Changes to cultural control

Leoreth · Sep 9, 2013

I've recently committed a few changes to get rid of some problems with tile control.

First of all, all civs now benefit from a weaker version of the Turkish UP, which only affects the first ring around a conquered city. This should make limited expansion less painful and remove the need to kill everyone into whose territory you expand.

Then I've made two changes that should help making collapses more realistic. Previously the problem was that a complete collapse was followed by the culture of neighboring civs invading their territory, leading to (sometimes) unwanted flips and weird borders in general. The changes are:

1. Cities cannot spread culture to tiles within a foreign core, unless they are themselves in that foreign core. This prevents civs from building up an amount of culture which makes them take over the tiles as soon as their neighbor collapses.

2. Independents now benefit from the 80% rule in the core of a dead civilization. So if France collapses to independents, England still needs more than 80% culture to take away a tile in the French core from the independents there.

I haven't tested it yet, so please report back if it has any weird consequences.

Lone Wolf · Sep 9, 2013

1. Cities cannot spread culture to tiles within a foreign core, unless they are themselves in that foreign core.

Shouldn't tiles in cities with a foreign core which are in the BFC of your city still get controlled by you? Otherwise it could be quite annoying.

Leoreth · Sep 9, 2013

You have a point there. Maybe the rule should be limited to the third ring onwards (which is causing most of the problems anyway).

citis · Sep 9, 2013

Culture should spread only within traderoutes. For example India and China shouldn't be able to expand culture in the Himalayas. Egypt shouldn't be able to expand in the dessert. French can't expand influence in Germany if the borders are closed.

Assimilation: I agree that an assimilation should be done but when controlling the city. Else it will be really awkward, for example if civ A conquer a city of civ B then if civ B reconquer the city before the end of the "Viva la resistence" a part of the city population will be assimilated!!!

The second ring shouldn't include tiles of other civ's core area. For example Strassburg shouldn't be able to influence Frankfurt (but Strassburg can gain control of german iron if enough culture aquired).

Image explanation:
Yellow: uninfluenced tiles
Pink: Influenced tiles
Dark red: city
Grey: Road
Blue: river

Malchar · Sep 9, 2013

I think that there's a mod out there that uses a culture system that aims to be "more realistic". Culture is faster to spread to resources, rivers, and other "good" tiles. It's slower to spread across rivers or through mountains or deserts. You could also gain or lose culture on a particular tile if you win or lose military battles there. I think Rise of Mankind might have had this. Of course, this was for playing on random maps, so they needed it as there was no historical basis for the civs.

Before this change, capturing a city in Europe was basically worthless. The city would just get flooded with culture from its neighbors (maybe this is a good thing for game balance). However, it's also kind of unfair to limit a city's culture to the historical area only. It weakens culture as a offensive tool. I'm not sure if it's possible, but maybe you can make it so that it can still spread into foreign core, but it requires more culture than normal. Most of the time it would work the same, but it provides a reward for particularly ambitious cities. Alternatively, you could make it so that only the human player's culture can spread across borders.

billyleeback16 · Sep 9, 2013

I also noticed an unintended consequence with the recent cultural changes. When I conquer a (non-holy) city I'm no longer given the option to raze it. In my current game I'm deleting the city and putting in ruins in WB when I conquer a city. Was this an intended change? This is as of SVN 578 btw.

blizzrd · Sep 10, 2013

billyleeback16 said:
I also noticed an unintended consequence with the recent cultural changes. When I conquer a (non-holy) city I'm no longer given the option to raze it. In my current game I'm deleting the city and putting in ruins in WB when I conquer a city. Was this an intended change? This is as of SVN 578 btw.

Holy-cities have been raze-proof by the human player for a fair bit longer than the new cultural effects have been in effect.

billyleeback16 · Sep 10, 2013

I knew that about holy cities. But I think the game is treating every city like a holy city when it is conquered by the human player now.

Leoreth · Sep 10, 2013

Oh, right. I forgot about that. Remember the time when weird culture spread everywhere in the world? That was my attempt to fix this at that time.

citis · Sep 14, 2013

I like to post some ideas about cultural influence (as I like to post my ideas in every aspect of game mechanics

):
Culture should spread only in:
*Tiles connected to the city trade network.
*Tiles by tiles of strong cultrual control (culturally controled, roaded/railroaded/roman_roaded and connected to city network).

AI civs that have sparking borders problems with a neighbour will avoid or cancel open borders agreement with the neighbour to avoid cultural influence.

Effects:
Culture won't spread over mountains, dessert, lakes, oceans (before astronomy).
Culture won't spread deep in other civ's borders if they are closed. However, there is the possibility to spread in their border tiles.
Civs will have to road their borders in order to expand their cultural influence.
Egypt's control will go along the nile. The civ will have to road the river tiles in order to gain control further.
Colonies' control won't go deep in the mainland until the civ road the coast.

Leoreth · Sep 14, 2013

If I start the game as Egypt with one city, can't I control no other tile because they don't have roads? I don't have the techs to build roads or to trade along rivers. Do I have to wait 31 turns to build the first worker and maybe even longer before I have the necessary techs?

citis · Sep 14, 2013

Leoreth said:
If I start the game as Egypt with one city, can't I control no other tile because they don't have roads? I don't have the techs to build roads or to trade along rivers. Do I have to wait 31 turns to build the first worker and maybe even longer before I have the necessary techs?

Yes. In my egypt games I always build a worker at first and manage to finish three roads before I manage to aquire masonry so it is doable.

Leoreth · Sep 14, 2013

Nice. I would immediately quit this game because seriously, this is just incredibly boring.

Imperator Knoedel · Sep 16, 2013

I think one should make an exception for the BFC or at least the first ring, then I would be up for it.

citis · Sep 16, 2013

You always control the first ring. All cities are culturally controlled, roaded and conected to their trade network, so all the surrounding tiles are culturally influenced.

Mouthwash · Sep 24, 2013

There is an influence driven war mod in which the outcome of battles affects the culture on nearby tiles. Wouldn't this be a bit more realistic than the proposed solution (especially given that cultural encroachment would provoke territorial wars)?

Royal Tenenbaum · Sep 24, 2013

It's been proposed and looked into. It causes lag, this one is much simpler to the same effect.

Malchar · Sep 24, 2013

Leoreth said:
If I start the game as Egypt with one city, can't I control no other tile because they don't have roads? I don't have the techs to build roads or to trade along rivers. Do I have to wait 31 turns to build the first worker and maybe even longer before I have the necessary techs?

Everything just uses coefficients to modify the rate of culture spread. You can still gain tiles over time, it just takes a different amount of culture depending on the tile. For example, tiles with roads could be acquired with only 50% of the normal culture investment, whereas tiles with desert or mountains would take 200% of the normal culture.

The main benefit is actually aesthetics. It creates much more realistic-looking borders especially on randomly generated maps. Since the map is fixed and the resources and terrain features are already skillfully placed it might be unnecessary.

The Diocletian · Sep 25, 2013

Royal Tenenbaum said:
It's been proposed and looked into. It causes lag, this one is much simpler to the same effect.

Performance lag or processing lag?

Royal Tenenbaum · Sep 25, 2013

I'm afraid you have to tell me the difference :/

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