If you were in charge of a new CIV IV patch...

What are the top 5 underpowered CIV IV features you'd buff and the top 5 overpowered things that you'd nerf?

We're talking theoretical BAG (BTS Altered Gameplay) so you can make changes within reason but remember it's a patch not an expansion pack. Dust off your idea hat, sharpen those nerfbats! If you were writing your own patch notes what would be your top 5 nerfs and buffs?




Civ4 Beyond the Sword v3.19 p Patch for PC (the p stands for plastiqe)

BUFFS

• Lumbermills unlocked at Metal Casting instead of Workshops. Workshops available starting at Guilds and get +1 at Replaceable Parts.
• Protective trait gives +50% defense against espionage.
• The first Civ to research Military Science gets +1 xp boost to all of their units.
• Submarines available at Electricity and can target Carriers and Transports first in a stack kinda like a Ballista Elephant.

Edit:

• Serfdom gives +1 to farms, because your serfs are happy living in an anarcho-syndicalist commune.
• Each Civ now has an alternate team colour. When two Civs with similar team colours start nearby on a map, one switches to their alternate colour.

NERFS

• Gold/Gem/Silver mine output starts at 2 and grows over time while being worked like cottages.
• Slavery unhappiness that builds in the same way as Emancipation unhappiness which starts as soon as a Civ you know is in a higher Labor civic.
• Collateral damage reduced across the board, siege units go back to the CIV III style of bombing from one tile away.
• Immune to first strikes ability removed from every unit except Oromo Warrior.
• Alphabet only unlocks trading techs you self researched, tech brokering doesn't come until Printing Press.

I like all of your ideas except
- i dont know if the precious metal mine nerf is necessary
- 1h to each farm in serfdom is pretty crazy powerful, I'm not sure that would be balanced. In the early game it would be balanced with slavery since slavery is so powerful but later in the game serfdom would end up being the strongest civic by far

Yeah, the collateral damage change is needed badly. Civ4's artillery makes combat very un fun.

BUFFS
- Tribal villages give same to player and AI at all skill levels
- Archer type units do collateral damage (but not a lot)
- Higher unit withdrawal chances and promotion available to more units
- Galleys can go in ocean with probability of sinking like civIII
- Spies can move 2 and sabotage units/stacks

NERFS
- Quechas toned down
- Cannons toned down
- Pyramids take moar hammers
- Seige can bombard, civIII style but units become more expensive
- Gunships move 3, no road bonus, no terrain penalty but can take cities and can be loaded onto carriers and cross water.

EDIT: I like your ideas too

Bugs that need to be corrected:

Whipping overflow into gold restored (gold conversion looses resource-based boosts).
AI Worker bug that causes them to build farm-->cottage-->farm-->cottage-->etc.

Cities don't auto-hire spy specialists or any specialists for that matter

Add an 'expiration tech' to civics so they become obsolete at an appropriate point.

BUFFS
- Stronger Medieval units (or weaker LBs)
- Vassalage civic giving gpt depending on # of vassals and vassal size
- AGG also give Combat I to mounted and reduce war weariness
- Increase in trade route yield under mercantilism
- Chicken Pizza available with masonry and provides reduced collateral damage to garrisoned units

NERFS
- AP victory option available only when two leaders are eligible (same conditions for eligibility apply)
-TGL provides only one trade route per city (even non-costal cities get the trade route)
- Population limit for Domination victory significantly increased (60-70% would do)
- Slave Revolts part of No Events games
- Helping/Begging not yielding a forced peace treaty

Suggestions that I LOVE so FAR

1. Cities don't auto-hire spy specialists or any specialists for that matter
2. Fixing the unit grouping so it actually works
3. Add an 'expiration tech' to civics so they become obsolete at an appropriate point. (only really needed for slavery since serfdom is not a killer civic)
4. Galleys can go in ocean with probability of sinking like civIII (and civ II) I miss the drama of those kinds of decisions. You can see the land you want to move to and wonder if it's worth the risk. And them modify it so that once you made the journey following ships would have less chance to sink since the way was known.
5. Making it so SPIES could auto explore.

noto2 said:

Spoiler :

I like all of your ideas except
- i dont know if the precious metal mine nerf is necessary
- 1h to each farm in serfdom is pretty crazy powerful, I'm not sure that would be balanced. In the early game it would be balanced with slavery since slavery is so powerful but later in the game serfdom would end up being the strongest civic by far

Yeah, the collateral damage change is needed badly. Civ4's artillery makes combat very un fun.

Click to expand...

Well if other Labor civics are weak like they are then Slavery just dominates so they should each at least be good enough to justify an anarchy.

Even though it's logical I don't think the best way would be to have civics fully expire with a tech and force a change. I think Emancipation style unhappiness for staying in Slavery is much more elegant than that because you can work around it if you want to; you still have a choice.

Just that now Emancipation comes so late that often a game is won by whipping out an army before it becomes a factor. I guess the same would be true for +1 farms so you and K-Mod are right that there needs to be a reason to get out of Serfdom.

Precious metal nerf. I think massive starting commerce is the single biggest overpowering factor in the game. If you don't believe me have a look at the Awesome Starts Thread. With multiple Golds you may as well be popping a few techs of your choice from a hut.

Macksideshow said:

Spoiler :

BUFFS
- Tribal villages give same to player and AI at all skill levels
- Archer type units do collateral damage (but not a lot)
- Higher unit withdrawal chances and promotion available to more units
- Galleys can go in ocean with probability of sinking like civIII
- Spies can move 2 and sabotage units/stacks

NERFS
- Quechas toned down
- Cannons toned down
- Pyramids take moar hammers
- Seige can bombard, civIII style but units become more expensive
- Gunships move 3, no road bonus, no terrain penalty but can take cities and can be loaded onto carriers and cross water.

EDIT: I like your ideas too

Click to expand...

Yes! Exploring the ocean and hoping your Galleys wouldn't sink was awesome! Gives you at least a chance at making contact when you're isolated. And if there is only one tile of ocean you can cross it safely. Maybe the ability would be unlocked when you tech something like Math or Calendar or Compass?

auagxa said:

Spoiler :

BUFFS
- Stronger Medieval units (or weaker LBs)
- Vassalage civic giving gpt depending on # of vassals and vassal size
- AGG also give Combat I to mounted and reduce war weariness
- Increase in trade route yield under mercantilism
- Chicken Pizza available with masonry and provides reduced collateral damage to garrisoned units

NERFS
- AP victory option available only when two leaders are eligible (same conditions for eligibility apply)
-TGL provides only one trade route per city (even non-costal cities get the trade route)
- Population limit for Domination victory significantly increased (60-70% would do)
- Slave Revolts part of No Events games
- Helping/Begging not yielding a forced peace treaty

Click to expand...

I like how war is harder and more expensive in the Medieval era. I would rather Classical was like that too and would like to buff early defense or nerf early rushing.

I think Flanking I would work better than Combat I for Aggressive mounted. Along those lines I was thinking maybe Protective could get buffed siege (not that I really want to buff siege) but like a free Accuracy promotion for Protective siege.

More intuitive diplomacy options would be great, like if you could negotiate it the other way around and sell 10 turns of "I won't attack you" (or else).

Probably everyone can agree on nerf AP cheese or nerf Incas. Well except maybe the AP cheese Incan fanboys. : P

1. There should be an advanced "Emphasize Great People" control panel where a player could prioritize specialists. For example:

1. Merchant
2. Engineer
3. Scientist
4. Priest
5. Spy

If there's a Market, Merchants would be assigned. Otherwise, assigning Engineers would be attempted. If there's no Forge, but a Library existed, Scientists would be assigned. So basically, the list of priorities would be parsed from top to bottom.

2. No emphasization should NEVER starve or stagnate a city if growth is possible.

3. Tile preferences while building Wealth/Research should behave according to the same logic that applies to a building or an unit.

rah said:

Suggestions that I LOVE so FAR

1. Cities don't auto-hire spy specialists or any specialists for that matter

Click to expand...

I sympathize with this feeling, but there are times when a specialist is better than working a tile. I would like more control over which specialist the governor chooses, with spy specialists much de-emphasized over current practice. And a button that says "minimize specialists" for the times when you really want all tiles in the BFC worked.

2. Fixing the unit grouping so it actually works

Click to expand...

3. Add an 'expiration tech' to civics so they become obsolete at an appropriate point. (only really needed for slavery since serfdom is not a killer civic)

Click to expand...

I think buffing the other civics and adding an emacipation-like unhappiness mechanic would probably work better than forcing one out of a particular civic.

4. Galleys can go in ocean with probability of sinking like civIII (and civ II) I miss the drama of those kinds of decisions. You can see the land you want to move to and wonder if it's worth the risk. And them modify it so that once you made the journey following ships would have less chance to sink since the way was known.

Click to expand...

I like this idea, but it seems a bit more than a patch. Civ II (and I think Civ III) also lessened the chance of the galley sinking with the discovery of certain techs (like optics and astronomy.)

5. Making it so SPIES could auto explore.

Click to expand...

I sympathize with this feeling, but there are times when a specialist is better than working a tile. I would like more control over which specialist the governor chooses, with spy specialists much de-emphasized over current practice. And a button that says "minimize specialists" for the times when you really want all tiles in the BFC worked.

Click to expand...

Yeah I probably agree more with your explanation. I just REALLY HATE the spies.

I think buffing the other civics and adding an emacipation-like unhappiness mechanic would probably work better than forcing one out of a particular civic

Click to expand...

Yeah probably a better solution.

Lennier said:

I think buffing the other civics and adding an emacipation-like unhappiness mechanic would probably work better than forcing one out of a particular civic.

Click to expand...

Despite the fact that I suggested it, I agree with you. My original idea was formed from the reality that beyond a certain point of technology slavery, among others, just doesn't work. But from a game standpoint your approach is better.

rfcfanatic said:

1. There should be an advanced "Emphasize Great People" control panel where a player could prioritize specialists. For example:

1. Merchant
2. Engineer
3. Scientist
4. Priest
5. Spy

Click to expand...

This, I want this and I want it now.

How about for cities if you double click a tile in the city screen it locks that tile so the city will always work it, kinda the same way as you can force specialists. Ability to block certain specialist lines in a city would be nice too, even though both ideas are more micro.

Slavery discussion reminds me of a Louis CK comedy bit (NSFW, language):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkjmzEEQUlE&t=2m52s

I like the lumbermills idea.. more than enough historical evidence to show lumber mills being used by the romans in the 3rd century AD - I think they presently come too late in the game

Yes, early though to change the math on chopping. Maybe then if they nerfed chopping a bit there might actually be a choice to be made instead of the normal chop without thinking.

In making lumbermills more of a choice I think something that would help is giving a riverside lumbermill the commerce that is lost by the forest. I do sometimes choose lumbermills over workshops, but never on a riverside.

A not completely thought out idea...lumbercamps as an improvement that adds to a forested tile available at an early point in the game, upgradable to lumbermills in fewer turns than building them from scratch.

I would like to see a feature where alphabet unlocks a "language"... any civ who researches alphabet starts their own language (similar to how you can found a religion).

If you TRADE for alphabet, then you acquire the language of the civ who gave you alphabet.

Having the same language gives +diplomacy points, having different language gives -diplo points (just like religion).

Would be neat be to see how it would play out and would also encourage people to trade / gift alphabet ASAP. (I know I sometimes hold on to it so that other civs can't trade for techs, they can only trade with me!)

Nerfs:

1. no more peace vassal during a war unless the master is already at war with the same opponent.
2. cavalry. (withdrawing against my gunship? I'd like to see that)
3. In general ancient unit promotions should be less effective against modern ones

Buffs

1. modern units. Each era's unit should get at least 1 free first strike per era against older ones.
2. oil well
3. air/missiles against ships