Nobles' Club CXXXIX: Stalin of Russia

dalamb

dalamb

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May 9, 2006
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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Stalin of Russia, whom we last played in NC XCIV; we last played the Russians under Catherine in NC CXXVII.
The Russians start with Hunting and Mining.
  • Traits: Stalin is Aggressive and Industrious. AGG means faster barracks and drydocks; melee and gunpowder units start with Combat I, which, in addition to making the units stronger, allows promotions like Cover and Shock right out of the barracks. IND means faster wonders, including national ones like Heroic Epic (for warmongers) and Oxford University (for long games such as space race).
  • The UB: The Research Institute, a Laboratory that gives 2 free scientists, which boost late-game :science: if you're going for a space race (or high-tech late game war).

  • The UU: The Cossack, a Cavalry unit that gets +50% versus mounted units. The Cavalry are a powerful UU in their time period already, as Horse Archers are in theirs.
And the start:

Spoiler map details :
Medium and small, chosen leaders.
Spoiler edits :
Added several hills and the pigs to make this a good production capital. Made sure each AI had some sort of strategic resource (metals, horses, or elephants) reasonably nearby.
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number of stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.
Click to expand...
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 139 Stalin Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

Attachments

  • NC 139 Stalin.zip
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SIP seems stronger to me. 1W gets the sheep but loses an FP, kills a forest and wastes a turn.

As for the leader, he seems half good and half poor:
  • IND is a good trait, but AGG sucks.
  • Cossacks can be nice, but the UB is completely worthless.
  • Mining is a good tech, Hunting (and the scout that comes with it) a waste. For the higher levels, at least it means Archery is easy to get if there's no strategic resource nearby.
 
gave it quick spin on monarch
Spoiler :
settled 1W, guess SIP would have been better, tech path a bit unsual at least for me as did not selftech BW something like AH->Agri->Wheel->Pottery->Writing->Alpha->Currency
lot of relative good land&lazy play resulted that waited till 1200adish till taking out opponents with Cuirs (think I had like 13 cities and they had like 2 proper cities each + 2 bad cities) now 1270AD and game pretty much over as other continent is so backwards, about wonders only build TGlib, MoM & Taj + Colussus&Pantheon but those were ment to fail
 
gonna try this on emperor and use binary research for the first time ever.
 
There is no reason to consider spending a turn to move 1W here. For the sheep? Because wet corn, hill pigs and four floodplains aren't enough food?
 
sheep are nice for early cottage grower so no need to ahve it in moscow's BFC. I am tempted for wonderspaming/settled specialist powerful buearo commerce/production capitol. Build early wonders in cap using food + hills, setup sheep city to grow FP coittages for futyure use, pomp up great people :p
 
Immortal, no huts/events. To 1280 BC

Spoiler :

I decided to SIP. I met Hanny and Freddy and discovered their lands in the S. There is a lot of land to expand in the N and SE. Hanny is cut off from most of the continent, but Freddy can settle to the SE with galleys. The tech path went Ag>AH>BW>Fish>Sail>Mas>Writing. I went for the food first, knowing that if I have settle close to Moscow, I could share the food, which I did. I then made for the GLH, build in the St. Peters, which I shared the corn to grow it to size. A few chops and whipping a lighthouse into the GLH as I got masonry, and I got it. Now I just have to start spamming coastal cities.

Moscow is a production powerhouse, as Dalamb wanted. Since there is a lot of land, I made for the great wall. I didn't have too much trouble with barbarians. I had some just before I got the wall. Cu is nearby, but I haven't settle it yet. With a few chops, Moscow got the great wall in like 9-10 turns. Not to shabby with no stone.

Nov is sharing the pigs to work quite a few of the hills around it. It does need some culture, as its under some pressure from one of Freddy's cities atm.

The main problem is going to be happiness until monarchy. There is some calendar resources as well, but that's a bit off as well.

Future plans would be to probably go for alpha next after I finish writing. I don't know if Freddy or Hanny would get it soon. Hanny might, so I will probably go for either alpha or aest for trade bait. Most of my cities are going to be on the coast, to get the best use out of GLH.

Some pics:

GLH:
Spoiler :
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GW:
Spoiler :
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Empire at the moment:
Spoiler :
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IND means Immortal+ can get some quick fail gold and let us be competitive for early sling shots and Wonders. AGG usually sucks but with a barracks cover Warriors can hold there own.

Hunt/Min has lots of strong potential. You're guaranteed food and chops in 2 techs which is quite strong. Alternately, if Sheep/Pig are present this allows for a much quicker Alpha and backfilling of techs.

I'm playing Immortal as we speak. Will post screenie or save at 1000 AD........I settled 1W for the huge food/production potential which is great for Wonderspam/Mids/Settle.
 
1W gets the food out of the primary ring, which makes it a lot easier to share those tiles. I'm going to load this up on Imm and see how it goes.
 
Didn't feel like moving was a great option here, so SIP. Played almost 60 turns on Immortal.
Spoiler :
Start was a bit iffy as I couldn't decide whether to go for AH or BW after Farming. Did a turn of BW, then saw yet another AH resource when scouting, so changed.

No horse. Arse!

BW.... No copper fantastically near either, and in a different direction than I intended to settle, as I wanted to grab the west before Hannibal could. But I need barb defense so had to go east for city 3. City 2 was placed on the PH south of the capital, borrowing the pig and (eventually) grabbing gems. Frederick was en route, so I beat him there by ~2 turns.

Around 2500 there was a chance to workersteal. Not sure it was a great idea as Frederick and Hannibal are far from friends, but I did anyway. Parked him on a forested hill near Hanny's capital for a few turns, then took peace.

Wanted to try for the Oracle given we're industrious, but it looks a very bleak chance now. Research is too slow, but getting MC would be pretty good here. I'll try to continue a bit further, though not sure how much I can play today.


 
To 1775 BC:
Spoiler :
Went Agr > AH > BW > Wheel > Pott > Myst > Med > Priest > Writ, and somewhere in there popped Masonry from a hut -- so after several warriors and workers and a settler, I built the Great Wall and am working on the Oracle while my workers hook up copper from St Petersburg (settled east near the sheep and coppper). I plan to take out Frederick with axemen; Berlin will be a great GP farm. Not sure about Hannibal.

The situation:
Spoiler most of the known world :

Spoiler a dotmap :
I think light green is the obvious place for the just-finished 2nd settler, to pick up floodplains and get more commerce. Blue near the gems is the game's suggestion, but I don't expect to have IW for a while. Maroon would be for blocking Hannibal, but aside from that it doesn't seem like a good site.

I am currently teching Aesthetics for trade bait with Hannibal, but am not sure that's the right move -- since at monarch and with his weak territory I don't know if Hannibal is going to have much to trade. Maybe I should be going for CoL instead.

Once copper is hooked up in a couple of turns, and Moscow has oracle'd MC, I expect Moscow and St. Pete's to grind out axemen and go straight for Berlin. Hamburg would be a secondary target; it's not in a great location until I can clear jungle and build cottages.
Comments on city placement welcome; I'm fairly sure other Nobles will want suggestions too.
 
Observations from some posted games:

Spoiler :
I'm a little curious about most people's wonder strategy. To me the GLH makes perfect sense since it's a medium and small. There's a lot of room for coastal cities. I've some exploring with a galley and workboats and there's a lot of islands too. The only downside to the GLH is that the lucrative trade routes is a bit dependent on the expansion rates of the neighbors. In my game, Hanny and Freddy are expanding slow. Especially Freddy, whose stuck at 4 cities for a while now.


@dalamb
Spoiler :
I settled your green spot 1E. Probably a waste of a FP, but I wanted the option to steal some hills from Moscow as well as work cottages for it. I probably wouldn't settle the maroon site, but then again I got the GLH, so I'm less willing to settle too many landlocked cities. I left the SW for Hanny and Freddy, focusing on coastal spots. I settled St Pete 2S1W on the coast. But then I wanted the GLH asap as well. I used the corn to grow it and work a few hills. Freddy beat me to your blue site, so I settled it 3 W, stealing the gems with culture.

As for Hanny's tech rate, in my game he got alpha a few turns before I got aest, so his tech rate is fine in my game. He's got a few techs on me too atm as well.
 
Immortal > Standard > No Hunts
Spoiler :
Settled 1W (best spot for my early game direction). Tech path went AH > Wrt > Alpha > Priesthood with some wasted worker turns!!.......but this tech path gives great potential to grab 3 Big, early Wonders. You can't tech Bw, Agr, Whl, and tech through Priest and to Sailing yourself.....and if you beelined Oracle and got MC there's no guarantee anyone would have Alpha yet. Traded for everything else little except Masonry. Started worker first, barracks, and then grew to happy cap while making warriors. Next came Library, 2 scientist, followed by a Settler and worker.

Settled St. Petersburg (2nd city) after Alpha on coast (TGLH). I then squeezed out a 2nd Settler (Novgrod) before grabbing the Oracle (MC), a 3rd Settler (Rostlov), and with a forge chopped out the Mids. From this point the land was blocked off and then I just focused on expanding while teching towards LIT (TGL from Engineer [2nd gperson]), then directly to Astro > Rifling.

Additional wonders were Hanging Gardens and Taj. Hanni, Fred, and myself were all in Confucis from very early and all at pleased. Once I finally met the other AIs I made the necessary resource/tech trades and have just started 2 wars (Hatty joined 1).

Almost all cities have harbors and as of date, no Custom Houses yet. Besides my Capital I have no Markets, aqueducts, grocers, universities, or observatories.

So the screenies below are my Capital right before I trade for SM, then my Empire, followed by the tech situation. I try to start my Cuir/Cav war in the next 8-10 turns and should be able to capture around 9-12 cities while Capitulating them. After that I plan to either call it game won or finish it off with space..........seeing how I already have another GE saved for MINING.
 
I like the look of this start. Will play it on Immortal Normal NHNE, no write-up this time. :p

I see no reason to move; it was said that the gain when moving a settler should be obvious if not substantial - I don't see it here. 2 hammer city tile in both cases, trade FP for sheep (as it has been said, that sheep can 2nd or 3rd city take), Agri will be 1st research in both cases and 1W would loose a turn while moving worker to the corn, thus having it online 2T later. All in all, moving settler will get you (maybe) unnoticeable better capital in the long run, but will get you slower start. And that's a no in my book.
 
I gave this a game a spin on EMP/NORM/NHNE.
Played sloppy and a too long turnset up until 600BC (91turns)
Still in a decent position, because...
Spoiler :
I grabbed a very late GLH:p
Currently at six cities and the two neighbours are only at 3.
Plan is to settle at least 9 cities depending on the land quality and getting siege before going hostile. Have partially built the Mids but only for fail gold purpose
 

Attachments

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Immortal Difficulty, Normal Speed

To Turn 50:
Spoiler :
Seeing no reason to move I settled in place. The only thing that I kind of considered for five seconds was moving up to the coast for a certain Great Lighthouse. But that would involve giving up the pigs and corn and being Industrious I was pretty sure I could get it in a second city.

Tech path went: Agriculture --> Animal Husbandry --> The Wheel --> Pottery --> Bronze Working --> Fishing.

I wanted the Great Lighthouse for obvious reasons, but decided that a detour to pottery was worth it for cottages on the flood plains. Other than the great lighthouse fishing and sailing were kind of useless here and I didn't want to get stuck with no cottages for the first 50 turns of the game and also no lighthouse should I get beaten to it.

The neighbors are mostly safe. Neither declare at please and both were expanding really slowly. Barbs were potentially a concern but I was pretty careful with fogbusting and didn't run in to too many problems.

Tentative plan is to grow peacefully until I can't get good city sites and then declare war in whatever era I find myself in.



To Turn 75:
Spoiler :
Techs: Sailing --> Masonry --> Mysticism --> Writing

Fairly uneventful turnset. I expanded to the floodplains site to the southwest where I plan to put the National Epic. The Great Lighthouse is almost finished at which point I'll begin settling.

To Turn 115 (1 AD):
Spoiler :
Techs: Alphabet --> Iron Working (trade) --> Polytheism --> Priesthood --> Monarchy --> Mathematics (trade) --> Meditation (trade) --> Currency --> Construction (trade) --> Aesthetics

The Great Lighthouse is so powerful on maps like this. I settled on the island to the northeast for overseas trade routes. Settled more cities. Revolted to Monarchy and built warriors for happy. Fred and Hannibal are teching way slow. There's no religion on our continent either which is slightly annoying, but not the end of the world.





Plan going forward is to take the barb city to my southeast and settle a few other cities. Neither of my neighbors seem to be plotting so I'm not worried about them yet, despite not being pleased with either of them. I'll finish off Literature since I've got marble and am industrious. Then it's a quick Great Library and National Epic. I'll try and put them both in Rostov (or should I put them both in the capital?).

One option is to bulb up the Astro line. Benefits include international trade routes, potentially more useful AIs who have resources to trade, cheap forges are on the way. The other is the more standard Civil Service, Philosophy, Liberalism route. The benefits of this one are buro for my strong capital and possibly one shared religion for our continent.

I think I'm liking the first option more. I'll do that concurrently with cats, trebs, and eventually maces and go for an early domination/conquest.
 
Totally escaped me that this is medium and small, and therefore GLH is a great wonder to go for. A horrible hangover today so probably won't play, but it's bound to be too late to go for GLH in my game, sadly. Maybe I should restart. Turn 57 and lack fishing, sailing and masonry. When does it usually go on immortal?
 
Due to the losing streak I've been into for several months, I don't feel confident to try this on Emperor. I'll go Monarch/Normal/NHNE.

Most probably I'll just SiP.
 
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