Inaccuracies (historical, scientific, logic...)

This thread is for everything this is not correct in civ from a non-gameplay wise. Stuff like impossible building chains etc belong in the bug thread. Here, post stuff like Yudishtira:

Frederick I Barbarossa (German hero) lived in the 12th century, but requires Nationalism (extremely late Renaissance) to build... Mixup with Frederick the Great maybe - I confess I used to think (and to some extent still do) that "Frederick the Great" refers to Barbarossa.

And I agree about Pyrite. Pyrite is one kind of iron ore (as is haematite).

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Please report more!

all the various animal riders. really theirs no reason for them to exist and for that matter the horsemen should be later in the technology tree.

All the resource prerequisites of berry farms and bug gatherers.

climat said:

All the resource prerequisites of berry farms and bug gatherers.

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How is it any more inaccurate than any of the other bonus buildings? All of them have resource A + resource B = a new building. If they were to be accurate you would need a resource for EVERY building.

Redwallzyl said:

all the various animal riders. really theirs no reason for them to exist and for that matter the horsemen should be later in the technology tree.

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So your Ok with bear riders being in the prehistoric era but not horse riders?

Not to mention there are plenty of nomadic horse cultures across the world that ride horses but do not have sedentary lifestyle or agriculture. If it was put any farther down the tech tree it would be after those techs, which would make no sense too be required. Why should you need to learn agriculture or sedentary lifestyle of your riding on hoses in a nomadic culture?

Hydromancerx said:

How is it any more inaccurate than any of the other bonus buildings? All of them have resource A + resource B = a new building. If they were to be accurate you would need a resource for EVERY building.

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But Hydro, we could (and should) some Bugs that don't require Silk but a combination of Grains.

Hydromancerx said:

Why should you need to learn agriculture or sedentary lifestyle of your riding on hoses in a nomadic culture?

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Maybe for the same reason that you have to know Sericulture to learn Space Stations . I have no idea if horses were actually used this early or not. If there are sources that have strong evidence that horses were used much later, then we should consider that.

The bear/deer/etc animal riders are a part of the 'Alternate Timeline' module aren't they? If you don't like them you can just deactivate that module, can't you?
I haven't myself since I like being able to have tamed rhinos and so on. Feels kinda cool, and I actually hope it gets expanded on in the future ^^

Hydromancerx said:

How is it any more inaccurate than any of the other bonus buildings? All of them have resource A + resource B = a new building. If they were to be accurate you would need a resource for EVERY building.

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The prehistoric Bug Catcher and Berry Bushes acknowledge that edible bugs and berries are everywhere. Then suddenly at some arbitrary tech, they all migrate to be near silkworms and grapes respectively.

The geological resource combo buildings are nearly as bad, but they mostly relate to substances that really are rare. Certain berries otoh (blackberry probably the extreme example) and bugs (butterflies/moths, caterpillars, beetles, spiders, ants) aren't rare - they are ubiquitous. While others are more rare but nevertheless have a range that is hugely independent of silkworms (eg. scarabs/dungbeetles) and grapes (eg. gooseberries). Silkworms themselves require a berry bush for building their cocoons on!

For common cases, a resource/terrain combo can still work, but it needs to have some OR elements as well as ANDs. For example, dungbeetle could be (Elephant OR Sheep OR Cow OR Pig....) AND (Desert OR Dunes OR Plains). That's just off the top of my head, but it illustrates that combos don't have to make individual/generic common bugs so rare that most maps don't have any.

Maybe we need to adjust the civic republic a little bit. At the moment you are able to run a republic under any circumstances. its way more poverfull than monarchy ore dictatorship. If you reach the middle ages most players and AI will be republiks. But keep in mind that during most part of history until the american and frensh revolution, rebublics were smal city states ( ancient greek city states, Venice, genua) ore regions with a relativley small poppulation. Its because the dessision making costs are high. every decision is based on discussions and ervery relevant group has to agree with it. So everything needs time. in a small area its not that bad because the advantages of a smart compromise (wich is the result of an decision making progress) beat the disadvanteges of the long time it takes to be created. But in bigger countries the time you need increase. The group of relevant persons who have to agree with the decision is higher and if they live in disstand parts of the nation you have to send hordes of couriers between the capital and the other major cities. Not just to ask for their opinions but to proclaim new laws. For this you need a efficent infrastructure system. well-maintanced roads, railroads, telegraph systems and so on. Things that obviously don't exist until early modern times so maintance costs for a rebublik were very high in large countries. Because of this most european countries in the middle ages where monarchies. At least a king can react quickly without wasting time fo asking everyone wich is an advantages in large poorly develped countries. So monarchy should have lesser maintance and no unhappynes cap like in C2C while republik should have higher maintance costs

Horses were ridden on that early, yes. However the evidence ( see argument in different thread... on my phone so I'm not looking it up now) indicates that they were not ridden in combat until the end of the chariot era. It can be argued that nomadic cultures that learned how to use ( I.e. mostly train the horses not to spook in combat) is what spelled the doom of the chariot.

i was talking about removing the outer riders too. having a fantasy unit option box would be nice.

Faustmouse said:

But Hydro, we could (and should) some Bugs that don't require Silk but a combination of Grains.

Maybe for the same reason that you have to know Sericulture to learn Space Stations . I have no idea if horses were actually used this early or not. If there are sources that have strong evidence that horses were used much later, then we should consider that.

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1. But many of the grains combos are already taken by bonus grain crops like Millet, Oats, Quinoa, etc. Plus Silk is the only insect resource we have. Just like Grapes are the closet resource to berries we have.

2. Ironically I think if you did not know about making silk I do not think you would have the advanced fibers to make various space suits to go in the Space Station. If I am not mistaken kevlar was needed to make the space suits.

Yudishtira said:

The prehistoric Bug Catcher and Berry Bushes acknowledge that edible bugs and berries are everywhere. Then suddenly at some arbitrary tech, they all migrate to be near silkworms and grapes respectively.

The geological resource combo buildings are nearly as bad, but they mostly relate to substances that really are rare. Certain berries otoh (blackberry probably the extreme example) and bugs (butterflies/moths, caterpillars, beetles, spiders, ants) aren't rare - they are ubiquitous. While others are more rare but nevertheless have a range that is hugely independent of silkworms (eg. scarabs/dungbeetles) and grapes (eg. gooseberries). Silkworms themselves require a berry bush for building their cocoons on!

For common cases, a resource/terrain combo can still work, but it needs to have some OR elements as well as ANDs. For example, dungbeetle could be (Elephant OR Sheep OR Cow OR Pig....) AND (Desert OR Dunes OR Plains). That's just off the top of my head, but it illustrates that combos don't have to make individual/generic common bugs so rare that most maps don't have any.

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Well the various bugs were Mr Azure's idea originally I only had Apiary (for wax and honey), Silkworms (for silk) and Cochineal Beetle (for dyes). As well as Bug Catcher and Termite Mound (for the early Prehistoric boots). Personally I think we should not have the various bug buildings. Cause like you said they are everywhere. However their benifits were just to much to have everyone get every bug building. So it was limited to silk resource plus another resource.

If I had my way I would remove all of the bug buildings he added.

Hydromancerx said:

1. But many of the grains combos are already taken by bonus grain crops like Millet, Oats, Quinoa, etc. Plus Silk is the only insect resource we have. Just like Grapes are the closet resource to berries we have.

2. Ironically I think if you did not know about making silk I do not think you would have the advanced fibers to make various space suits to go in the Space Station. If I am not mistaken kevlar was needed to make the space suits.



Well the various bugs were Mr Azure's idea originally I only had Apiary (for wax and honey), Silkworms (for silk) and Cochineal Beetle (for dyes). As well as Bug Catcher and Termite Mound (for the early Prehistoric boots). Personally I think we should not have the various bug buildings. Cause like you said they are everywhere. However their benifits were just to much to have everyone get every bug building. So it was limited to silk resource plus another resource.

If I had my way I would remove all of the bug buildings he added.

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2. What about the various other Fibers like Hemp and such? And you don't need to know how to handle silk worms to know how to work with silk anyways, you could just import it.


3. Aren't you - after all - in charge of buildings? And since he left, we are good to remove them then. It's a bit sad, i liked this, but it's just too unrealistic.

So I conquered this city from the native American's in 20,000 BC or sometime around there, and I made it my capitol and renamed it. I recently took a closer look at all of my cities, and I found that Leongrad (the city) still looked distinctly native American, with a bunch of little huts and all when the rest of the cities look like traditional Russian cities. In real life the city would have been rebuilt from the ground up, the culture is already eliminated, everything is completely Russian, yet somehow the populace is enchanted to continue the traditional architecture of their predecessors?

I know absolutely nothing about the way the game works, I got Civ IV only to play this mod, and until I looked closely I didn't know each civ's cities had a different style.

SpartanDoesAcid said:

So I conquered this city from the native American's in 20,000 BC or sometime around there, and I made it my capitol and renamed it. I recently took a closer look at all of my cities, and I found that Leongrad (the city) still looked distinctly native American, with a bunch of little huts and all when the rest of the cities look like traditional Russian cities. In real life the city would have been rebuilt from the ground up, the culture is already eliminated, everything is completely Russian, yet somehow the populace is enchanted to continue the traditional architecture of their predecessors?

I know absolutely nothing about the way the game works, I got Civ IV only to play this mod, and until I looked closely I didn't know each civ's cities had a different style.

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It is part of the Assimilation mod which is necessary for other parts of this mod. It means that captured cities retain many things to do with their original culture. Art style is one. We have plans changing the way this works so that city will look Russian but still have other cultural aspects from before. That is a big project however.

Faustmouse said:

2. What about the various other Fibers like Hemp and such? And you don't need to know how to handle silk worms to know how to work with silk anyways, you could just import it.


3. Aren't you - after all - in charge of buildings? And since he left, we are good to remove them then. It's a bit sad, i liked this, but it's just too unrealistic.

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2. I am not sure you point on this. I agree with the Silk Fibers all you need to know is how to weave them. Which is why its a separate resource than Silkworms.

3. Last time I tired to remove building from MrAzure SO got mad and told me to put them back in. I would be happy to remove them if I knew I would not have to just put them back in again.

Hydromancerx said:

3. Last time I tired to remove building from MrAzure SO got mad and told me to put them back in. I would be happy to remove them if I knew I would not have to just put them back in again.

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Isn't DH the new "boss" anyways But still, it is weird that we can't touch stuff from a modder that when away, even when it is "buggy"...

So the bug buildings are not right. Hydro wants to turn them off or delete them but others want them fixed.

Is anyone wiling to work on fixing the bug buildings? It is only XML. If not we can turn them off in the MLF file until MrAzure comes back or someone has time to work on them.

@DH

I want to turn them off, not delete them. Just in case. I would not turn off all his building though, just the bug related ones.

EDIT: Looks like its all in modular folder. In that case anyone can go disable the folder in the MLF controls. If you DH or Faustmouse want to disable them then be my guest.

Though the Bugs resource may need to be moved to the resource mod folder since I think its still used by other buildings.

Hydromancerx said:

How is it any more inaccurate than any of the other bonus buildings? All of them have resource A + resource B = a new building. If they were to be accurate you would need a resource for EVERY building.

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Well, if you ask me, the "requiring two resources for plants" system is arbitrary and problematic.
It ignores natural habitats, and cultivated terrains or cultivatable climates of plants in the real world many times. Also, requiring two vicinity resources makes it nearly impossible to build them. The possibilty is simply too low compared to the real world. Also, terrains/features where the resources can be placed in the game map were not considered for choosing required resources, so sometimes it may be impossible to build some buildings. Your determination on "not overlapping" was not helpful for this matter, either.

It may be better if they require some terrains or features, instead of one of the two resources.

Hydromancerx said:

@DH

I want to turn them off, not delete them. Just in case. I would not turn off all his building though, just the bug related ones.

EDIT: Looks like its all in modular folder. In that case anyone can go disable the folder in the MLF controls. If you DH or Faustmouse want to disable them then be my guest.

Though the Bugs resource may need to be moved to the resource mod folder since I think its still used by other buildings.

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I think bug catcher can give bug resources if the buildings are turned off. It should not be obsolete after Agriculture in this case, though.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

So the bug buildings are not right. Hydro wants to turn them off or delete them but others want them fixed.

Is anyone wiling to work on fixing the bug buildings? It is only XML. If not we can turn them off in the MLF file until MrAzure comes back or someone has time to work on them.

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They aren't broken, it is just too rare to build them compared to the real world. Just change their prereqs and they should be fine. Climat,do you want to make up some prereqs for them?