SA 1 - Pericles - Staline - Saladin - Hannibal

tijup

Warlord
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
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The Schizophrenic Asylum serie goal is to have fun while playing the same map with different leaders, and see how various players ar
e able to leverage leaders's trait on that map. It will help new players, and more confirmed ones, to see how to leverage traits, UU
or UB while they are playing themselves, the same leader or an other one.
Players may choose to replay that same map with a different leader, to experience a different gameplay.

Here is our starting position:

SA_1_zpsb0f7f7da.png


And our chosen leaders:

Spoiler Stalin of Russia :

STALIN of RUSSIA, starting techs are hunting and mining

Stalin.jpg


STALIN is industrious/aggressive
industrious : Wonder production increased by 50%. Double production speed of Forge.
aggressive : Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder unites. Double production speed of Baracks and Drydock.

its UB is RESEARCH_INSTITUTE a Laboratory that gives 2 free scientists, which boost late-game :science: if you're going for a
space race (or high-tech late game war).
ResearchInstitute.jpg


its UU is COSSACK a Cavalry unit that gets +50% versus mounted units. The Cavalry are a powerful UU in their time period alre
ady, as Horse Archers are in theirs.
Cossack.jpg



Spoiler Saladin of Arabia :

SALADIN of ARABIA, starting techs are mysticism and the wheel

Saladin.jpg


SALADIN is protective/spiritual
protective : Archery and gunpowder units receive Drill I and City Garrison I automatically. Double production speed of Walls
and Castle.
spiritual : No anarchy from civics or religion changes. Double production speed of Temples.

its UB is MADRASSA a Library that gets double :culture: and can run two Priest specialists. Extra culture is always a good th
ing (especially on an early building that doubles its culture after 1000 years), and the Madrassa can also help fuel a prophet-based
economy if you feel like doing something different.
Madrassa.jpg


its UU is CAMEL_ARCHER a Knight with no resource requirement and an innate 15% withdrawal chance. It's generally regarded as
one of the weaker UU's since Guilds is often a backfill tech for many players, but if you don't have Horses or Iron, it can be used
to secure those resources for a later Cuirassier or Cannon rush.
CamelArcher.jpg



Spoiler Pericles of Greece :

PERICLES of GREECE, starting techs are fishing and hunting

Pericles.jpg


PERICLES is philosophical/creative
philosophical : Great People birth rate increased by 100%. Double production speed of University.
creative : +2 :culture: per city. Double production speed of Library, Theatre and Coliseum.

its UB is ODEON a Colosseum that gives +2:) instead of +1, 2 free artists slots, and +3:culture: - a nice boost if you're going for
a cultural win.
Odeon.jpg


its UU is PHALANX An Axeman with +100% defence against chariots, the usual bane of axemen.
Phalanx.jpg



Spoiler Hannibal of Carthage :

HANNIBAL of CARTHAGE, starting techs are fishing and mining

Hannibal.jpg


HANNIBAL is financial/charismatic
financial : +1 :commerce: on plots with 2 :commerce:
charismatic : +1 :happiness: per city. -25% XP needed for unit promotions. +1 :happiness: from Monument and Broadcast Tower.

its UB is COTHON a Harbour that costs an extra 25% :hammers: (100 versus 80 on Normal speed) but gives +1 trade routes. Great
for a Trade Route Economy (TRE), especially with the Great Lighthouse and perhaps the Colossus (although as it's obsolete with Astr
onomy it's window may be very small depending on the map).
Cothon.jpg


its UU is NUMIDIAN_CAVALRY a Horse Archer with +50% versus melee units, unfortunately its base strength is 5 instead of 6.
Numidian.jpg



Spoiler map details: :

Standard map
Pangea
No edits.


Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 73 Pericles Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians: :

Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
Exit the worldbuilder.
Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
 

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The Odeon doesn't give 2 free artists... it gives 2 artist slots. Playing as Pericles here would help with a cultural victory, with the capital as a good GP farm, Philosophical, Creative helps a bit, and the Odeon helps slightly before CoL comes in.
 
It seems they are all starting with a scout, regardless if they have hunting or not.

Interesting concept though. Wish I had time to play it. :)
 
oh crap !
my bad.. I generated the map with Pericles, who was starting with a scout for sure.
I never thought of that in my scripts, bleh.

I will try to figure that out.
 
It would be a good idea to explore a little and then post your thoughts on which leader has an advantage over the others and why. Then we can get shadows to see who is right.
 
@grashopa,
I didn't post it to be my game in particular, it's a new serie of games, "a la" Noble's Club and Immortal University.
You guys are free to test any of these leaders on the same map, and compare your results / approach.
 
I suppose it makes more sense to play this on Immortal than Deity, there'll surely be more play-throughs to compare to?
 
I'm not privy to the discussion that lead to this series, and I'm not clear on what the intent is but I decided to give it a shot anyways. I haven't done a play along yet and this seemed a good one to try. I chose Saladin just because I wanted to play him, no strategic reason or whatnot.

Write-up through turn 51
Spoiler :
- Moving my scout to the hill north it revealed cows and I settled one east for a food rich capital.
- research started agriculture, then animal husbandry to get some food hooked up.
- while researching these, scout moved in a westerly circle identifying a peninsula. I popped mining from a hut on the peninsula (huts on). Scout was then sent back to the northeast where I found Ceasar on turn 16 up north. Also met Survey-man. Finished husbandry on turn 23 which shows:
Spoiler :
cbc3f79a-8004-4955-b509-86ee661bc12a_zps7fa7f552.jpg

- horses to the north near Ceasar, and though I'm still exploring I want those horses.
- scout is now moving east, curving towards the south. Turn 33 I met Pacal and had a map of the east including Survy's land. I identified my next two city spots with the horses in the north a priority.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0007_zps350b4946.jpg

- you can see my settler about to finish on T34, he was sent to the horse city along with warrior1 as an escort. Worker started a road that direction.
- after settler I built another worker in the CAP then a warrior, followed by a settler for the city marked as bureau for it's future commerce potential.
- after AH I started Writing but switched towards archery with the thought of choking Sury. This was a mistake as Sury had already soaked up the best land easterly by the time an archer got there. So I scrapped the choke plan, not really any land to kick him out of at this point. Worker steal is a possibility if a stack of workers shows up but not a priority.
- snapshot at turn 51:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0009_zpsf9b67400.jpg

- Planning on using the capital as a worker/settler pump until I have slavery then using it as the whipping post. It will probably end up as the NE.
- Damascus will get cottaged for commerce/research. I will possibly move the capital there unless a better site is found.
- Medina will pump military for now.
- I'm headed towards alphabet hoping to get there in time to trade writing. Sending the warrior2 to the northwest for more exporation. Need more workers, lots of improvements to be made and I currently only have two workers. Capital is improved to employ 5 citizens though, and roads are built to connect. I've identified a few filler cities between me and Sury, might be able to snag those other horses but there's no food source there so I don't see it as a priority.
 
To 450AD on Immortal, behold the awesome power of Numidians:

Spoiler :
No reason not to SIP. Went BW first to do a WB->worker whip opening. All those forests and decent early commerce thanks to the financial trait begs for a Numidian rush. Early tech path was:

BW->agriculture->wheel->AH->pottery->writing->HBR (900BC)->hunting->archery

Of the three horses that were revealed only the most distant one near Augustus is worth settling, which means building a settler at size 2. Having to settle a city with horses and literally nothing else instead of that excellent location (plains hill between horses and cows, excellent early production) would be a very poor start.

Shaka declares on Augustus in 1250BC, making the HA rush even stronger. Praetorians would normally stop an HA rush in it's tracks, but now the ones he manages to produce will be tied up (in fact I end up having to kill only a single wounded Praet). He also turns out to have only one source of Iron that can be pillaged on turn 2 of the war, and no bronze. There is really no hurry.

In 650BC I trade HBR to Lizzy for Alpha, having put a couple turns into it. I also get IW, myst/poly/priesthood, and sailing, which are also brokered for gold once Currency is completed (50AD, it also nets me Monarchy).

Because the capital has too much food it actually starts running 2 scientists as soon as the library is built, while still getting it's barracks and stables built. This allows me to bulb Maths in 525BC. A third city was settled 1N3E of the capital, it gets good production, claims more forest, and occasionally whips when it approaches size 5.

With many forests pre-chopped I declare war on Rome in 450BC with enough Numidians to take the first two cities and pillage his iron from the north. I won't bore you with too many details, pretty standard stuff. 5 cities total are taken, all strong enough to keep. I left Rome, the most heavily garrisoned city, to the end. Augustus built Stonehenge there, very thoughtful of him considering we're charismatic :goodjob: I kill him off completely by taking Rome in 25AD, and this is when the interesting part actually begins.

With regular HAs this would probably be where I stop. But Sury has been building wonders left and right. I nor anybody else traded HBR to him, so he has construction but still can't build his ballista elephants. He'll waste a good many hammers building catapults that never attack. He still doesn't have Feudalism. And here I am with 20 highly promoted Numidians that'll cut through his metal units and 5 captured cities all with forests to chop. His gems city can be captured on the second turn of the war, his capital on the third. He has no more than 5 units in any of his cities. He even builds the Apostolic Palace a turn before I'm ready, in a religion he's been nice enough to spread to most of my cities no less. This all adds up to me declaring on him in 225 AD. I split my stack he's caught with his pants down:

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In the two turns it takes to get within striking distance of his capital he is only able to re-inforce with chariots and a single spearman:

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Check out the sweet odds:

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Better than 50% survival. His capital is very, very nice:

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And from there on I barely even need to stop to heal, taking 3 of his last 4 cities in a handful of turns (one of which is razed). Which is important because the next AP vote is obviously to stop the war and I don't want to defy the resolution. So in 450 I leave Sury with his worst city and make peace:

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Unfortunately only 1 AI has Feudalism at this point so I can't trade for it and capitulate him. Nobody will trade me Masonry, either, so I can't make Sury give me construction for peace. But that doesn't really matter. Again because our capital has way too much food I was running 2 scientists there for pretty much the entire war, allowing me to bulb Philosophy as a monopoly tech in 400AD. So with relatively little tech trading (CoL had to be self-teched :mad: ) and 1000 years of war the tech situation is still pretty nice:

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Stats screen sorted by units/buildings/improvements built:

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The Numidians made for very low losses even against a very late second target who had metal the entire time (kills were: 44 archers, 8 axes, 7 swordsmen, 6 spearmen, 5 chariots, 4 catapults, 1 praetorian). Against Rome a good 10+ archers were killed wandering away from his cities.


I doubt even Pericles can outdo Hannibal on this map. The trait/UU combination with so many forests is just too strong. At this point I don't know if it's even worth bothering to go all the way to cuirs. Trebs might finish the game faster, but the economy might not hold out. Save is included if anybody wants to take a closer look.
 

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@MegaLurker :

Spoiler :
Not considering the good rush... :goodjob:

It's odd to have mines your most common improvement :)
You're probably missing on production by working all those mines instead of food positive tiles and then converting food to hammers.

Some of your Roman cities have 0 whip anger, can grow 2 happy pop points and work several mines.
If you ask the governor what it'd work, it'd work more food and this would probably be right.
A riverside cottage compares nicely with a plains hills mine. Working some of those instead of the dreaded plains hills mines would allow you to :
a) work more tiles ;
b) use food to hammers conversion ;
c) get some extra commerce to fight the growing maintenance.

(So it's not only :hammers: that mines lose you.)

Farms are even more productive but can't help nearly as much to pay for an army.

Mines are best worked at happy cap, when you don't want to whip the city, or when a city has a food surplus so high you can't handle it.

:)

ps : not sure when you got your hands on Monarchy... maybe you should have considered revolting into HR ;) It seems you focused a tad too much on training Numidian Cavs for your own good...
 
@MegaLurker :

Spoiler :
Not considering the good rush... :goodjob:

It's odd to have mines your most common improvement :)
You're probably missing on production by working all those mines instead of food positive tiles and then converting food to hammers.

Some of your Roman cities have 0 whip anger, can grow 2 happy pop points and work several mines.
If you ask the governor what it'd work, it'd work more food and this would probably be right.
A riverside cottage compares nicely with a plains hills mine. Working some of those instead of the dreaded plains hills mines would allow you to :
a) work more tiles ;
b) use food to hammers conversion ;
c) get some extra commerce to fight the growing maintenance.

(So it's not only :hammers: that mines lose you.)

Farms are even more productive but can't help nearly as much to pay for an army.

Mines are best worked at happy cap, when you don't want to whip the city, or when a city has a food surplus so high you can't handle it.

:)

ps : not sure when you got your hands on Monarchy... maybe you should have considered revolting into HR ;) It seems you focused a tad too much on training Numidian Cavs for your own good...

There was certainly some tunnel-vision happening during the wars, good call :lol: I think there was some reasoning behind working so many mines. Many of them are riverside, and there were so many forests being chopped that it was hard to time 2-pop whips on the Numidians. In that save CoL has been finished so I think more distant cities haven't been whipped/are working mines in anticipation of 3-pop whipping courthouses as soon as possible. Didn't bother revolting into Monarchy because the Pyramids were soon to be captured, at which point it would be Police state (if it was feasible to take a third target....it definitely wasn't :crazyeye:) or Rep for the obvious scientist-powered recovery.

But you're absolutely right that my tile micromanagement is poor there. I get very sloppy on Immortal. I actually had two workers stuck in the tundra north of Rome for over a dozen turns that I just ignored :blush:
 
Interesting game you got there, oh lurking one. I'm guessing that the AIs are not trading much due to personality clash and religious differences, because no longbows so late into the ADs is very surprising. And there are some fast techers in there too.

As for tunnel vision, I think we're all the same when we get into war mode and the red mist of battle lust descends...the finer points of micro tend to go out the window somewhat in the frenzy of bloodletting. :lol:
 
Yup, its all the same "kill him right here and now.. yes, good, very good.. force is strong with you Anakin, now feel how anger flow through your body"... Who cares about that damn cottage or hill at that point? :D
 
As noticed by Elitetroops, all savegames are starting with scouts instead of warrior/scouts depending on starting techs. I fixed the issue in scripts, It won't occur for future SA games.
sorry about that.

I didn't had time this weekend to try out the map for myself, I didn't finished NC game yet.
 
Playing as Pericles, Noble, NHNRE.

Spoiler :

SIP, no point in moving.
build order was worker, warrior, warrior, settler, warrior, settler, then pumped out Phalanx.
Expanded quckly to 3 cities, and pumped phalanx out of the capital, wiping a couple of them when I was reach max pop.
Since Augustus was kind enough to build me SH, I went after him as soon as I got 4 phalanx ready, He just built a third city the turn I DoWed him. He went MIA a couple of turns later.
I kept Rome, and razed the rest.
In the meantime, Sury finished the Great Wall, which make him my next target. That was here my first mistake. I should have shoot straight to his capital, which was defended only by 2 archers, instead I razed his second city, and left there two units to heal.
I lost some turns healing and bringing more units, by that time, he has 5 archers. I lost 4 phalanx getting his capital.

With Sury gone, I'm now focusing in recovering my economy, and building Oracle in Rome.
While warring, I built/wiped libraries, and set 2 scientist in most of them.

I stopped in 1250BC, researching currency atm. I will go after the great lib after that.
I reserved my first GS for later, since I was almost finished with Mathematics when I got him.

Religion wise, Pacal found buddhism, Hammy got hinduism, and both of them hate each other now. Shaka converted to buddhism, and Eli is still neutral, but worst enemy of Shaka.
I plan to keep Shaka and Pacal at pleased at least, and see where this is going.

 
update, 400 AD.

Spoiler :

The game is mostly over already.
I'm expanding toward north and east, while keeping a 50%-60% research rate.
I built the Parthenon, the great lib and the pyramids, bulbed education on my way to Lib, got a GP instead of a GS, so, well, bulbed Civil Service with him. Since I'm way ahead in tech, I didn't start researching lib yet, I switched to music, for the GA.
I will lib Steel I think.
I'm building some units, for discouraging AIs to DoW. I'm involved in a war with Elizabeth since centuries, as per Shaka's demand, but I never saw a unit. Eli has to go though Hammurabi territory first, then Shaka's.
Hammy DoWed me out of nowhere for a while, I met dozens of turn later a single damaged swordman, and he asked for peace.

Pacal researched Alphabet incredibly late (around 400-300 BC), so, very few tech trade atm.

The game is already over, I'm researching too fast while building units.
I intend to build one or 2 stacks of macemen/pikemen while waiting for Canons, then steamroll everyone.

 
Just based on starting shot and leaders:

Hannibal > Pericles > Stalin > Saladin
 
update, 970AD.

Spoiler :

I "libed" Steel in 840AD, updated most of my catapults to canons, most of my CR1-2 swordmen to macemen.
a dozens of turns earlier, Shaka took peace with Eli, to DoW Hammurabi. He finally asked to me to join the fray, and I was happy to do help him. As I approach his first city, Hammy capture one of Shaka's. So, well, I wipe most of Hammy's defense unit, and left his city with a single unit in very bad shape. Shaka took the city on the next turn, while I was recapturing Shaka's city, to keep it.
The AIs are so backward in techs that I'm not sure that it's worth the trouble to go up to riflemen or cuir, I will finish them with macemen and canons.
 
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