Noble's Club CXXXVI - Pericles of Greece

tijup

Warlord
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
246
The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Pericles of Greece, whom we last played in NC LXXIII. The Greeks start with Fishing and Hunting.
Pericles.jpg



  • Traits: Pericles is Creative and Philosophical. CRE give +2:culture: in each city, meaning they grow without your having to built monuments and libraries, and also lets you build those libraries (plus theatres and the UB, Odeon) for half the hammers. PHI gives you +100% Great Person points and half-price universities.

  • The UB: The Odeon, a Colosseum that gives +2:) instead of +1, 2 free artists, and +3:culture: -- a nice boost if you're going for a cultural win.
Odeon.jpg



  • The UU: The Phalanx, an Axeman with +100% defence against chariots, the usual bane of axemen.

Here's our start:

nc_pericles_zps18c28a73.jpg


Spoiler map details: :

Fractal map, high shore lines.

Spoiler map edit :

Added a river somewhere in the south.
Nothing else changed.



Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:


  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)

  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)

  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)

  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)

  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)

  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 73 Pericles Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians: :

1 Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2 Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3 By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4 Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5 Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6 Exit the worldbuilder.
7 Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
 

Attachments

PHI + Marble in BFC + lots of food. Capital born for a GP farm.

I would guess people will go for a cultural or science victory?
 
Well I definately want to give this one a spin, it will probably be my 3rd and last prince playthrough. I haven't played a NC game at prince with huts on, so I'll do that for a change. If I win this one I'll move up. I'm thinking SIP. I think I'll go boat first. I"m not sure about my first tech though. I'm thinking BW, there are plenty of forests to chop, plus if i'm building boats I'm growing so I have pop to whip. Any one have other ideas?
 
Mega GP farm can work as beauro capital as well, more or less 1 scientost after representation = 1 fully developped cottage. Settling 1E gives 7 scientists to work using all bonus tiles (including marble and cows, that means equivalent of 7 towns + seacommerce. +9 beakers per every settled scientists (+multiplied by cheap library and cheap uni). SIP gives 6 scientists and +1 food but 7 forests means 7 free scientists after biology (42 free beakers multipliead by 350% is over 1,5 hundred beakers completely for free!) So why bother founding cottage place for better capital?

I will also consider to find a spot for secondary GP farm, as only 2 national wonders are allowed. I am tempted for cheap Oxford + NationalPark in capitol (with so many food and philo trait it should be vey early), NE somewhere else with nice food. I remember there is a strategy thread showing that 2 GP farms are more effective than only 1.

Anyway - one of the best leaders, great traits for csience victories (cheap libraries and cheap unis), strong UU, nice UB (allowing to generate culture after conquest, togather with creative gives border pop in 2 turns). Starting techs are so so, but who cares xD

If I played, I would SIP and go for Oxford + NP + settled scientists combo
 
Emperor/normal

Spoiler :
I'm in a decent position at 500 AD, figure I'll just try to lib MT

I did a Oracle/MC/Mids slingshot followed by GLH on two cities, then I expanded to 7 as fast as I could while getting GL, Colossus, and Parthenon.
 
Mega GP farm can work as beauro capital as well, more or less 1 scientost after representation = 1 fully developped cottage.

But the bureau bonus is applied to the base commerce, not beakers.

Bureau cap is not for every game, I wouldn't move my cap just for the sake of doing it. If you're playing a domination game vassalage and nationhood are good alternatives for bureau.
 
But the bureau bonus is applied to the base commerce, not beakers.

Bureau cap is not for every game, I wouldn't move my cap just for the sake of doing it. If you're playing a domination game vassalage and nationhood are good alternatives for bureau.

Additionally to what you said, A coastal capitol with good food will eventually bring in a good amount of commerce through trade routes (enhanced by the great Lighthouse and the Temple of Artemis if you choose to go for these) and coastal tiles. Furthermore, don't forget hammers also get multiplied by the bureaucracy bonus. Moai hammers!

You can take a look at this example of a coastal bureaucracy capitol (taken from immortal university 101):
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0534_zpsbff0110e.jpg


We can estimate (roughly) the bonus from Bureaucracy:
+14:hammers: and maybe +25:commerce: during golden age
+8:hammers: and +18:commerce: out of golden age

Nothing fantastic but better than nothing ;)
 
Whoops, I faaailed, academy boosts beakers, beauro not :) Anyway, having such a capitol I still will go for Oxford + NP + settled specialists and adopt Free Speech instead if I had some cottageable land early. Oracle -> GE gambit can work on immortal, and if GLH would be still available (doubtfull) I will prefer it to Mids even. It is Pericles, the way to Constitution after Philosophy is extremely short (GS and GM bulbs)
 
Spoiler Emperor, no huts, events or vassals, resigned 725 BC :

Settled in place. I did all the possible mistakes: wasting worker turns by having the wrong tech and build order, not adopting Slavery while my settle is on the way to the copper, building a WB too many when I'm at the happy cap. Louis turned out a lot closer than I thought he was after finding most of all that jungle empty.
By 725 BC, I'm in horrible shape, Louis is about to declare next turn. I have no way of defending. I deserved losing this one, I was neither having a plan how to attempt a win nor paying close attention to what my cities or workers were doing. No using of PHI despite the land allowing it, constantly forgetting to whip, oversized unhapy cities, a completely random tech path (something bad like AH->Mining->BW->Wheel->Writing->Pottery->IW->Agri->Aesthetics)... I probably would have lost this one on Noble as well with that quality of play.
zaxp2il.jpg

 
Spoiler :
Jesus, does Louis XIV always drop cities faster than a whore's drawers? He's got 5 cities in 325BC on noble...
 
Additionally to what you said, A coastal capitol with good food will eventually bring in a good amount of commerce through trade routes (enhanced by the great Lighthouse and the Temple of Artemis if you choose to go for these) and coastal tiles. Furthermore, don't forget hammers also get multiplied by the bureaucracy bonus. Moai hammers!

You can take a look at this example of a coastal bureaucracy capitol (taken from immortal university 101):
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0534_zpsbff0110e.jpg


We can estimate (roughly) the bonus from Bureaucracy:
+14:hammers: and maybe +25:commerce: during golden age
+8:hammers: and +18:commerce: out of golden age

Nothing fantastic but better than nothing ;)

That's nice. I have to admit that I've thought that bureau is only woth it with a good cottage spot, preferably with helper cities. Bureau seems to be a good peace time civic in this situation.

I suspect thought that you switched to nationhood when you started plotting war (this was a conquest game?).
 
Ill be taking this one on emperor.
Spoiler :
I'm gonna open with workboat first, working the forested hill for 10 turn workboat. As for tech, path I'm thinking early bronze working because of all that forest.
 
I suspect thought that you switched to nationhood when you started plotting war (this was a conquest game?).

To Vassalage IIRC, for better cannons as I lib'd Steel.
Nationhood would be a good idea as well for drafting grenadiers :goodjob:
I have yet to push this game (and others) forward :(
 
I did gave it a try before posting it, playing it loosely until 0AD, pressing return way too often, paying almost no attention to whips and research. I was just wanting to make sure that the map was ok and well balanced.
The result is a weird game on my side, Pericles' traits are nice, but I didn't leverage them as I should have. Nevertheless, it's an interesting game.

Spoiler :

Early on, s/o was pumping early wonders, GLH, TGW and SH went out very quickly.
I oracled CoL, sent the missionary to Louis (or built one ? can't remember), and waited, and waited, and waited for an AI to research Alpha.
Once Louis got it, I managed to back-fill some techs, and had to self tech IW, since only Monty got it, and we were in a phony war since century, so no way to trade for it.
I built MoM and TGL, made a shrine for confusianism since I managed to get Charly and Louis to it

As s/o has already mentioned, Louis has spread pretty quickly in my game too, and since I almost never wiped in the early BCs, I missed 2 spots (down south by the gold and an other spot east of gold, to share the corn)

The war is raging on my game between Charly, Monty and Elisabeth. They are DoWing each other every 20-30 turns, I often get involve to keep Charly at pleased. (always nice to have a buffer between me and Monty :-) )

Then, things went a bit wrong, and that was a wake-up call for me to pay a closer attention to the game (390AD !!). Louis DoWed me out of the blue. I moped his stack, and took peace while building an army.
I DoWed him as soon as I got 5-6 catas, I took peace from him for monarchy after he lost a few cities (he's down to two)

I've been surprised to get a visit from a distant civ on a caravel, a bit earlier than I was expecting. Since nobody seen him yet, I won't give his name, just yet :)
My wonderwhore AI is alive and kicking, he's way ahead of me (GNP-speaking), but still behind in techs and others.

It's around 700AD I think, I'm finishing Paper, I will bubble Education, and have a 2nd GS to bubble something else after that.

I'm unsure about continuing this game, I may replay it. I could still win a domination victory, but I wasted so many turns and hammers in the BCs that he feel crippled atm.

 
Spoiler :
I tried to do the Oracle -> Mids gambit again quicker but I failed to get GLH. I think a better strat might be to Oracle IW, which is guaranteed, then REX the continent while getting GLH. Attached two saves for right before overflowing to Oracle and right before forge finished in second city.
 
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