed as the total food left over for growth.

In image 3 you can see that Landed Elite (10% growth and +2 food) acts on the food left over after the citizens eat it. 15 base - 10 pop = 5. 5 * 0.10 = .5 for a 5.5 total for growth.

In image 4 the effect of the ToA compounds with LE. The ToA is taken into account first.
15 * 0.10 = 1.5 gives a total of 16.5 food, 10 of which is eaten for 6.5 remaining, the UI rounds that 6.5 down to 6 when it displays it but it really is 6.5.
Then Landed Elite acts on the remaining food.
6.5 * 0.10 = .65
6.5 + .65 = 7.15 food left over for growth as displayed

Hope this clears up any debate

ToA_composite.png
 
The sad thing is you can't build ToA on deity, like ever. Good info though, gonna have to update my spread sheet.
 
ntr0py said:
The sad thing is you can't build ToA on deity, like ever.
Click to expand...
You can, but it's costly. You really need to focus on it : research archery first and build it ASAP. You will sacrifice religion and won't hard build your monument (if no culture ruin, you'll open trad turn 25) but then you have a chance to grab it.
ToA is most of the time built after GL and Stonehenge, often after Hanging Gardens, sometimes after Terracota Army and Petra. This is based on plenty Immortal games and some Deity (i started a number of those, even thought i didn't end them all, or ended them in the loosing team ;) )
Now, of course, just when you try to get it, you'll have an AI build it T30, yes, this can happen too :badcomp:
 
You definitely can build ToA on deity. I do it a lot on isolated/cornered starts where I expect to be able to expand later.

It is not foul proof but typically pottery->archery
scout->scout->granary->ToA
Will do it 70-80% of the time (assuming you stole some workers and didn't get a completely crippled awful start).

If you replace granary by shrine for a pantheon it makes it harder since you basically lose 1 tile reallocation.
 
Deau said:
You definitely can build ToA on deity. I do it a lot on isolated/cornered starts where I expect to be able to expand later.

It is not foul proof but typically pottery->archery
scout->scout->granary->ToA
Will do it 70-80% of the time (assuming you stole some workers and didn't get a completely crippled awful start).

If you replace granary by shrine for a pantheon it makes it harder since you basically lose 1 tile reallocation.
Click to expand...

And if you don't use exploits, there are other possibilites:
1) Tech archery -> mining and build scout -> worker -> ToA
2) Tech archery -> mining and build worker -> ToA -> buy scout for 140 gold
3) Tech archery -> mining and build monument -> scout -> ToA and wait for the free worker from Liberty.

Pottery -> shrine -> +15% for classical wonders and early aristocracy can work as well but probably not against religious civs.

Chopping riverside forests also helps a lot.
 
RealHuhn said:
And if you don't use exploits, there are other possibilites:
1) Tech archery -> mining and build scout -> worker -> ToA
2) Tech archery -> mining and build worker -> ToA -> buy scout for 140 gold
3) Tech archery -> mining and build monument -> scout -> ToA and wait for the free worker from Liberty.

Pottery -> shrine -> +15% for classical wonders and early aristocracy can work as well but probably not against religious civs.

Chopping riverside forests also helps a lot.
Click to expand...
I really doubt 2 would still work in BNW. Without a scout to get some money from CS, it will take you forever to gather 140 gold to buy a scout (unless you are sitting on tons of gems)
 
Bob Morane said:
I really doubt 2 would still work in BNW. Without a scout to get some money from CS, it will take you forever to gather 140 gold to buy a scout (unless you are sitting on tons of gems)
Click to expand...

Oh, I've done that quite a few times. It's not like your warrior can't find CSs and other civs. Don't forget to sell embassies for 1 gpt.
You can often buy a scout around the time the first barbs show up at your capital and level him up to +1 sight radius rather quickly.
Of course, 140 gold can be more important for other stuff but it's definately a decent option. And also the fastest way to get ToA.
 
RealHuhn said:
And if you don't use exploits, there are other possibilites
Click to expand...

RealHuhn: Question for you: When you wage war, can you share your tips for success without attacking a unit that belongs to another civ or CS? Seems like a very nifty trick. This is on the assumption that if you do attack units, it would be an exploit in your book.

In other news, stop polluting every thread with this hackneyed topic.
 
Blicero said:
RealHuhn: Question for you: When you wage war, can you share your tips for success without attacking a unit that belongs to another civ or CS? Seems like a very nifty trick. This is on the assumption that if you do attack units, it would be an exploit in your book.

In other news, stop polluting every thread with this hackneyed topic.
Click to expand...


This has been my exact thought for a few days now. I intentionally held from intervening in the tradition expansion thread. His predecessors were getting flamed enough by the community but I am going to take a kind stab at it.

This topic has been rehashed many, many times since vanilla. S&T forums is the particular forum for competitive players and for help to overcome the game challenges. So unless the OP has specifically mentioned what gentlemen's rule he plays with, please refrain from such comments.

If anything, you are very welcome to propose alternative solutions mentioning that they are manageable with this or that (like without warrior stealing) as in the above example. But the threat to other players' standards is completely unnecessary and quite frankly really moot. Even more so when the vast majority of the players in S&T forums play by this same set of rules (aka worker stealing is part of the game, war bribes is a strong tool to diplomacy manipulation, piety opener can be used for gigantic mid&late game hammer overflow, etc.)

Devs have had opportunities to fix both worker stealing and DoW bribes for years and there are a lot of extremely easy fixes. They are still in the game because this is not a reality immersion but a strategy game. You can chose your own gentlemen's rules and propose solutions to peoples' issues within your own gentlemen's rules but don't expect the community of players to follow your path because you've decided it was the best way to go about it.
 
Deau said:
This has been my exact thought for a few days now. I intentionally held from intervening in the tradition expansion thread. His predecessors were getting flamed enough by the community but I am going to take a kind stab at it.

This topic has been rehashed many, many times since vanilla. S&T forums is the particular forum for competitive players and for help to overcome the game challenges. So unless the OP has specifically mentioned what gentlemen's rule he plays with, please refrain from such comments.

If anything, you are very welcome to propose alternative solutions mentioning that they are manageable with this or that (like without warrior stealing) as in the above example. But the threat to other players' standards is completely unnecessary and quite frankly really moot. Even more so when the vast majority of the players in S&T forums play by this same set of rules (aka worker stealing is part of the game, war bribes is a strong tool to diplomacy manipulation, piety opener can be used for gigantic mid&late game hammer overflow, etc.)

Devs have had opportunities to fix both worker stealing and DoW bribes for years and there are a lot of extremely easy fixes. They are still in the game because this is not a reality immersion but a strategy game. You can chose your own gentlemen's rules and propose solutions to peoples' issues within your own gentlemen's rules but don't expect the community of players to follow your path because you've decided it was the best way to go about it.
Click to expand...

You know, I totally agree with you. Everyone has the right to play however he wants to. Seems like the S&T crowd has another opinion about worker stealing than many others.

Although sometimes, it can be good or interesting to shake things up with a few semi-provoking statements to really get an honest response or let people rethink some old habits. I also apologized for my choice of words which got completely overlooked.

I'll shut up about it now because quite frankly, I don't think I can convince anyone here. Same topic in general discussions often gets completely different responses though so I wouldn't say stuff like "flamed by the community". Afterall, I talked to 2-3 guys about this. :P
 
Deau said:
You definitely can build ToA on deity. I do it a lot on isolated/cornered starts where I expect to be able to expand later.

It is not foul proof but typically pottery->archery
scout->scout->granary->ToA
Will do it 70-80% of the time (assuming you stole some workers and didn't get a completely crippled awful start).

If you replace granary by shrine for a pantheon it makes it harder since you basically lose 1 tile reallocation.
Click to expand...

I do scout granary ToA. Haven't missed it yet. I also don't play Pangaea though, so the extra scout is almost never worth it for me.
 
RealHuhn said:
You know, I totally agree with you. Everyone has the right to play however he wants to. Seems like the S&T crowd has another opinion about worker stealing than many others.

Although sometimes, it can be good or interesting to shake things up with a few semi-provoking statements to really get an honest response or let people rethink some old habits. I also apologized for my choice of words which got completely overlooked.

I'll shut up about it now because quite frankly, I don't think I can convince anyone here. Same topic in general discussions often gets completely different responses though so I wouldn't say stuff like "flamed by the community". Afterall, I talked to 2-3 guys about this. :P
Click to expand...

I don't get offended much by ideology issues but as I said, it's been rehashed so much since vanilla and has really never done anything but turn good threads into troll fests which is much more detrimental to the S&T forums.

The more competitive the players, the more they care about playing within the same rule frame and, as Moriarte I believe has brought up in a different thread, it is not possible to enforce any gentlemen rules abroad. HoF is probably the best baseline setup for single player for such mean to compare between players and worker stealing/DoW bribe is allowed thus it is really a lost cause to try to change mentalities.

Realistically, most the players that would've agreed with you are those that simply enjoy their game without that comparison aspect and have, for the most part, moved or stayed on immortal. They are still lurking on and off S&T but don't bother with that ideology war.

Anyway, I'm glad to see you will give up on it. It is best for the quality of threads in S&T forums and you would probably have found it extremely exhausting. It's like a one vs all because really those that speak out the most on these forums are those that have accepted the above concept about HoF rules.
 
Hey adwcta, do you just forgo getting a Pantheon with that build? Or do you build/buy a Shrine after at some point? I'm interested in trying this out. That seems like a very strong opener. I might have to give it a go :).

Man, that seems sick actually. Especially as Shoshone my favorite civ :O. I get a free Pantheon anyways, +10% growth hoooo!
 
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