World History Mod Conversation

A Modders Cooperative Iniative!

So I begin this thread as a place for dreamers to meet and discuss.

The Dream is to have a Col mod that spans the world and it's history.

(This is mostly to stop us filling everywhere else up with off topic posts!!!)

The Current Plans:

Map Size: I would reckon we would need a map about 4 times the current size (Measuring from the Medieval Mod as that was the last one I played)

So that we have an 'Old World' and a West, East and South 'New World'. America, Asia and Africa.

World Maps I also found these rather tasty world maps from nevermind's thread.
The First Version will be built as a World Map Scenario.

Multiple Invasions: Fullerene is working on this, final state to be confirmed.



We The People: Instead of an Overlord Character in the Role of King/Pope, there will be an Underlord Character who could be your best friend or your worst enemy!

There will be a number of positve and negative influences on Relations with the Underlord, and many positive and negative events from this relation value.
Trade:

As to the 'Is it Technically Possible' Questions for trade, I don't think there are any more questions to be answered:


The point is that we have plenty of options for specific trade screens/environments throughout the ages.

Civics:
When you reach the 50% loyalty threshold for your empire, you can trigger a civics change (like in Civ4) where you can change certain civics depending on what you have discovered. When doing this you will have to survive a period of anarchy, where you will be attacked by opposition forces, and any cities that do not have a high enough loyalty will rebel.

You can also use this to reset your diplomatic relationship with the Underlord to Neutral, and reduce the tax level back to 0%.

Now I am no coder (I mostly just whip XML's Butt!) .. But I have seen great things come out of the Col mod teams on here. What Kailric and the DOANE guys have managed to do to Col leaves me genuinely astounded (Not to mention all the other innovations and expansions by Everyone over the years!)... I could list off a whole bunch of stuff... but I won't.
So who knows what kind of modcomp solutions the great Col minds could come up with, to potentially solve such hurdles! If the desire is here.

Tech Tree Thread

Latest Design Sheet

I don't think the mapsize is any problem. Mod should be playable at (almost) any size of map. But for starters it maybe could be developed using some Earth map as test environment.

About the invasions and king player: I would take different approach how to solve this problem. Although in theory ,the king faction probably could be dropped away totally,but as the game is programmed to have a colonial faction as playable civ and the king faction as overlord, it's easier to have some sort of king player.

But I would somehow swap the roles. In my solution the player would be the emperor and the king faction would be representing abstract rural population (independent farmers, villagers, etc). The invasions would be rebellions that would occur if you deny too often help for the rural population. And I believe it's possible to change the game not to end to the invasion and there could be many invasions/rebellions during a game. If you beat the rebellion the situation gets reset and if you lose, you lose certain amount of money/resources to the rebels.
The whole invasion thing would be just changed to another game mechanism: are you good ruler who cares for his rural farmers or a tyrant who keeps rebellions down with a force?

Bigger problem on global map would be where you sell your goods? Some solutions exists already in other mods (domestic markets and medieval), and I believe some good enough solution is possible to achieve. I'll write more on this later.

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As side note, I'd be very interested to work on this project with other modders. Of course one problem with team work is that people want different things and sees the game different ways. Before doing anything, a good plan should be made to define what kind of mod we want to create.


For reference, here is my post on similar topic from 2 years ago:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11147545&postcount=5

aaaaaaaaaaaah!!! I just wrote a massive response to this... and accidentally hit some kind of keyboard shortcut that sent me 'back a page' and lost everything!!! DAMN IT!!! Ugh I am going to go and have a small cry...

Ok quick version...

I also thought of the 'We the People' idea, I just quite liked the idea of shifting overlords to represent the change of power structures through the ages. But the Populace idea is simpler. (If we can remove the victory and make a reset feature.)

We The People:

Trade:

EDIT: I put my thoughts about these into the top post!

The Real Question:

I think the most important question to ask is not, 'what kind of mod do we want?' but
'what modcomps are we missing?' Like a 'Multiple Invasion Modcomp' and
'Can we make this modcomp so that it is easy to tweak?'
For Example:


Then you just Copy/Paste and 'tweak' the values to how you want each one to be. Which is hopefully technically easy (I have not actually looked at trade screen code for prices, etc.) Just time consuming.
Then anyone with an ounce of ability can put time in to make 1 or 10 or 100.
Rather than it taking up all the time of the 'Expert' coders.
Then you can conceivably make any kind of mod with XML knowledge (and that is just copy/pasting and word processing..) which anyone can do or help out with. Then the only coding a person needs to do is 'Tweaking' XML references in python and XML, rather than being stuck cause they cannot code the modcomp needed from scratch.
They can even collaborate and then go in different directions. Like one makes all the xml inputs for 20 Classical Era units, then another makes all the inputs for 20 Indutrial Era Units, then they swap, merge the files and then tweak the individual values to taste. The bit that takes the real time is Inputting the code references in all the relevant files.

Which is why I started with the 'Technical Hurdles' like Multiple Invasions (because one of this just seems odd... where in the whole of history would we put it, and it seems like the loss of a lot of potential game play enjoyment) With the ability to change up the available invasion units with each new invasion or tech advance or whatever (as fighting Pitch fork peasants for 12,000 years seems a bit odd.. )

The thing that will stop the mod being made is the coding 'Modcomp' hurdles so if we can identify these, design what we need them to do, with easy 'modding' access, and present them in a suscinct and pleasant read. THEN make all the limited Col Code Wizard Geniuses feel Loved, and Applauded for their mind blowing technical achievements, that they feel compelled to show off and make one or more of these listed components, or we say if you do this I will copy/paste create a whole load of units/buildings/references in the XML files for your mod so then all you would need to do is play around with the particular values(which is the fun bit) but all the endless repetive cop/paste in 3 or 4 files is already done for you!(which is the 'fun' bit)

The Modders Cooperative: Monkeys and Wizards

Thus we can trade our 'manual/slave' code labour for their Super Wizard Code Making Labour!
Then we the Plebs of XML can squirrel these away and bashy bash the XML together or seperately!
We could even make a labour trade thread, where the 'expert' modders post their XML needs which we fulfill, while they make a new modcomp from our list of 'missing needs' instead of wasting all that time doing the xml grunt work in their own mods. I certainly would be happy to undertake that as an XML monkey, and I know there are other supporters of mods and mod components that would do it too, or would be willing to learn for the sake of getting new easy to use mod components. I would also be happy to teach xmling, to increase the labour pool.
This is the most I can offer as I just do not have the head for coding.

I still can't believe how much I have done with my mod, thanks to the mod components of others (I really do have virtually No skill what so ever yet some how the mod exists!) thankfully now the mod team has a 'real coder' and my mod making days come with a lot fewer headaches!

Well, my brain isn't functioning all that great at the moment (just got in from a bachelor party) but I had some thoughts on this. To make a simple World History Mod to begin with you would want to center the Mod around a particular area like "Europe" then decide on the different Ages. We already have several according to History...

Ancient
Classical
Dark Age
Middle Ages
High Middle Ages
Renaissance
Industrial Age
Modern Age

Assign an Age to the Techs so that they only appear at the appropriate age. The Techs would determine what Professions, Units, etc are available.

Then decide how to transcend from one Age to the next. My idea on this is...

You would start in Ancient and advance through Classical all the while fighting your rivals or making diplomacy. At the end of Classical you would have the Barbarian Invasions that would attack all Civs. Kingdoms will fall, Alliances will be made in order to survive, and when the dust settles the Dark Ages will begin. The Kingdoms that survived or were created from the barbarian nations will be the continuing Civs. If the player survived he can continue on, or if defeated he may can take over one of the surviving Nations.

During the Middle Ages there were several Invasions with the main actors being the Vikings, Magyars, and the Saracens. So, in order to advanced to the Renaissance you must survive their invasions. Again, Kingdoms will fall and Alliances made all creating new Nations.

Then finally, at the end of the Industrial age you have the World War. This is set up through the victory conditions. In order to win you must be in an Alliance with all other Civs or have Conquered them all. To make it interesting certain Civs based on philosophical, religious, or military reasons would be very difficult to persuade to join your Alliance. There could be an alternate Victory such as the race to be the first to set a man on the moon or reach the stars.

In such a mod the Kings and Popes would need to be replaced with some other idea or completely removed.

That's just some of my beginning thoughts.

Nice input, I guess there is two ways to approach a world history mod, one is 'loose', the other is 'tight'.

Loose: Much like the Civilization system, where you essentially have the 'Building Blocks of History' Great Nations, Technologies, Religions, etc. But then you rewrite history in your own image, So the french Invented budhism and Conquered the World with Musketmen in a grand Alliance with the Vikings! It follows the basic path and direction of history, Swords came before Guns, and Windmills before Steam Engines but the details are rewritten with each game, who discovers what first etc, etc.

So in this System we would pretty much take the Civ approach, where the tech tree advances time and eras, so you get to tech X and it launches you into the next era upon discovery. Everything else just kind of flows around it and follows the players choices and the AI's (Or other players) reactions to them.

This is the simpler approach I think, and actually I think the existing Col Mods, already have almost all the necessary 'Components' to do it other than the ones I mentioned above, Like a Multiple Invasions Mod. (which I think is not that far fetched as it has sort of happened as an accidental by product of the Betray your colony mod I linked to above)

Some components just need combining or expanding/modifying, like Multiple trade screens that are both 'discoverable' and can be obseleted or adjusted by certain events, like the discovery of a resource that renders another mostly worthless. (A bit like what happened with Ivory and Plastics) So that Market Centre would disappear to be replaced with a new one, or the price of one product would plummet globally, etc. So for example the ability to have more than a North South East West Route, so that we could have a potentially limitless number of areas appearing and disappearing through the ages. The other Solution with this is the City/Building 'Gates' to new markets, so for example in the industrial age you could have an industrial and rural market, but only one can be built in a town, you then have to carry the appropriate goods between them and to them to maximise profits. (Much like Silk and Spice in Medi)

Another Is having lots of resource 'slots' in towns etc. (which has already been proven to be at least feasible by Mods like RaR) So you can have lots of new resources appearing and being dicovered throughout the ages. You would also need a 'revealing' resource system like civ, so new things like Oil or aluminium/bauxite can appear on the map with a discovery.

As well as the ability to obselete unit types and professions, although I think you have more or less achieved this in medi, where serfs upgrade to free peasants upon a tech discovery.

Tight: This is the more 'Strict' adherance to history, with events 'like the dark age barbarian invasions' being triggered at certain times or with certain events. I think this one is more complicated (A bit like my idea for 'Changing 'Kings'') Where you have to either as you say remove or transform the 'king' figure. I think this approach produces too many problems that would need to be solved..

My Thoughts:

I don't really like the idea of removing the 'king' concept, as it is one of the key features of Col. and a great balancing game feature. I much prefer the idea of transforming it into this give and take relationship, like the Pope discussion in Medi, or the 'We The People' Concept we talked about here. where you will be hit with positives or negatives depending on how well you treat 'The Representative' Especially with the developments that have been made in mods with new 'King Events' like the Censures of the Pope ('Strikes!!') or the granting of special units and abilities in games like RaR and DOANE(Maybe if we talk sweetly long enough they will share the Source Code or release somethings as Modcomps, like the 'Settlement Builder Equipment Pack') But anyway, if we could implement a 'gift giving' system that would allow you to improve relationship with 'The Representative' as well as hooking in various other actions with relationship modifiers both positive and negative, (like aquiring gold slowly reduces relationship like I mentioned above) and then hooking in events to occur at certain relationship levels, like tax hikes and censures when they are unhappy, and great gifts when they are friendly. We would have a system that could accompany us through the ages. With 'Independence' Being a way to reset the tax and other negatives by defeating the 'Rebellion'(Invaders) perhaps being launched from the city with the lowest Loyalty (Fealty/Liberty) or at a random bordeer edge or something.

From what I have seen in other mods, I don't think these things are far off from existence, they just need completing/merging/tweaking/expanding. I think to my mind the biggest one is the Multi Invasion Mod, if we could do that then I think everything else is almost there, gift giving already exists, it would just need to be linked into the Representative, accessed through a button like the 'trade with natives' system, perhaps accessed from a town with the 'Capital' building that can be upgraded through the ages but is unique to your first town, (or could perhaps be moved like the palace In Civ) then linking 'representative' events with how happy or sad he is, which can't be that far from already existing surely?
(I don't know how the events work at the moment, I think tax hikes are related to how much money you make or trading you do no? I also don't know how the 'Protection Units' are awarded, whether it is how happy he is or some other factor?)

Centric Concept:

Yeah my thinking is to make the game Euro Centric, At least for a first version, as it reduces the number of issues that need to be addressed, and then essentially having everywhere else populated by 'Native' Civilizations. (as there are already lots of features in existance for interacting with and influences these 'nations') (Like: Vassals, Converts, Pilgrims, Invasion, Trading, Learning From, Angering etc, etc.) (One hurdle would be how to 'Advance Natives' like giving them better Fighters. I suppose the simplest way would be to having advancing 'Craftable Weapons and Equipment' so they have some generic fighter, musket fighter, rifle fighter, add horse, add Motor Vehicle, add Tank, add Artillery, etc. and the fighters change profession..)

Again at the first stage I don't think we really need to worry about the details, like what eras or how many, we need to focus on the 'mechanisms' as the only way this mod will happen is if the wizards make the mechanism changes needed to facilitate the mod.

So the Question 'How will eras advance' is the right one, as we need a mechanism to do this, once we have the 'trigger', we can pull it once or 50 times. So for example if the trigger is techs, you then just add in the 'era trigger tech' whenever and where ever in the 'tech tree' a bit like Civ has it. But that would need SDK work with an xml string in the 'civics' (Which I have absolutely no hope of doing!) As well as what things can an era change 'trigger' perhaps the ability to spawn an army on the border of every 'civilised nation' comprised of a list of Xml Unit references and how many of that unit type is spawned..

That is really a 'Second Tier' mechnic, in that we only really need something to trigger an era change, the army spawning(or any other feature) would just make each 'Era Change' more flexible/moddable, you could have some eras where nothing really happens, technology just moves forward (A bit like the renaissance) where other eras all hell breaks lose (Like the Dark Ages) and you have to fight to hang on to what you have! Some could give a big Negative hit to your relationship with the Representative, as a new age brings new Liberty/Ideology/Desire for Personal Freedom, so you have to make extra effort to keep the Representative Happy and avoid loss of control. Or perhaps in at certain era changes it changes how much an action is 'worth' in diplomatic points, so perhaps in the beginning if you give 1000 gold you get 5 points to diplomacy, but in the renaissance it changes it by -2 so you only get 3 points and have to spend more money.. (Again Second Tier Mechanics..)

So right now I have been working on and looking at the Medieval Mod as a platform and figuring out what it lacks in order to make a Medieval World Mod, and then a Full World History Mod.

The Main Things are:

More Trade Screens: (which already is doable I just need to learn how )

More Resources: (which already is doable I just need to learn how )

Revealable Resources: Like Civ4 upon a tech discovery (is this possible?) (I know it happens on the city screen, I don't know about the map?)

Multiple Invasions: To allow you to put down rebellious factons if you have at least 50% Loyalty. With each 'Successful Independence' resetting the tax level to 0 and bringing the diplomatic relationship to 0 'Neutral' as opposed to say +/- 100.

Representative: Adding a gift giving diplomacy screen for the representative to actively improve relations, giving the player more control instead of the current (somewhat random feeling) demands of gold, etc., as well as allowing the army to 'recruit' era correct units, so that you are not forever fighting peasants with pitch forks. As well as 'Relationship' related events and oppurtunities. (Not sure how this system works in code terms, so I do not know how much of this already exists?)

What we have Already:

Changing Population:The ability to change the 'base population type' by tech, like the serf to peasant, which would allow us (I think) to attach different Professions/Abilities etc. to the Population through the ages.

City Size Limits: So early societies will not be able to have Huge Mega Cities, and they will grow through the ages based on buildings etc.

Expanding Borders and City Control Sizes: we can already have cities using the 'Fat Cross' like in Civ. So we have the potential to be able to build Mega Cities in the end. If we could make cities start with only there plot for control (when first founded), we could even simulate stone age tribes. With only hunter/gatherer abilities.

Vassals and Taxation: We can 'absorb' cultures, and tax them (could we also adapt this system to be able to 'gather' from certain plots under certain conditions, like a 'gatherer' could collect X food from a plot with wheat on it?) Or any other kind of 'Sit on this type of plot for X amount of time and gain X amount of resource X) like every 5 turns get 10 food from a wheat or fruit tile bonus)

Immagration and Pilgimage: You have people that can be spawned and travel to a certain location for certain benefits, when certain conditions have been met.

and so many more things!

There (to my mind) doesn't seem to be a lot of technical hurdles left to jump in terms of code creation. Mostly it is just understanding what we already have and how it works, then combining and merging and tweaking it all together to do even more than was first intended.

Then comes the copy/pasting and word/number changing that even a Monkey like me can do!

Vassals and Taxation: We can 'absorb' cultures, and tax them (could we also adapt this system to be able to 'gather' from certain plots under certain conditions, like a 'gatherer' could collect X food from a plot with wheat on it?) Or any other kind of 'Sit on this type of plot for X amount of time and gain X amount of resource X) like every 5 turns get 10 food from a wheat or fruit tile bonus)

Click to expand...

My Forts mod does this. Forts gather goods that can be picked up by your Wagons.

Well, one thing you could do to get started or to at least get a prototype to test with is expand on the Medieval mod to stretch from Ancient to the High Middle Ages. You will need to fill in the tech tree and find appropriate units to use as well.

Mare Nostrum probably has most of the units you would want to use. You would just to need to fill in the tech tree. If all that was done it would be a good starting point to test out any other aspects.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=323007

Yeah my first goal is to build a medieval world scenario, but cut off most of the map, then if I get that to a playable state, start on expanding the time frame. (Expanding into Africa, America and Asia) The biggest technical hurdle I see is the multivasion (New Word Will it go viral!?!) system and the representative relationship (which you sort have as a goal for in medi too with the Pope) (for a Major time frame version)

Most everything else is just learning how.to do what has already been done!

Yes I remember the fort system from Westward Ho!, how difficult would it be to expand this to a unit as well?

I am thinking for it as an ancient era resource mechanic (although we would need to do something with the ai I would guess..) (Unless we could just give it a cheat in the beginning that gives it an amout of stuff (food, resource, culture, science etc.)) every few turns, so it would be 'collecting resources and progress' at an average rate to the player, so you could be faster or slower depending how good you play..

Mare Nostrum was the classic era mod! I liked that one!

I don't really like the idea of removing the 'king' concept, as it is one of the key features of Col. and a great balancing game feature.

Click to expand...

I somewhat disagree with this - I feel little bit chained if some 'king' is looking after me and demanding taxes. Also, if the whole gameplay is about preparing against a big invasion from 'no where' it becomes repetitive very soon. It may fit to certain specific era, but I don't think it fits to whole history.

I would prefer the gameplay to be more about developing your society towards 'utopia' - a goal that can be reached by supplying them with lot of luxurious goods, building great buildings/wonders and protecting your folks from various dangers. Of course this can lead to conflict with other nations of similar goal.


Other thing: although eurocentric game is surely interesting too, I would much prefer global map game, as it's something not really yet seen in Colonization mod.

What I mean by not removing the king, is not removing the mechanic, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of the 'we the people' 'King' in that you have to treat your 'Representative of the people' well or they will be come less helpful and more demanding, where as if you can keep the people happy and wealthy they will not complain and seek to support you in endeavours and during rough times, bringing gifts of resources or units. This way you cannot just 'do what you want as king' you have to balance your goals with the desire of the people, otherwise they will become more demanding and militant. (in essence this would be cols version of health and happiness) giving them money for healthcare or education or 'bread' or 'games' (for a more roman vibe )

The point appoint a eurocentric game is it is one step at a time, aiming for a whole playable world all at once is too much, it is better to build one step at a time, with Medi we have a good platform for a eurocentric world game, where you start in europe, expand your trade, reachout to the middle east, then the far east, then on to Africa and america and begin to sail ships off into the pacific.

Once I learn how to add a trade screen, I will be able to build the medi game into a world map scenario, and then if i can get a multivasion mod comp, and learn to add more resources to town screen etc. (my current thinking is that we will probably need three lines of resources in the town screen, with about the same number of resources per line as RaR (so basically RaR screen with a third line)) Then when I learn how resources are discovered and things, I will pretty much be ready to fill it all in, as I think most everything else will just be copy/paste xml work..

Ok, so the 'We the People' as you call it, is basically very similar to my rural population rebellion idea from my first post in this thread?

I think we could build the mod on map that includes Europe + (North)Africa + Americas. The silk and spice route would be accessed in the east border of map and in the pacific ocean in the west. This would allow the timeline to be from classical era (~1000BC) to Colonial era (late 1700 AD).

To make it clear: so if I understood you correctly you agree that the invasions are people's rebellions? In that case I can try to program the multinvasion mod comp.

Summary: What we need to first test version?

• Multiple Invasions
• Tech tree from ancient era to renaissance era
• New units and buildings (they exists in mods like Mare Nostrum and RaR etc.. so not a big deal)
• Lot of "new" resources (yields as they are called, adding them is quite simple btw)
• The Map

edit:
And List of Nations (for example):

Playable:
-Rome
-Greeks
-Egypt?
-Carthage/ Phoenicians
-Franks/France
-Anglo-Saxons/English
-Spanish
-Rus
-Dutch?
-Portugal?

Barbarians:
-Celts/Gauls
-Berbers
-Mali
-Turks
-Arabs
-Goths
-Vikings (Maybe Playable?)
-Magyars
-Slavic
-Aztecs, Incas... etc


Well choosing Nations for this timeline is hard task... but it's not really that important in my opinion.

Names and details like that, is easy and anyone can do it ir change to whatever easily enough so it doesn't REALLY matter, as we could always go our seperate ways at the end and change them

Yes it is basically the same as the rural pop.concept, it is just a bit more or less generic.. Not Sure which it basically represents the second most powerful person in the realm, who could potential be your rival, the more things you do wrong the more power he could gain in opposition to you, and the more you would have to give to him, his faction, his followers and the people in genral to remain in power, the better you do, the more these people will do to stay in your good books, so you are not under their power like with 'the king' but you cannot simply ignore them, or they will show you you are not as powerful as you think you are! If we could make a negative trigger for invasion as well, like if you reach -100 relationship invasion is declared.

yes adding the new yields is not the tricky bit, it is updating all the various screens to take these new yields.

The map I have is a really nice global one, my plan for a first step is to simply make this a medieval scenario, having a 3x3 trade spot in Europe around Venice area, then one in the middleeast in the Jerusalem area, then one in china. Then my plan is to cutoff the rest of the map using impassable squares, once that is working, we can go back or forwards by adding adding adding. my feeling is to maybe go forward a bit first, essentially to col. Period, and opening Africa and America each a trade centre, and also opening a sea route to the pacific and china. Then expand back to a tribal/stone age and classical era. Once all that is achhieved onwards to the future!!!

The benefit of a multivasion mod is that it gives modders a new victory system, and more time to play (as the tax etc. Is not building towards a finale, but also means that a key mechanic isn't just thrown out, who the opposition is is then up.to the modder and the story of their mod.

from a making of a mod perspective, the details really don't matter, as details are the easiest thing to change and anyone can do it. The thing that stops a mod is the addition of mechanics (or the lack of the mechanic more specifically) as learning or knowing how to.do this is the much harder task!

If you could get a multivasion and relationship diplo screen mod working, that would be an awesome modders tool to play with!

Aha it would be bit like Civil War mechanism? I think I like that idea.

All right, we probably have similar goal but still different ideas... but we can use each others' work to achieve what we want to do.

So, I will attempt to create the following:

1. Invasion will start based on relations with the 'king' ( read: the opposition,peasant army, slave rebels, barbarian invaders, what ever you want to call it...)

Maybe player can call the invasion too when he feels like it? To do 'pre-emptive' strike.

2. Game won't end after the invasion is defeated. Situation just gets reset and invasion army must be build up again before new invasion.
And if you lose against invasion what happens then? You lose some money and resources or whole game should end?

3. No Taxes. Or did I misunderstood? Well it doesn't make sense to pay taxes to opposition or people, it's the other way round
Gifts are different story of course.


Sounds good enough?

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I will probably try to create little bit different trading system than you are suggesting but we will see...

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And you are kind of correct that it's easier to stretch time line forwards than backwards. At least when it comes to tech tree and choice of civs I think.

Sorry my last post was a bit crap had to do it from my phone... got a power cut! borrowing a laptop!

Yes two methods of starting 'The fight!!!' One is mega low relationship, a bit like how it happens with anyone, natives, player factions. Gets low enough and they kick off!

The other method we just keep the Indepence mechanic, if you can get an overall average of 50% 'Loyalty' (Independence) then you can attack the opposition and wipe them out by force, resetting everything if you win.

I would say that losing is losing, just like if anyone else killed you off, life at the top is dangerous, and armed coups rarely end with a slap on the wrist! More like a large blade to the neck!!

We keep the tax system (mechanic) basically think of it in reverse, you start with absolute authority, all tribute and tax and income goes to the 'crown' but if you mistreat your people they begin to demand a share of the profits, land owners want to keep a 'cut' of tax and yields and profits etc. So we start with a 0% tax cut and it goes up, 10% tax cut up, and up until eventually you are forced to surrender 100% of the 'crown' income to those Ungodly Upstarts! then you are left with one and only one choice! WAR!!!

Restoring you once again to absolute authority and a neutral relationship with the 'New Representative' as his predecessor is permanantly..... indisposed...Ahem.

As many a power has fallen to an unimpressed population, I think this will work really nicely as a mechanic while keeping the basic Col. system intact!

What we need for a very first test really is just:

Multivasion: With an extra 'invasion trigger' of low Diplo-Relationship.
Diplo Screen with the 'Representative of The People': So you can actively improve your relationship with gifts.

That is all that is really missing (other than my current level of Col. Modding Knowledge!)

I posted a link at the top of 'World Maps' which is all sort of geograhpical areas including the 'Roman World' and Full World (infact there are two Full world maps) So maps just need a little 'adjusting'. I am doing that with my current world map project. Again though technically maps are easy they are just time consuming!

90% of stuff already exists at the code level, I just need to learn where it all is now and how to duplicate it.

For now my first goal is making a 'world system' work on a geographical level (i.e. no 'edge') at least from an east west perspective. (hence the Trade Centres rather than trade borders as there will be no wall)

I love your idea of monkeys and wizards, Lib.Spi't.
I have also thought about the idea of expanding the great Medieval Mod (that I greatly love as it is) into something bigger, because Kailric had great ideas and features here. But limitations are clear, little time and being a XML number changing monkey. Definitely, count me on the monkey side.
Nevertheless, I poked my way to make crop bonuses be treated as cattle on my modmod (also Kailric's idea), so I could gather, let say cotton, and build a cotton bonus by my city.
Therefore, I think I can spare some time and help to make Medieval Mod even greater.

Cool!

Should be good, right now I am just waiting patiently for kailric to release some documentation on how to play with his codes. I also need to learn the specifics of Col. modding as I have only done Civ4 and there are some differences to be aware of!

When I have the info I want to try and add a new trade screen, then I can start paitning my map with trade centres (3 of them) After that I think it will be time to learn about yields and their screens, so I can start thinking about expanding play across the world!!

Feel free to post up in the Cooperative forum, and I will add you to the list of monkeys

I'm on halfway with multinvasions. Now you can start "revolution" if your relations are low with the pope and when you beat the pope's army a peace is made and you can declare conquest all over again. Game never really ends.

Few things that have to be addressed:

-Civic Options should probably be reset? They pop up every time a revolution is called.
-Invading army numbers should be reset. I'm not sure it ever recovers after first defeat.
-Invasion should get auto triggered, when Pope's attitude toward player gets low.
-After beating the invasion the pope's attitude should be reset.
-Maybe the attitude threshold should be made XML tag, so it can be adjusted.

And if someone has save files of late game in the Medieval Mod... I would have some use for them.

Nice one!

One thing though, I think it really needs to be that the 'pope' attacks you when relations are low (maximum low), rather than you attack him (that needs to still have the 50% global 'independence'(fealty)(rebel sentiment) [I have been trying to remember it's name for ages!!] level. Otherwise I think the player could easily manipulate the situation to get rid of the negatives against him, even if he doesn't have enough 'loyalty' stocked up to do so. Like you say this would lead to a situation where the rebels are never a threat, because they don't recover..You know what I mean, it will turn from a handicap to a player exploit..

I think rebel sentiment (fealty) should be reset with victory as well.. or at least be reduced by say 25% or more. So you have 'spent' the loyalty of the people in calling them to arms for you, you have one the war, now you must win the peace!
So that you have to maintain a strong 'fealty' production if you want to maintain a strong grip on your nation.

I wonder if we could work it so that all our civic options (whatever they will be) could come up all at the same time (so that with every rebellion your civilization takes one step forward) and you gain a 1 bonus instead of the 5-6 choices you get now? Or perhaps we massively expand the civics so that you can advance your civilization with every rebellion, perhaps new options could be unlocked with tech? A bit like how civic changes in civ lead to a period of anarchy? So with each rebllion you get the chance to change the 'nature' of your civ? (A reset is probably the best option for the 1st version though..) [one step at a time ]

I was wondering if we could add some new ways that the 'rebel army' expands, rather than just 'sentiment accumulation' (although with 50% needed each time it might be easier for them to recover..) We could perhaps have it for every X negative relationship points accumulated, so every time you lose say 10 relation with them a new unit is added? (or selection of units) or every time you give or accumulate X gold the army expands? I don't know what is possible code wise? But just so that many more things increase the oppositions power..So that they remain a more constant 'threat' and therefore remain a priority in your thinking?

Just reread the auto-invade bit again.. Yes agreed

Attitude back to neutral upon victory, Agreed

I always like new xml tags! It means I can play too!

What kind of conditions do you need for a save game?
Could we manufacture them in world builder?
If you give me the specifics, I can post up some requests for games matching your description in the Medieval thread.

Great Work, I am SO excited to see your final results!

Let me try to write down my vision once more, just to make myself clear:

In my solution there are 2 types of population: urban and rural.
Urban population are the units that the player controls. Rural population is abstract and invisible. For the great majority of history most people lived in small settlements and villages rather than city-like towns before industrial revolution. From Wikipedia:

In England, the urban population jumped from 17% in 1801 to 72% in 1891

Click to expand...

Trade happens (read: trade screen is accessed) in these urban centers(cities). Prices are determined by the demand of actual population living in the city (or possibly group of cities in certain area, to reduce need of micromanagement in logistics of trade goods) and by the abstract rural population.

From time to time the rural populations have problems like famine and they will ask the emperor's/state's help (usually food or gold, maybe other resources too). If you deny help for them they will get angry and rebellious forces will be deployed. When they get upset enough they will start the great rebellion. I'm not sure the rebellions should be able to called by the player at all, rebellions should be something that would be best to avoid. Of course the demands from rural pops. would sometimes be too much for current situation, so the players simply would have to take the rebellion sometimes.

Rural populations wouldn't be just annoyance, they could sometimes be helpful too. You could buy or even demand resources and soldiers from them. This might of course make them angry. And the immigration system would be from rural to urban immigration (actually pretty much same it is already). Also don't forget they are part of trade system.

For the civics, I'd like to have different system,a bit like civ4 has. Civics wouldn't be tied to rebellions instead you could change them when you will or certain criteria is met. But of course changing civics might lead to rebellions sometimes. And rebellion could lead to adaption of certain civic.

Since and if the rebellions can't be declared by player the fealty/liberty bells requires other uses. I would use them for administration points. Administration is required to run and change civics and it might also provide 'diplomatic power' against AI.

Bandits I would change into Nomads, and possibly make them more dangerous, especially during earlier eras.

I'll write more when we have some sort of test version of mod going on, for now it's better to get multinvasions to work first.
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What kind of conditions do you need for a save game?
Could we manufacture them in world builder?

Click to expand...

Just any kind so I can more easily test my code. I'd however prefer naturally developed games over the ones build by world builder.

Well I mean, you can have my latest one from medi if you like, but for example, my global fealty is still pretty low, so it is not that 'late game' but I have about 10 cities and the trade research is complete (it is now the Trade League).

About the Rural/Urban Concept.

Col. simulates rural and urban all in one in the town system, those who work the 'tiles' are rural population, the farmers, miners, shepherds and woodsman, all living in their little hamlets and villages. Those who are working the buildings, are your urban populace. As well as a town with a small pop. is actually like a rural village, and a town with a moderate pop. is knid of like a rural town (rather than an urban centre). This can all be simulated using existing stuff, like the pop. limit etc. So you cannot get massive towns and cities until the industrial era. But remember in places like Rome in the classical era had up to 1 million people living there.

Most rebellions were not really 'peasant' revolts, they were usually executed by educated nobility or royal pretenders who 'instigated coups and rebellions'.

Also if rebellion was stirring, a King would not simply standby and wait for it, if he had sufficient support and loyalty, (50% global fealty) he would simply seek to crush it before it got out of hand. This also allows fealty to maintain a system of 'population control or authority' so perhaps if a settlement has less than 30% (or X%) Fealty when a rebellion occurs (either by choice or not) they 'flip' to the rebels. So you have to constantly produce fealty in order to keep control of your situation.

This is more straight forward, as you don't have to remove or reinvent a mechanic, simply implement 'manipulations' (like reducing global fealty by 25% after a loyalist victory) This keeps it active and important throughout the game, and means you have to constantly work to maintain peace and control of your growing populations.

This also would, like a said, create the sense of the Civ4 Civic system, but keeping it in a distinctly Col. Flavour, so instead of periods of anarchy you have to actually go through Riots, rebellions and anarchy. So sometimes you have to pick the right moment to try and bring major change to your empire, by waiting till you have firm control and minimal opposition at court. So if you have over 50% Fealty in all your towns, then you can change civic options (independence trigger) Without worrying that you will lose any of your towns to opposition forces. Maintaining a strong army will allow you to change how you like without worrying about the opposition forces being a threat. Then when you stand Victorious you can bask in the glow of the Golden Age of your New Empires Order.

Anyway, I am really excited to see your multivasion modcomp working!