Patterns in Prehistoric Population Migrations

Borachio,

If you use such general terms as "R1b" (instead of going deeper into subclades), then we can as well use "R1":



One variant of R1b is not equal to another variant of R1b. Some variants of R1b arrived with Anglo-Saxons.

As for Oppenheimer - I found this:

Stephen Oppenheimer isn't a geneticist, he's a pediatrician with an interest in tropical diseases.
Click to expand...

Another thing is that Stephen Oppenheimer doesn't know that the Basques migrated to Iberia only in the 2nd millennium BC.

The Basques didn't live in Iberia when the Ice Age ended. People indeed spread from the Iberian "refugium", but they weren't Basque!

Those people were not even R1b - at least so far there is no proof for presence of R1b individuals in Iberia at that time.

=================================================

As for R1b, R1a, I1 and I2 haplogroups - all of them are related, in the sense that all of them come from IJK haplogroup.

IJK comes from F haplogroup, from which it split 40,000 years ago. Then IJ and K separated about 25,000 years ago.

K is the ancestral haplogroup of R (both R1 and R2), as well as of N and a few others. Later R1 split into R1a and R1b.

The split of R into R1 and R2 took place 20,000 years ago. R1 split into R1a and R1b probably 14,000 - 15,000 years ago.

Those people were not even R1b - at least so far there is no proof for presence of R1b individuals in Iberia at that time.
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There is no proof but samples are very small, so maybe something will be discovered in the future.

But - for now - it seems that R1b came to Europe no earlier than 4600 years ago (ca. 2600 BC), just like R1a:

Mesolithic (Middle Stone Age) European Y-DNA discovered so far - I, I2, C1a2:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

Neolithic (Late Stone Age) European Y-DNA disocvered so far - G2, F*, I, I2, I1, E1b:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

F* is ancestral to G, H, I, J, K (any of these could split from those Neolithic F*s). K is ancestral to R1, but also to several other. So this is no proof.

First confirmed Y-DNA R1 comes to Europe only during the Copper and Bronze Age - around 4600 years ago:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

This website also confirms that first R1b and R1a was from Copper Age (Chalcolithic), ca 2600 BC:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml

First R1b in Europe was discovered among people of Bell Beaker culture (2800 – 1800 BC):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

Migrations of Bell Beaker's people:



First R1a in Europe was discovered among people of Corded Ware culture (2900 - 2350 BC):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

 
Domen said:
<stuff>
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OK. I can't argue with any of that. I just hit on the "UK people are really Basques" video clip, and was amused enough to post it.

You plainly know a lot more about this subject than most.

I can't help feeling this doesn't really belong in a thread on the Ukrainian crisis, and might be better served by a thread of its own. Still, I know nothing about anything (I've never claimed otherwise), so take no notice.
 
Famous Ötzi the Iceman was of G haplogroup, which is not so frequent in Europe today:



But these samples are very small, so probably they can't tell us much:



Anyway - it seems that a decrease of G haplogroup % took place.

We know how Ötzi died (he was killed by "the others"), maybe this happened with "G people" in general:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi#Cause_of_death

In 2001 X-rays and a CT scan revealed that Ötzi had an arrowhead lodged in his left shoulder when he died,[42] and a matching small tear on his coat.[43] The discovery of the arrowhead prompted researchers to theorize Ötzi died of blood loss from the wound, which would probably have been fatal even if modern medical techniques had been available.[44] Further research found that the arrow's shaft had been removed before death, and close examination of the body found bruises and cuts to the hands, wrists and chest and cerebral trauma indicative of a blow to the head. One of the cuts was to the base of his thumb that reached down to the bone but had no time to heal before his death. Currently it is believed that death was caused by a blow to the head, though researchers are unsure if this was due to a fall, or from being struck with a rock by another person.[45] Unpublished and thus unconfirmed DNA analyses claim they revealed traces of blood from four other people on his gear: one from his knife, two from the same arrowhead, and a fourth from his coat.[46] Interpretations of these findings were that Ötzi killed two people with the same arrow, and was able to retrieve it on both occasions, and the blood on his coat was from a wounded comrade he may have carried over his back.[43] Ötzi's unnatural posture in death (frozen body, face down, left arm bent across the chest) suggests that the theory of a solitary death from blood loss, hunger, cold and weakness is untenable. Rather, before death occurred and rigor mortis set in, the Iceman was turned on to his stomach in the effort to remove the arrow shaft.[47]

In May 2012, researchers using Raman spectroscopy and atomic force microscopy concluded that Ötzi did not die immediately from his shoulder wound. They detected dried blood cells and possibly fibrin in a state of degradation from maturity, suggesting an established blood clot of more than a few days' age.[48][not in citation given]

The DNA evidence suggests that he was assisted by companions who were also wounded; pollen and food analysis suggests that he was out of his home territory. The copper axe could not have been made by him alone. It would have required a group tribal effort to mine, smelt and cast the copper axe head. This may indicate that Ötzi was part of an armed raiding party involved in a skirmish, perhaps with a neighboring tribe, and this skirmish had gone badly.
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=================================

I can't help feeling this doesn't really belong in a thread on the Ukrainian crisis,
Click to expand...

Well, it can raise a question "why do we still have wars, why haven't we learned anything since times of Ötzi the Iceman" ???

So it belongs in this thread, in some way.
 
Moderator Action: Split from Ukraine Crisis thread. This is interesting enough to warrant it's own thread instead of spam infractions, I think
 
Look I started a new thread with no hands. Neat, eh?

Thank you, Mr Grimes.
 
It's funny how we have these clear definitions that put people into various groups: Whites, blacks, Europeans, Asians, etc., but when looking at the history of the migrations of people it seems like such a thing should be impossible to do in any meaningful sort of way.

"European culture stops at this border".. That seems so silly, with all this in mind.
 
Here is my estimation of current ancestry among native Scottish males, based on Y-DNA haplogroups:

Stone Age inhabitants of Britain - 6%
Bronze Age immigration (Beaker people) - 33%
Roman era immigration to Scotland - 5%
Celtic (Iron Age) immigration - 25%
Dalriada (Irish) immigration - 10%
Viking, Anglo-Saxon, English - 21%

The largest portion of Scottish ancestry comes from Bronze Age migrants of Bell-Beaker culture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture
 
A thread called "Patterns in Prehistoric Population Migrations"? Might as well go in the bathroom and say Domen three times over.
 
Light skin, blonde hair and red hair colours did not arise in Europe, but spread into Europe from Russian steppes, with people of R1 haplogroup:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#pigmentation

archaeologist Folke Bergman discovered some 200 mummies of fair-haired Caucasian people in the Tarim Basin in Northwest China (a region known as Xinjiang, East Turkestan or Uyghurstan). The oldest of these mummies date back to 2000 BCE and all 7 male remains tested by Li et al. (2010), were positive for the R1a1 mutation

(...)

R1 populations spread genes for light skin, blond hair and red hair

There is now strong evidence that both R1a and R1b people contributed to the diffusion of the A111T mutation of the SLC24A5, which explains approximately 35% of skin tone difference between Europeans and Africans, and most variations within South Asia. The distribution pattern of the A111T allele (rs1426654) of matches almost perfectly the spread of Indo-European R1a and R1b lineages around Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and South Asia. The mutation was probably passed on in the Early neolithic to other Near Eastern populations, which explains why Neolithic farmers in Europe already carried the A111T allele (e.g. Keller 2012 p.4, Lazaridis 2014 suppl. 7), although at lower frequency than modern Europeans and southern Central Asians.

The light skin allele is also found at a range of 15 to 30% in in various ethnic groups in northern sub-Saharan Africa, mostly in the Sahel and savannah zones inhabited by tribes of R1b-V88 cattle herders like the Fulani and the Hausa. This would presuppose that the A111T allele was already present among all R1b people before the Pre-Pottery Neolithic split between V88 and P297. R1a populations have an equally high incidence of this allele as R1b populations. On the other hand, the A111T mutation was absent from the 24,000-year-old R* sample from Siberia, and is absent from most modern R2 populations in Southeast India and Southeast Asia. Consequently, it can be safely assumed that the mutation arose among the R1* lineage during the late Upper Paleolithic, probably some time between 20,000 and 13,000 years ago.

Fair hair was another physical trait associated with the Indo-Europeans. In contrast, the genes for blue eyes were already present among Mesolithic Europeans belonging to Y-haplogroup I. The genes for blond hair are more strongly correlated with the distribution of haplogroup R1a, but those for red hair have not been found in Europe before the Bronze Age, and appear to have been spread primarily by R1b people (=> see The origins of red hair).
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Europeans before the migrations of R1 and the Indo-European conquest (Proto-Indo-Europeans were overwhelmingly R1 people), looked like this:



R1 people appeared in Europe during the Copper Age. They were also the ones who invented chariots and brought them to Europe.
 
JEELEN said:
It should. So where are these 'patterns in prehistoric population migrations'?
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They came from the Middle East.

You should figure the rest on your own, and increase the rate of deciphering tables and maps of different ethnicities, because the more you know!
 
It could be pointed out that people traveled east from the ME. They kept traveling while some of them stopped and settled. It is quite possible that they went all the way around the world and some of them ended up once again in the Mediterranean. After a couple thousand years or more of wandering those who made it that far, could have been the sea people that once again made it back to where their forefathers started from. I don't think that the Europeans can take all the credit for being the first to circle the globe. They were just the first to do it quicker.
 
I would take everything above with a pinch of salt because ancient genetics is such cutting-edge stuff. I've been following blogs in this area for a few years, and it seems every few months there's a major study that either overthrows an accepted fact of pre-genetics history, or forces the models incorporating DNA to undergo major revision.

For example, the video points out that R1b is more common in western Europe (Iberia/British Isles). But the latest results seem to also show a north-south component as well.

Domen said:
Famous Ötzi the Iceman was of G haplogroup, which is not so frequent in Europe today:

Click to expand...

The maps shows that Sardinia is full of G carriers. This and other results suggest that Sardinians are disproportionately similar to ancient Europeans* which is getting a lot of geneticists quite excited. Probably a good time to invest in Sardinian WiFi hotspots before they all descend, testing kits and laptops in hand.

* I mean, c'mon, can you think of anything exciting that's happened in Sardinia in the last 6000 years? Know any famous Sardinians?

Domen said:
Light skin, blonde hair and red hair colours did not arise in Europe...
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The Tarim mummies are fascinating but any explanation needs to incorporate the distribution of blond(e) hair, which looks like this:



So sad that this isn't in World History. That forum seems to be at a low point again.
 
Tolni said:
They came from the Middle East.
Click to expand...

It could be pointed out that people traveled east from the ME. They kept traveling while some of them stopped and settled. It is quite possible that they went all the way around the world and some of them ended up once again in the Mediterranean.
Click to expand...

Well, that's all clear then.
 
The Tarim mummies are fascinating but any explanation needs to incorporate the distribution of blond(e) hair,
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This is a modern map, the % geographic distribution of light hair was simply different in the past than it is today.

And Tarim mummies are no any exception, for example Kazakhstan was inhabited only by "Europeans" until the Iron Age:

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index....thropology-of-kazakh-people-and-their-genesis



Tarim mummies were Tocharian-speakers but to the north-east of them, in Western Mongolia and Asian Russia, lived also Scythians:



One of Scythians buried ca. 7th century BC near the Russian-Mongolian border:





Another Indo-European from Issyk Kul Province of Kyrgyzstan:



Scythian art from the Ukok Plateau area - Pazyryk Culture:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukok_Plateau
 
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