Science Overflow Bug is an Exploit

leif erikson · Mar 15, 2014

The staff has found a way to detect the Science Overflow Bug and differentiate between accidental and intentional use. We have decided to ban the use of this technique as an exploit within the software.

For a detailed description of how it works to help you avoid it, please see this thread.

Using this exploit will cause your game to be disallowed in the results.

klaskeren · Mar 16, 2014

can we please elaborate on what is accidental use? Sometimes for example when you go for a science game, and you tech all the upper techs and leave masonry iron working and stuff for later, then you can have really high science when you tech these things. Im not talking about bulbing GS, but simply teching these techs can sometimes result in a little overflow inflation, will this be counted as accidental use?

klaskeren · Mar 16, 2014

Could we possibly consider using a mod as a standard for these games, to prevent it? Or will it be too difficult to enforce on everyone?

Ribannah · Mar 16, 2014

For players who are not aware of how this bug works, it will be hard to avoid it completely.

Tabarnak · Mar 16, 2014

leif erikson said:
The staff has found a way to detect the Science Overflow Bug and differentiate between accidental and intentional use.

Ribannah said:
For players who are not aware of how this bug works, it will be hard to avoid it completely.

I'm confident that the staff can see the difference. Great news!

leif erikson · Mar 16, 2014

klaskeren said:
can we please elaborate on what is accidental use? Sometimes for example when you go for a science game, and you tech all the upper techs and leave masonry iron working and stuff for later, then you can have really high science when you tech these things. Im not talking about bulbing GS, but simply teching these techs can sometimes result in a little overflow inflation, will this be counted as accidental use?

If we see what we think is a deliberate use of the exploit, we will send a Private Message before the results are published to ask the player about it. We will take your answer into consideration in our decision to include or exclude your game.

Ribannah · Mar 16, 2014

I think many players would want to avoid an accidental use of the exploit, too. This is a case where I would welcome a mod. Although it is mostly needed for deity games.

da_Vinci · Mar 17, 2014

It looks like the "savings" from multiple civs knowing the tech was operationalized as an up multiplier on beakers available to spend, instead of a discount on beaker cost of techs. If one re-wrote the code to reduce the beaker cost (and remove the up multiplier), would that eliminate the bug/exploit?

dV

IronfighterXXX · Mar 18, 2014

I think we should set some rules when we can actually bulb GS.

For example, let's look at screenshot I think everyone would agree that in this situation, assuming that I didn't discover sailing and optics bulb GS on scientific theory and lock sailing and optics is exploit. But what about bulb sailing directly and lock optics and compass? What about bulb scientific theory and lock steel and gunpowder? Are we only allowed lock more expensive tech (what if we are behind in tech and they are also discovered by some civs)? What if in this situation I just need astronomy for observatories.

To summarize my point here is that the fear of disqualification when there is no clear rules can lead to non-optimal play. If this is possible like others I'd rather definitely install the mod to prevent Science Overflow Bug and to be able to play the way I want than to rely on somewhat arbitrary decisions. Of course it would be best to receive a some final patch from Firaxis, but nothing unfortunately indicate it.

Memoryjar · Mar 18, 2014

I think in this situation exploit will have a little effect (or I didn't understand exploit mechanics). 4 turns for steel, it's very long.

Even with an unintentional exploit you can't have a final victory enough fast to be it first tier.

leif erikson · Mar 18, 2014

IronfighterXXX said:
I think we should set some rules when we can actually bulb GS.

For example, let's look at screenshot I think everyone would agree that in this situation, assuming that I didn't discover sailing and optics bulb GS on scientific theory and lock sailing and optics is exploit. But what about bulb sailing directly and lock optics and compass? What about bulb scientific theory and lock steel and gunpowder? Are we only allowed lock more expensive tech (what if we are behind in tech and they are also discovered by some civs)? What if in this situation I just need astronomy for observatories.

To summarize my point here is that the fear of disqualification when there is no clear rules can lead to non-optimal play. If this is possible like others I'd rather definitely install the mod to prevent Science Overflow Bug and to be able to play the way I want than to rely on somewhat arbitrary decisions. Of course it would be best to receive a some final patch from Firaxis, but nothing unfortunately indicate it.

My advice is to play the way you want and, if we detect anything, we will be in contact with you.

The last thing we want to do is make up a bunch of rules that require enforcement. You know how it works, so you should know how to avoid its intentional use.

Hammer Rabbi · Mar 18, 2014

The accidental uses of this bug have been around since at least GnK if not Vanilla. It was only revealed to us recently (3 or 4 months ago) from a new forum member who shared its real exploitation with us. Just play as though you never knew about that real exploitative use of this and you won't need to worry about exclusions. I know, it is easier said than done, but you have to alter your play style significantly to make the game-breaking uses of this bug. Basically, play to your maximum skill level as though it was still 4 months ago, haha. I hope this helps ease the concerns about this.

Thanks,
HR

tommynt · Mar 19, 2014

for difficulty lvls up to immortal this "exploit" really does like nothing.

All it does is help bad deity players catch up.

Ribannah · Mar 20, 2014

I'm not worried about the poor player that exploits this bug to race through the ages with a half-built empire.

What worries me is the good player that exploits this bug to gain 2-3 turns of free science several times during their otherwise normal game.

I don't really understand the opposition to finding a solution.

joncnunn · Mar 24, 2014

Huh, it looks to me like it's only significant if either:

1. You have a series of 1 turn techs.
2. You bulb a GS with a research path currently set to techs so cheap your GS provided enough beakers for two or three such techs.

So it looks easy to avoid accidental use of this by:

1. After finishing researching a tech you notice a tech can be researched in a single turn, research that tech immediately; instead of putting if off to the point that the tech past it can also be researched in 1 turn.

2. When bulbling with GS, have an expensive techs selected as your next tech.

Alphons Rodulfo · Mar 25, 2014

joncnunn said:
When bubbling with GS, ...

The mental picture that was created when I read this made laugh out loud.

casualplayer · Mar 26, 2014

Should just rule that Great Scientists have to be planted as Academies for GotM or bulbed the turn they are created, just for consistency's sake. Or potentially gifted if you were Sweden, I guess.

At what pace can my inland empire tech up the Sailing line if I want to get Astronomy? If the luxes aren't there and I'm not interested in Pyramids or Colossus I frequently blow off the Mining line until I feel like I want to start building Workshops; in the case of those games one bulb may get me all the way to Physics, maybe even Printing Press, 1 Turn a tech. Do I have to deviate to empty the overflow beakers? Do I have to just not bulb?

Sorry the slop game design is putting you guys in this position. I appreciate the work you do setting up these GotM.

pvtjava · Mar 26, 2014

casualplayer said:
Should just rule that Great Scientists have to be planted as Academies for GotM or bulbed the turn they are created, just for consistency's sake. Or potentially gifted if you were Sweden, I guess.

None of those rules or actions actually stop or trigger the exploit on their own.

At what pace can my inland empire tech up the Sailing line if I want to get Astronomy? If the luxes aren't there and I'm not interested in Pyramids or Colossus I frequently blow off the Mining line until I feel like I want to start building Workshops; in the case of those games one bulb may get me all the way to Physics, maybe even Printing Press, 1 Turn a tech. Do I have to deviate to empty the overflow beakers? Do I have to just not bulb?

The exploit is triggered by creating a large amount of overflow, such as bulbing GS for the cheap techs. Or waiting until a expensive tech is nearly finished, bulbing, and then going back to cheap techs.

Sorry the slop game design is putting you guys in this position. I appreciate the work you do setting up these GotM.

I share your appreciation for everyone involved in GotM. :goodjob:

One grey area on this is the possibility of creating large overflow on cheap techs with your single-turn science output. I'm not sure if there's a point where that becomes an exploit.

Hammer Rabbi · Mar 26, 2014

casualplayer said:
Should just rule that Great Scientists have to be planted as Academies for GotM or bulbed the turn they are created, just for consistency's sake. Or potentially gifted if you were Sweden, I guess.

At what pace can my inland empire tech up the Sailing line if I want to get Astronomy? If the luxes aren't there and I'm not interested in Pyramids or Colossus I frequently blow off the Mining line until I feel like I want to start building Workshops; in the case of those games one bulb may get me all the way to Physics, maybe even Printing Press, 1 Turn a tech. Do I have to deviate to empty the overflow beakers? Do I have to just not bulb?

Sorry the slop game design is putting you guys in this position. I appreciate the work you do setting up these GotM.

The incidental/accidental uses have been around since at least GnK. If you've never intentionally tried to use this exploit then typical surges through sailing/mining won't be an issue. We aren't excluding results for doing the same things you did 6 months ago.

We do know when a line has been crossed though. To intentionally make use of this exploit requires early planning and strategy (and Difficulty level too) and can't simply be "fallen into accidentally". Our new utility points to many indicators for this, not just one.

Thanks for your concerns,
HR

consentient · Aug 4, 2014

What exactly is this 'exploit' being discussed? I see a lot of complicated references, but nowhere does it seem to be explained exactly what it is. Could someone lay it out for me, idiot-proof? Please forgive my ignorance.

[EDIT: Nevermind, I found a video that actually SHOWS it.]

Science Overflow Bug is an Exploit

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