Single tile ocean expansion limit

A

ae_savant

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 28, 2011
Messages
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My biggest issue with CIV5 is that the ocean expansion of civs crowds out any free movement. It seems pretty unrealistic that a 'civilization' can lay claim to ocean tiles hundreds of miles off the coast, yet this is always the case as the game progresses.

Is there a mod to limit ocean tile expansion to 1 tile?

Thanks in advance.
 
Countries can and do lay claim to waters a pretty good distance off their shores. Also, there's a lot of fish, oil, natural wonders, and luxuries in game that are often more than one tile off-shore.
 
What bugs me with this is in the early part of the game if a coastal city locks a coastal tile you can't sail triremes or galleas past without getting an open borders treaty. This does seem a little unrealistic, even today it takes a huge amount of intelligence resources to patrol and guard an expanse of coastline to prevent the wrong ships from trespassing. Open borders if ok but it takes a while to get to civil service and in the ancient era I don't think anyone bothered asking permission to sail anywhere. The idea of internationally respected national maritime borders wasn't even thought of.
 
Just DOW that civ and sail through. Might take some damage (XP!) as you pass through, but a peace offer will come soon enough.
 
Browd said:
Just DOW that civ and sail through. Might take some damage (XP!) as you pass through, but a peace offer will come soon enough.
Click to expand...

Yeah but it still seems silly that you have to DoW for that. If Im trying to get friendly relations of its a warmonger that i'm trying not to piss off a DoW can be the worst thing to do :)
 
I'm not sure why you feel it is unrealistic when this is reality today. Sail through any ocean claimed by China or fly over any country for that matter and you will be contacted quite quickly.

You have to file flight plans to fly over countries and coast guards do have the right to stop any ships and board them that are sailing through a country's water.

So, no, sir, this is not unrealistic.
 
cinattra said:
I'm not sure why you feel it is unrealistic when this is reality today. Sail through any ocean claimed by China or fly over any country for that matter and you will be contacted quite quickly.

You have to file flight plans to fly over countries and coast guards do have the right to stop any ships and board them that are sailing through a country's water.

So, no, sir, this is not unrealistic.
Click to expand...

I think the argument is that while this is the reality today, it certainly wouldn't be the reality when you would be using triemes still because the state wouldn't have the capacity to monitor its sea borders that closely.
 
That's a horrible idea, most of the seafood and underwater oil will be totally inaccessible. Why not just give caravels the sneak promo they had in civ4?
 
I agree - it seems crazy that you can't sail around a continent, just because an AI has a coastal city, or have to take a negative hit with CS.
 
Redaxe said:
What bugs me with this is in the early part of the game if a coastal city locks a coastal tile you can't sail triremes or galleas past without getting an open borders treaty. This does seem a little unrealistic, even today it takes a huge amount of intelligence resources to patrol and guard an expanse of coastline to prevent the wrong ships from trespassing. Open borders if ok but it takes a while to get to civil service and in the ancient era I don't think anyone bothered asking permission to sail anywhere. The idea of internationally respected national maritime borders wasn't even thought of.
Click to expand...

The real problem is blockading sea routes without open borders.

Would it fix things to allow free passage of waterways as if there were always open borders there?

Off the top of my head, I'm having trouble envisioning a major abuse case with that system.
 
GoStu said:
Countries can and do lay claim to waters a pretty good distance off their shores. Also, there's a lot of fish, oil, natural wonders, and luxuries in game that are often more than one tile off-shore.
Click to expand...

actually, according to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, state territory ends 12 seamiles off the coast. Only in Civ can you claim three tiles ot deep ocean and actually block a passage with your cultural borders.


Solution is pretty simple: You can't aquire ocean tiles by any means.
 
That only affects the modern period. The game goes back to BC. For centuries, naval exploration followed coastal routes, such as Europe around Africa to get to the Orient.
 
Galgus said:
The real problem is blockading sea routes without open borders.

Would it fix things to allow free passage of waterways as if there were always open borders there?

Off the top of my head, I'm having trouble envisioning a major abuse case with that system.
Click to expand...

It would be possible to block work boats from setting up on sea resources, albeit at the cost of unit maintenance.

Maybe the ability to 'block' with your cultural borders at sea should be tied to a midgame tech like Astronomy or Navigation. Only once you have ships that could enforce borders would you be able to close them.

Quineloe said:
actually, according to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, state territory ends 12 seamiles off the coast. Only in Civ can you claim three tiles ot deep ocean and actually block a passage with your cultural borders.


Solution is pretty simple: You can't aquire ocean tiles by any means.
Click to expand...

Yes, but how big is a Hex in miles?

You're the second person to bring up the idea of not claiming ocean. This just doesn't work at all; how would you make use of any sea resource?
 
sea resources can actually appear in ocean tiles? I'm not sure that's correct. And if it were, change it so sea resources only appear in coastal tiles.

That only affects the modern period. The game goes back to BC. For centuries, naval exploration followed coastal routes, such as Europe around Africa to get to the Orient.
Click to expand...

and before that ruling, anyone could sail anywhere. The concept of the 12 mile zone was a new one.

edit: I just spawned a huge island map and revelead it w/ biology. Not a single resource of any kind was in ocean tiles. Coast tiles extend 3-4 tiles deep into the ocean so the resource is still on a coast tile.
So that argument doesn't apply.
 
Perhaps an easy partial solution to this would be to allow triremes to move onto an ocean tile so long as that is adjacent to a shore tile. This could be unlocked with Optics to reward Civs who take the naval technology's to enhance their exploration. It means you can't cross oceans but you can get around coastal tiles that have been claimed by other civs. It takes even cultural heavy Civs a while to claim ocean tiles (as they have such low yields) so it should make it easier to explore without changing to many game mechanics.

It gives good synergy with Optics which is the invention of tools that allow sailors to see further into the distance so they can traverse further from the coast.
 
good point by Redaxe. It's a bit silly that a tier 1 ancient era tech allows you to set sail, and then you don't improve on that ability until the renaissance era.
 
Redaxe said:
Perhaps an easy partial solution to this would be to allow triremes to move onto an ocean tile so long as that is adjacent to a shore tile. This could be unlocked with Optics to reward Civs who take the naval technology's to enhance their exploration. It means you can't cross oceans but you can get around coastal tiles that have been claimed by other civs. It takes even cultural heavy Civs a while to claim ocean tiles (as they have such low yields) so it should make it easier to explore without changing to many game mechanics.

It gives good synergy with Optics which is the invention of tools that allow sailors to see further into the distance so they can traverse further from the coast.
Click to expand...

I'd be okay with this idea. It'd make all the unique and non-unique pre astronomy ships a lot better for exploring and fighting.

I'd also be good with them being able to enter deep water, but taking Attrition penalties to do so. That'd make a push to something you can see worthwhile, but random exploring would be a deadly gamble.
 
As long as naval units are not barred from sailing around coasts until caravels (or whatever the first sea-going craft is).

Let's look at reality - if all I have is a small boat to sail passed an ancient coastal town, all they are going to be able to do is shake their fists at me, or maybe fire an arrow with a bow - that's not going to stop me. Heck - the Vikings were crossing the Atlantic in boats not much bigger than a dingy, and Europeans were criss-crossing the Mediteranean since ancient times. Even something like in Civ II or III, where a triremene could venture out, but there was a smaller chance that it could be lost.
 
GoStu said:
I'd be okay with this idea. It'd make all the unique and non-unique pre astronomy ships a lot better for exploring and fighting.

I'd also be good with them being able to enter deep water, but taking Attrition penalties to do so. That'd make a push to something you can see worthwhile, but random exploring would be a deadly gamble.
Click to expand...

Actually an attrition penalty might be best for improving early exploration. It certainly does add to the sense of danger with scouting
 
GoStu said:
I'd also be good with them being able to enter deep water, but taking Attrition penalties to do so. That'd make a push to something you can see worthwhile, but random exploring would be a deadly gamble.
Click to expand...

This is the answer! It's both good gameplay with meaningful risk/reward choices, and realistic. A small boat can still go out in deep water, it just increases the chance of death if there is a storm or problem of some kind.

I would also add a chance of losing the unit which increases with every consecutive turn that ends on an ocean tile.
 
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