Food and trade routes

Hale_9204

Warlord
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
199
Location
Italy
In my recent game I had problems with food, and with problems I mean that I was getting too much of it (really too much, compared to toher civs); note that this game is based from a revision of the SVN around the 5th of december (I never upgrade in the middle of a game because it will screw up and unbalance things), so I hope nothin has changed in this time

As you can see form pic #1, on turn 1230 I am in the renaissance era and one of my city has reached size 120 (for comparison, the best city of the AI is "only" size 80); so I asked myself how I could have such a big city

In pic #2 you can see the answer: trade routes. They cause more or less 90% of the food produced in my city, which is really really a lot. I then decided to investigate to see how I could produce all that food.

My city has 14 trade routes, each with a base profit varying from 5.6 to 4 gold; the gold produced gets then converted into food, with the proportion 1 :commerce: 1.3 :food: ; since I'm running a civic that increases food from trade routes by 30%, I suppose the base ratio is 1:1.
In pic #1 are listed the modifiers for trade routes the most important of which is the population: every population point above 10, is a 5% increase to the trade route income (so for size 120 it is (120-10)*0.05=5.5=550%). Since population is so important, I asked myself how a pop increase modifies the trade route income: doing some calculations with an excel file (it is in the zip I attached) I saw that at size 121 the trade route produced 5,78 :food: more than at size 120.

This means that the more your city grows, the more food it produces and so the more faster it will grow; since every population consumes 3 food, there is 2,78 food of surplus that accelerates the growth of the city. This seems strange to me because I think that population can't grow indefinitely, but it shoud tend to a fixed value.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION: I redid the calculations using a ratio 1:0,1 between commerce and food; the food produced was 127.43, more or less the same as the food produced by buildings and tiles together. I think that this way the trade routes are still important, but you have to take care also of buildings and tiles (actually, if you have similar trade routes you can avoid working tiles, using population points only for specialists)

In the zip file I put the savegame and a copy of the excel file
 

Attachments

  • Traderoute1.jpg
    Traderoute1.jpg
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  • Food_city.jpg
    Food_city.jpg
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  • traderoutes.zip
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The actual city population seems to grow exponentially in the reported number, and so I wonder if there would be a way to increase food consumption for larger cities. For example, the first 10 people need 3 food each, the next 10 need 4 food each, and so on.
 
Both good points. There is already a wastage system for food early in the game. Does anyone know if there is a scale for the amount of food needed to get to the next population point and have we adjusted it for C2C? It should be the case that growing by one population should cost food proportional to the new population, ie is the food needs scale right?
 
My point is simply that we should reduce the food created from trade routes and put more attention on the food produced in the city and in the tiles. Actually, if a enemy attacks and pillages this city it has really no effect on the city growth (unless they blockade all the trade routes from the sea)
 
I'd suggest we simply cut out the +5% per population past any point. Don't see good cause for it really and it's ruining the gold and food balance in the mod. Might be the single biggest flaw we have in the whole balance structure the more I think about it.

And yeah, I've been thinking we should try to find a way to strengthen the food required to the next pop equation too.
 
My point is simply that we should reduce the food created from trade routes and put more attention on the food produced in the city and in the tiles. Actually, if a enemy attacks and pillages this city it has really no effect on the city growth (unless they blockade all the trade routes from the sea)

It's already been pointed out that Blockades have Not been working since SVN version 1575.(see bug thread by 45*38'N) So until that is Fixed this conversation is actually moot. And if you proceed with this could only compound the underlying main problem of Broken Blockades.

JosEPh
 
I've been saying this for a while now. It's a really big factor of imbalance. Other thing which I find imbalanced is the trade civic. With +50% bonuses from trade routes there is simply no other choice for your economy civic.
 
I think I may have a solution to this and the one about not having to work tiles for food any more. I recently saw a building that seemed to provide a % increase in food. I think it was the "Rain Dance" building. What if we converted many of the buildings that provide food to a % rater than the whole :food: they now produce.

Naturally in the longer term I would expect hunter camp buildings to produce x% of food produced from the camp improvements but having them as x% of the total food produced would be a step in the right direction. Sound right?

It will be a lot of work and if it fails we need to back it out.
 
I think I may have a solution to this and the one about not having to work tiles for food any more. I recently saw a building that seemed to provide a % increase in food. I think it was the "Rain Dance" building. What if we converted many of the buildings that provide food to a % rater than the whole :food: they now produce.

Naturally in the longer term I would expect hunter camp buildings to produce x% of food produced from the camp improvements but having them as x% of the total food produced would be a step in the right direction. Sound right?

It will be a lot of work and if it fails we need to back it out.

Sounds like a modmod first then in modular form??
 
I think I may have a solution to this and the one about not having to work tiles for food any more. I recently saw a building that seemed to provide a % increase in food. I think it was the "Rain Dance" building. What if we converted many of the buildings that provide food to a % rater than the whole :food: they now produce.

Naturally in the longer term I would expect hunter camp buildings to produce x% of food produced from the camp improvements but having them as x% of the total food produced would be a step in the right direction. Sound right?

It will be a lot of work and if it fails we need to back it out.

That sounds good actually. Another thing we could do there is make the locally utilized plots with bonuses and/or particular improvements on them produce more with those buildings. I wonder if we have a tag for that already or if that's something that would need to be added to accomplish that still.
 
Sounds like a modmod first then in modular form??

I as thinking just that but then the modmod would be a module if I did it anyway:mischief:

It would basically be a mod containing the buildings with a -:food: to match the original then the % on it.

That sounds good actually. Another thing we could do there is make the locally utilized plots with bonuses and/or particular improvements on them produce more with those buildings. I wonder if we have a tag for that already or if that's something that would need to be added to accomplish that still.

I don't think we do. All we have is a requirement for for a bonus or a feature to be in the vicinity of the city.
 
I as thinking just that but then the modmod would be a module if I did it anyway:mischief:

It would basically be a mod containing the buildings with a -:food: to match the original then the % on it..

That would be like the "static" folder i made then in the modular area for buildings. btw what ever happened to that?? Did i put that into the core?
 
I don't think we do. All we have is a requirement for for a bonus or a feature to be in the vicinity of the city.
hmm... I will be considering adding such a (set of) tag(s) then cuz I think it'd be a great way to represent those things don't you?
 
I'll use XML Scanner to identify the buildings giving a food increase. Then woc_converter to strip out all of them and then make a module with some changes. Lets see if it works. I suppose I should wait until after the release.
 
While I like your ideas in general I wouldn´t want to see all those +x:food: changed to +%:food: just to give those dessert or mountain towns also a chance to grow. But having just a few of the +x:food: buildings would definitely be enough.

I was never going to do all if them. The herd definitely and hunting ones maybe as we said it would be better if these added food in proportion to the number of camp improvements in the vicinity but we can't do that yet.
 
I'd suggest we simply cut out the +5% per population past any point. Don't see good cause for it really and it's ruining the gold and food balance in the mod. Might be the single biggest flaw we have in the whole balance structure the more I think about it.
I'd also like us to really consider this action. This I believe really hurts the equation.
 
There is a mechanism that says x food is need to grow to the next population size. I don't know where it is but I think that should be looked at to see if we can "fix" the rapid growth at the higher end of things.
 
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