AP and UN changes

Even though there is no commit yet, I only have to iron out some minor display issues, so I guess I can talk about it already. So that's what has changed compared to 1.11:

Both institutions:
- votes are now proportional to the square root of population instead of being proportional to the population itself, giving smaller civs more power than before (I will call this the Kaczynski model).
- to win a diplomatic victory, your own votes and those of your vassals don't count. You need a majority among all other civilizations.
- fixed a bug that caused triggered votes to be canceled

Apostolic Palace:
- only civilizations with Catholic state religion are members and allowed to vote
- resolutions that affect all members (e.g. open borders) don't fail if one member defies it, instead it only doesn't apply to that member
- renamed "declare war" resolution to crusade, valid targets are non-members who are at war with a member (defensive crusade) or non-members who control the Catholic holy city or shrine (offensive crusade)
- added a "collect tithe" resolution: if passed, all members lose 10% of their treasury and the current Pope receives half of it
- added a "send inquisition to X" resolution: if passed, the Pope receives additional espionage points against the target player
- added an "excommunicate X" resolution: if passed, the target player loses membership status and receives unhappiness as if he had defied a resolution

United Nations:
- only the four civilizations with the highest military power are allowed to defy resolutions (Security Council)
- added a "decolonize city" resolution: if a player controls a city on another continent, he can be forced to liberate it to independents
- added a "release civilization" resolution: if a dead civilization can be resurrected, a controlling player can be forced to release it

Does defying a resolution still cause a diplo penalty?

Would it be possible to gather a military force from member states for a crusade like in RFCE? Or maybe make the holder of Jerusalem a valid target if they are not catholic?

- added a "release civilization" resolution: if a dead civilization can be resurrected, a controlling player can be forced to release it

Wait wait so if i get this clearly Spain kills Portugal gets all its core territory and Portugal collapses , resolution is passed and it gets the number of votes to succseed and that means that portugal respawns with its initial territory?


Also how are the options for the release determined? I mean is it based on the stability of civ1 that conqured and killed civ2 or what? If you are above stable and the UN resolution passes to free some civilization, but your stability is high as the sky and normally this civilization wouldnt respawn, do they still do?

Leoreth said:

United Nations:
- only the four civilizations with the highest military power are allowed to defy resolutions (Security Council)

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Why four?

merijn_v1 said:

Does defying a resolution still cause a diplo penalty?

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Yes.

ImNotHere said:

Would it be possible to gather a military force from member states for a crusade like in RFCE? Or maybe make the holder of Jerusalem a valid target if they are not catholic?

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I thought about that but decided against it, mostly because of the inertia rule. If the crusaders can capture a muslim city on their own it's okay, but spawning a bunch of units near Jerusalem would likely only lead to an ahistorically long European presence there. We've seen that the Euros are actually capable of conquering cities there, so I think it's fine as it is.

At least in 600 AD, the holder of Jerusalem also controls the Catholic shrine and is therefore a valid target.

Xfactor said:

- added a "release civilization" resolution: if a dead civilization can be resurrected, a controlling player can be forced to release it

Wait wait so if i get this clearly Spain kills Portugal gets all its core territory and Portugal collapses , resolution is passed and it gets the number of votes to succseed and that means that portugal respawns with its initial territory?

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Correct.

ales_ said:

Why four?

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Because I refuse to acknowledge the French seat in the UN security council.

(Seriously though, it just seemed like a good number. Not that much reasoning behind it.)

In my opinion, five would be better and there would be a reasoning behind it.

Awesome man, that looks good.

Question, what determines the likelihood that a civ would vote or not vote for a certain resolution?

Without giving too much details, to avoid exploitation of course.

Does it have to do with how friendly you are with other civs?

Depends on the resolution, the relationship with the affected civilization and the secretary general or pope. A civ will never vote against its own interests and depending on the circumstances will take other variables into account. For instance, declare war factors in everyone's willingness to go to war against the target, the new tithe resolution depends on how much gold the civ has saved compared to its commerce output and so on.

Awesome functions for 1.12v

Glad to decolonization options.

Awesome! These institution were always the weakness of Rhye's and Fall and DoC. Sounds much better now.

Leoreth said:

I thought about that but decided against it, mostly because of the inertia rule. If the crusaders can capture a muslim city on their own it's okay, but spawning a bunch of units near Jerusalem would likely only lead to an ahistorically long European presence there. We've seen that the Euros are actually capable of conquering cities there, so I think it's fine as it is.

At least in 600 AD, the holder of Jerusalem also controls the Catholic shrine and is therefore a valid target.

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I was thinking that after Jerusalem is captured, each unit has a 75% chance of returning to the original owner (except your units, they, along with the few remaining "recruits", have to hold back the Arabs/Turks/Egyptians/Seljuks). This is, after all, mostly how it happened. Once the crusaders took the city, visited the holy places, many, if not most, left for Europe.

Number of recruits could be something like 1 unit per catholic civ for every 10 units they control minus the number of cities they have, so you don't steal garrisons. In addition, maybe the leader should provide more units, as they will be the main defenders after the city is taken. Numbers could obviously be adjusted as needed. That way, you may have 20 units to take Jerusalem, but once the city falls, you may be reduced to just 5 with no backup, making it fairly likely to have the city fall again.

Lastly, maybe make two types of crusade. Perhaps a holy war being just war declaration and a crusade being a full out attack. Crusades in this case would be more rare, and maybe make them obsolete with a certain tech (three catholic civs enter the renaissance) (can AP resolutions be obsoleted?).

Anyway, I guess in the end, I'll support whatever you decide to do.

ImNotHere said:

I was thinking that after Jerusalem is captured, each unit has a 75% chance of returning to the original owner (except your units, they, along with the few remaining "recruits", have to hold back the Arabs/Turks/Egyptians/Seljuks). This is, after all, mostly how it happened. Once the crusaders took the city, visited the holy places, many, if not most, left for Europe.

Number of recruits could be something like 1 unit per catholic civ for every 10 units they control minus the number of cities they have, so you don't steal garrisons. In addition, maybe the leader should provide more units, as they will be the main defenders after the city is taken. Numbers could obviously be adjusted as needed. That way, you may have 20 units to take Jerusalem, but once the city falls, you may be reduced to just 5 with no backup, making it fairly likely to have the city fall again.

Lastly, maybe make two types of crusade. Perhaps a holy war being just war declaration and a crusade being a full out attack. Crusades in this case would be more rare, and maybe make them obsolete with a certain tech (three catholic civs enter the renaissance) (can AP resolutions be obsoleted?).

Anyway, I guess in the end, I'll support whatever you decide to do.

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That's pretty difficult to handle though, you would need to keep track of ongoing crusades and remember which units were spawned in the process and all that stuff. Not really worth the effort in my opinion (things are different when your mod has a focus on Catholic Europe of course).

Oh, nice! Random:

- Orthodox shouldnt be targets for crusades. Even if they did raid Constantinople in 1204.
- Since AP transfers the Catholic holy city, it will not be Jerusalem. So when will offensive crusades happen? When Arabia captures Rome or similiar probably builder of the AP? Maybe change to non-member (non-christian) who owns Jerusalem? It is still a "holy" city.
- Collect Tithe should have some downside, otherwise the human will use it as much as possible. Lose some units that "collects" the tithe?
- Inquisition. How about some random persecution among member cities of non-christian religion?
- I dont know when AP ceases to work, but if it is when protestantism is founded offensive crusades wont happen that late in time (if you want units to spawn near Jerusalem).
- You can steal the RFCE code if you want the returning crusaders mechanism.

UN:

- Can you opt out/defy even if small? Unhappiness and lose Open Borders with all members maybe?
- Release Civ should only be for civs that have a modern respawn. They may all have that, dont know if so.
- Since AI is limited in intelligence. Maybe only 3 permanent members?

ezzlar said:

Oh, nice! Random:

- Orthodox shouldnt be targets for crusades. Even if they did raid Constantinople in 1204.
- Since AP transfers the Catholic holy city, it will not be Jerusalem. So when will offensive crusades happen? When Arabia captures Rome or similiar probably builder of the AP? Maybe change to non-member (non-christian) who owns Jerusalem? It is still a "holy" city.
- Collect Tithe should have some downside, otherwise the human will use it as much as possible. Lose some units that "collects" the tithe?
- Inquisition. How about some random persecution among member cities of non-christian religion?
- I dont know when AP ceases to work, but if it is when protestantism is founded offensive crusades wont happen that late in time (if you want units to spawn near Jerusalem).
- You can steal the RFCE code if you want the returning crusaders mechanism.

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- maybe you're right about offensive crusades against Orthodox, an Orthodox Jerusalem shouldn't enable a crusade. Don't see why they shouldn't be target to defensive crusades though.
- it's holy city or shrine specifically to keep Jerusalem in under 600 AD settings.
- the Papal inquisition was more about intelligence and less about religious persecution, that's more like the Spanish inquisition.
- yeah, maybe the AP should expire earlier in general

UN:

- Can you opt out/defy even if small? Unhappiness and lose Open Borders with all members maybe?
- Release Civ should only be for civs that have a modern respawn. They may all have that, dont know if so.
- Since AI is limited in intelligence. Maybe only 3 permanent members?

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All civilizations have a return deadline after which they can't be revived anymore. So no bringing back Babylonia from Turkey.

Do catholic religious buildings still get a hammer bonus when the AP is build?

Regarding defensive crusades against orthodox. Crusades should be about crushing the infidels. I think orthodoxy is too close to catholics to inspire that religious unity against a religious foe.

I dont get this "- it's holy city or shrine specifically to keep Jerusalem in under 600 AD settings."

You are saying that the holy city and shrine is in Jerusalem in the 600AD scenario? What about 3000 BC then?

The shrine is in Jerusalem, the holy city is Rome.

merijn_v1 said:

Do catholic religious buildings still get a hammer bonus when the AP is build?

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Yep, that hasn't changed. I'll address balancing religious perks and wonders in 1.13.

ezzlar said:

Regarding defensive crusades against orthodox. Crusades should be about crushing the infidels. I think orthodoxy is too close to catholics to inspire that religious unity against a religious foe.

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Even Catholics can become target of a defensive crusade if they lose their membership status (from excommunication or defying a resolution). Attitude still factors into the decisions, so wars against Muslims will be much easier to organize.

I dont get this "- it's holy city or shrine specifically to keep Jerusalem in under 600 AD settings."

You are saying that the holy city and shrine is in Jerusalem in the 600AD scenario? What about 3000 BC then?

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As ales said, in 600 AD the shrine is in Jerusalem while Rome is the holy city. In 3000 BC Christianity might be founded somewhere else, but then this city should become target. Same thing applies if the shrine is built before the AP moves the holy city again.

Great.Some ideas about UN:
1:There could be five permanent seat.one is the builder and the others are the top 4 on the scores.and 10 or less temporary ones half a UN leaders term.
2:An opt out.All nations will get a event to join the UN.if a player does get involved at first,they will get happiness and stability bonus.if they don't get involve,there will be no penalty but the UN may propose a bill to wage a war against them and if they can force them into becoming a part of UN by diplomacy or some other stuff and can only be preformed once.If the other sides wins,they may peacefully become independent.though they can join later but however,with a small stability penalty and 1 turn anarchy.Same applies to ones which opt out later only they will get 1 turn anarchy,stability penalty and 2 unhappiness.