Experience for Workers?

Unlike the other "small" units like Great People, Missionaries, Inquisitors, etc., Workers don't get used up. They can literally be in play for the entire game. And like military units, they have a specialization. But despite that similarity to military units (which receive promotions for performing their specialty, which is combat), Workers DON'T get better the more they perform their tasks.

I believe it would be useful to create a set of Worker promotions to reflect their developing expertise. Each time a Worker completes a project (building or tile improvement), it would receive a small bit of experience. That experience would be weighted by the size of the project just completed. Build a Road, teeny bit of Experience. Level a forest, earn a bit more. Build a Fortress, get a significantly greater experience reward. Etc.

The promotion selections would of course be related to the tasks of a Worker:
-1 turn to project duration
-2 turns to project duration (= -1 plus -1 rather than a -2 added to the previous -1)
-3 turns to project duration (max)
+1 movement point
+1 movement point when traveling on Roads
+1 movement point when fleeing nearby enemy units
+1 Stealth (having learned how to not be spotted by enemy units)
Etc.

After having worked in Construction for the last 3000 years, I would imagine that a Worker should become better at what he does!

Wow, this makes sense.

I don't think that would work:
1. Most workers are built early in the game, and last the entire game.
2. It's not like military units which spend long periods not doing anything.

Anything you did would just benefit everyone the same amount - a lot of work for nothing. Military units in peaceful civs don't get experience.

Bulldog Bats said:

I don't think that would work:
1. Most workers are built early in the game, and last the entire game.
2. It's not like military units which spend long periods not doing anything.

Anything you did would just benefit everyone the same amount - a lot of work for nothing. Military units in peaceful civs don't get experience.

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#1 really isn't valid, considering Scouts built early in the game are frequently still active at game's end as well.

#2 is not entirely relevant either, because if a player is a warmonger, his military units will be active for the entire game as well.

I think your argument about military units is focused on just those relatively few turns that a military unit is actually engaged in combat = experience gain. However, that doesn't take into account those turns spent moving to combat locations. (Or spent waiting for combat to come to them, as in Garrison duty.) As a comparison between Worker and military unit, think of the construction duration the Worker spends as being transit time, and the last turn where the Worker completes the project as its version of "combat" = experience is finally accrued. (Along with actual transit time as the Worker moves from job to job.)

Since Workers are active more, the cost of promotions should be 50% (at least) higher to make it harder.

XP

Lux/Strategic Improvement- 4

Bonus Improvement- 3

Unique Improvment- 3

Road- 2

Other Improvements- 1

Promotions

Farmer l and ll- Build improvements farms and Plantations +10% and +25% faster

Miner l and Miner ll- Build improvements Mines and Quarries +10% and +25% faster

Requires Miner/Farmer l- Protection l, ll, lll- 5, 10 and 30 HP

Requires Miner/Farmer l- Speed l and ll= l= +1 movement, ll= -1 turn when constructing improvements

Requires Miner/Farmer ll- Medic- When paired with a military unit, the military unit gains +5 HP

Requires Miner/Farmer ll- Watchman- +1 Vision

Camper- -1 improvement speed when constructing Camps

jlim201 said:

Since Workers are active more, the cost of promotions should be 50% (at least) higher to make it harder.

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I wouldn't complain. After all, _any_ experience gain/promotion is more than what they're getting now.

But just as a point of comparison, just how many promotions would that initial Warrior unit (given that it survives) have by the end of a warmongering game? Workers earning promotions should be able to accrue about the same number of promotions. (Noticeably fewer, actually, because it takes a fair amount of time before the player can build that first Worker.)

Workers are much less likely to die, and they stay the same throughout the game, and military units die, get upgraded etc.

Captain - that is exactly my point.

As to #1 - Almost all workers are alive for the entire period of the game, and always active (unless there are no improvements to make, which is rare except for late in the game.

As to #2 - If someone is using their military units more than others, they are getting experience. If they are not warring, they are just sitting around, and should not be getting any experience. The improvement of military units mimics life - through history, the way most soldiers get promotions and awards is for accomplishments in battle, not for sitting around in peacetime.

jlim201 said:

Workers are much less likely to die, and they stay the same throughout the game, and military units die, get upgraded etc.

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So? By the end of most of my games, I usually have nearly all of the military units I've built still alive. (But then, my play style involves avoiding warfare as much as possible. Let the other civs wear themselves down and slow their economies by warring with one another.) And doesn't the Scout count as a military unit that has no upgrades available? (Other than changing the upgrade path by acquiring "modern" weapons from an Ancient Ruin.)

Bulldog Bats said:

Captain - that is exactly my point.

As to #1 - Almost all workers are alive for the entire period of the game, and always active (unless there are no improvements to make, which is rare except for late in the game.

As to #2 - If someone is using their military units more than others, they are getting experience. If they are not warring, they are just sitting around, and should not be getting any experience. The improvement of military units mimics life - through history, the way most soldiers get promotions and awards is for accomplishments in battle, not for sitting around in peacetime.

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But isn't that the whole point of experience and promotions? The longer a unit does something, the better they become at doing that something. Besides, with the increased presence of barbarians in the game, a player's military units can easily keep themselves busy hunting barbarian = gaining experience (provided you add the Barbarian Unlimited Exp mod) for the entire game. [Before you jump on the use of a mod, let me say that I can see the reason for increasing the kill barb opportunities, but then say "But after a certain point they aren't worth any EP." is entirely bogus. Combat is combat = experience.]

Captain - My point is that with workers, pretty much every worker stays both alive AND active for the entire game - therefore, all would get promoted pretty much equally. The fact is that in modern times, it takes more to do anything. Setting up a farm (or building a road, trading post/shopping mall or whatever) in 2013 take a lot more time and resources than it did in 200BC. Therefore, the civil promotion is kind of built in.

On the other hand, to me, military promotions make sense. If you go to war, you either get killed or experienced. If you sit around in peacetime, you don't get many new skills.

Seems to me this is one issue where the game clearly mimics life.

Military units gain experience by things that damage the unit. (except when a ranged unit bombards.. but presumably it is at potential risk of getting killed by the unit it is attacking)

Bulldog Bats said:

On the other hand, to me, military promotions make sense. If you go to war, you either get killed or experienced. If you sit around in peacetime, you don't get many new skills.

Seems to me this is one issue where the game clearly mimics life.

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But that view totally discredits training. In your view, the ONLY thing that bestows experience is combat. That would mean that military units like SEAL Team Six wouldn't have been nearly competent enough to take down Bin Laden. Much/most of the "elite" combat units in the world today are elite because of 98% training and 2% combat experience.

So I really don't see how the game mechanism "clearly mimics life."

Because:

1. The vast number of military promotions and awards (at least the major ones) occur during battle.
2. Yes, military gets training during peace, but so do almost all workers - companies have training sessions all the time. Also, as I said before, improvements today take much longer than in the past - consider:
Major roads - a interstate highway v. a Roman road, which took a couple a workers and shovel and pickaxe
An ancient trading post, which was nothing more than a couple of stalls v. a big shopping mall
Ancient farm, which was a couple of guys, a couple of tools, and a couple of animals to pull (maybe) v. modern farms, which are major business enterprises.

Both take the same amount of turns, yet the modern version is both infinitely more complex and expensive to set up and maintain, and requires much more manpower, TRAINING and EXPERIENCE (sorry - no access to boldface) and training. As such, I would submit that there already is a ramping up for modern workers in the game, without having to change anything.

In the case of BOTH civilian and military units, the capability of Modern versus Ancient boils down to the availability of advanced tech. For civilians its bulldozers and tractors making dozens/hundreds of workers as productive as what took thousands of workers in Ancient times. It also enables the Modern workers the ability to complete projects in a fraction of time that it took their Ancient forebears. For military personnel, their power on the battlefield relates to advances in weaponry, coupled with improved military doctrine. As a comparison, something as small as a squad or platoon of SEALS can accomplish as much as an entire Roman legion. Probably more.

HOWEVER, unlike Military units which get both promotions and more advanced weaponry via Upgrades, Workers can work faster (as the turn time scale contracts), there's nothing to account for their being able to work better. That is, a Worker built in the Modern Era works only as well as a Worker built in the Ancient Era and since spent millenia working at the same task.

Do you think that a military unit built in the Modern Era should have the same promotions as an Ancient Era-built unit that has been upgraded to the same physical level as the Modern Era unit? That wouldn't be right or reasonable imho. Likewise for the same comparison between Modern Era-built Workers versus Ancient Era Workers. There needs to be something to acknowledge the improved competence of the older and wiser units.

I would agree there should be something for civilian workers, if, like military, they were built throughout the game, rather than the vast majority early in the game.

I guess we can agree to disagree...

Bulldog Bats said:

... rather than the vast majority early in the game.

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This is probably where it is our playing styles that diverge. I find that in all of my games, I am building more Workers in each Era. Especially when I complete researching Railroads. Then I have sudden, LARGE increase in the number of Workers. [Mostly it has to do with my adding more cities. Each time I build a new city, one of the first things I do is build/buy a Worker.]

I don't see the same problem than bulldog bats.

Simply, having specialized workers would be a micromanagement nightmare. Remember what difficulty you have to aim and place this upgraded scout into an archer, and into a crossbow, and into a rifle, etc. ? on the battlefield ?

I would opt for a global workers upgrade. Like the bonus in building times they can have off wonders or social policies.

Possibly, an upgrade tree.

As i am in it, do the same for military units : they have minor upgrades out of a tree (like the one of Titan Quest, a hack & slash), and more decisive upgrade around specific GGs, which are rarers and way more simple to sort of, like aim and place.

This seems quite an interesting concept, but I also fear that it would be fairly micro intensive. It might also make the early game a little tedious; if improvement build time is meant to improve with experience, then the starting point must be slower.

Camikaze said:

This seems quite an interesting concept, but I also fear that it would be fairly micro intensive.

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Can you develop please ? If you think that we would be needed to click on things, yes (more than now where nothing is planed for workers), but what I was more thinking about is that as the game actually plays, it would be a nightmare to find the good unit among all others, and put it on place, not to mention the absurd calculations about "what is the fastest : using this upgraded worker to this location, but moving it quite extensively, or use this less or no experienced worker which is only one hex away ?" )

It might also make the early game a little tedious; if improvement build time is meant to improve with experience, then the starting point must be slower.

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All upgrades wouldn't have to be tied with build time exclusively, it could be workers that can defend themselves, workers with increase move speed, stealth as said in the OP, and separating build times by categories, mines, farms, trading posts, plantations, quarries, etc. + possibility to make each of them better, as to tie their output with workers upgrades instead of technology, and with more variations, etc.

I just read through this thread and it held my interest!
I'd be happy if I could name a worker as I often kill most of them off when cash is tight in the early-mid game and aquire a bunch through conquest later on - did my original survive the cull?!
Yes I think there's some merit in limited promotions, but also agree with the micro-management concern.