Enders Game 1: The Training Game Competition - Team 2

Team 2:
Sirp
Shaesha
Stuck as a Mac
Rubberjello
Smurf

Game Settings:
EMPEROR
Standard world
Pangaea middle land setting
Normal, Temperate, 4 billion
Sedentary Barbs
Civilization: Russia

I think the biggest difference between Regent/Monarch and Emperor is the increased importance of diplomacy. A Regent or Monarch player very likely is used to doing his or her own research from the getgo, rarely needing to trade with the AI except to get resources. Emperor is a very different world. Without brokering and careful diplomacy, the AI will leave you in the dust. I have selected Russia because I want to stress diplomacy. Scouts will get early contact and give us the best maps around. The Scientific trait will help us with the "slingshot" at the beginning of each age which can be very important in taking the tech lead and solidifying a strong position.

I have hand selected our rivals to include an even range of the 6 characteristics. There are 3 Commercial and 3 Industrious and 2 of the rest.

Rules:
Strict 24/48
No building the Pyramids or Great Library
Scouts may step into huts, but any advanced tribe must be abandoned and any settler must be disbanded.
No exploits
No checking the other thread until the game is over (duh )

I will post the start file tomorrow.

I'm going to swap the roster around a little from what Speaker posted. It will be,

Stuck as a Mac
Shaesha
Sirp
Rubberjello
Smurf

Stuck as a Mac will play 20 turns on his first round, and everyone will play 10 turns thereafter.

All players should check in here to let me know you're around. A brief description of where your current skill level with the game is at would also be helpful so I can see where each player is at.

Since the start file won't be posted until tomorrow, that gives us some time for a brief pre-game discussion: what do you guys think we should do at the start? What build orders should we set? Which technology should we start researching immediately? We are the Russians, what are their traits and which unique unit do they get?

-Sirp.

I'm around As far as my abilities, I would say that I definately have room for improvement!

I think that where we are is a great starting place. 2 bonus tiles, cattle, fresh water, and food! The Russians are expansionistic and scientific. We're starting with pottery and bronze working. I never know what to do about build order I would say probably the alphabet.

Thanks
Shaesha

Woohoo! I'm here!

Err...Fairly comfortable Monarch player, but I lose on Emporer about 30 to 50% of the time. I lose at Diety usually, but make a good effort at it (losing!)

I like the start position as is ( but is he on a bonus tile there?).

I would usually start Bronzeworking on a Pangaea map, but since this game is stressing trading of maps and contacts, I agree with Saesha and go Alphabet and then Writing as priorities.

Build order? Uhmmm...another Scout, Warrior for MP, Warrior for MP, then Granary with possible whip to finish it faster? Seems like our capital location would be a fairly decent settler factory.

Thanks for having me aboard!

Oh yes, another question: what exactly should our worker do at the start of the game?

List the worker actions in order for the first 3 tiles that he should improve, from what we can see so far, and justify why he should do this.

-Sirp.

Here is the start file.

Please name your files following this convention so we do not get our games mixed up: "EG1-Team2-Date."

EG1 - 4000BC

This is the last time I will be checking this thread, so I leave you in the very capable hands of Sirp. See you in 5500 some odd years. Good Luck!

Originally posted by Sirp
Oh yes, another question: what exactly should our worker do at the start of the game?

List the worker actions in order for the first 3 tiles that he should improve, from what we can see so far, and justify why he should do this.

-Sirp.

Click to expand...

Irrigate Cow, then road it.
Irrigate Wheat, then Road it.
Mine bonus grassland square, road it.

All three of these things will give us bonus shields/food under despotism.

*hehe* Feels like I'm taking a quiz in college!

RubberJello, your proposed worker actions are good, but you do miss one important optimization. Something that is slightly counter-intuitive and goes against 'common wisdom' on the subject.

Can anyone tell us what it is?

Hint: how much food does a town need in its food box before it grows, with and without a granary?

-Sirp.

Good luck to Team 2! You are all in VERY capable hands. Even though I have yet to play an SG with Sirp, I have learned much from his SGs and from reading up on his realms beyond Epics exploits. And I am sure I will pick up a couple of things from this game.

This is going to sound like a bad start, but I need to be skipped as of now. I've got too much to do today and tomorrow. If not, perhaps just move me down a spot or two in the roster.

Sorry

SaaM

Ok...I'll rearrange the roster a little...

Rubberjello
Shaesha
Sirp
Smurf
Stuck as a Mac

We are still waiting for Smurf to check in.

Rubberjello can take and play the game whenever he can get to it.

As for the mistake he made in his worker jobs analysis, since no-one else has ventured an idea as to what it could be, this is what it is:

It takes 20 food for a city under size 7 to grow. 10 food if you have a granary in the city. Any excess food you get will be lost.

Assuming that the wheat and the cattle are the only bonus food tiles around, irrigating both of them will give us a food surplus of 6 food per turn.

That means that our city will grow every 4 turns without a granary, and every 2 turns with a granary.

This is exactly the same growth rate as for a 5-food surplus.

Thus, although maximizing food always on is a good principle, increasing from a 5 food surplus to a 6 food surplus has no use, and it is better to get an extra shield instead.

Thus the best sequence of worker actions from what we know is,

- move onto the cattle, irrigate it, then road it
- move onto the wheat, *mine* it, then road it
- move onto the enriched grassland, mine it, then road it

Note that if we did get a 6 food surplus we could actually make benefit of it by switching from the irrigated wheat to a bonus grassland every other turn, to give alternating 6 food and 4 food surpluses and to get extra shields from the bonus grass.

This would provide no extra benefit, wouldn't be as productive in lots of situations, and would require lots more micromanaging. It could actually have some value if we decided to build another city near enough to the capital to share the wheat tile, so that it could get the wheat tile every other turn. However that's not the sort of strategy we're going to use in this game.

If it turns out that there's another bonus food tile in range of Moscow, then it'll make the situation a little more interesting, since we'd be able to get the food surplus to 7. That is beneficial, until you have a granary, since you can grow every 3 turns.

However in such a case, I'd probably be in favor of still mining the wheat as it'd speed the granary up.

Ok I'm not going to say anything more at this time, because I do want players to have some autonomy over what they do

Other players are still welcome to suggest tactics we should use.

Oh, and, please everyone, don't be afraid of making mistakes. Go out and give it your best shot, do some daring moves. I won't bite (hard) if you make a mistake, and you and probably someone else, will learn from it.

Let's get em!

-Sirp.

Hey, no problem. Real life stuff happens, despite our best efforts to not let it impact what is really important!

Sirp, SaaM and I could switch places this round, if you like. I can play in a few hours (night, P.S.T). Or Shaesha could start in sequence, whatever you want to do.

Doh! Talk about cross-posting! Alrighty. I'm at work now, but should be completing my turn tonight. Thanks for the tip for working the tiles. I've seen other threads where people have been "reprimanded" for mining a Wheat tile under depotism, but under the circumstances your reasoning is impecable! Sp?
Thanks

Thanks, Sirp

looks like a good game everyone. Lets go out and win (and beat team 1..)

Yeah I have no problem with rearranging/skipping people if they let us know up front that they don't have time at the moment.

RubberJello, that's why you basically have to have a strong understanding of how the game works rather than just follow 'rules'.

Yes it's possible some people would 'reprimand' you for mining the wheat, but in this case it's them who are mistaken This is a somewhat unusual situation though, which doesn't come up often, since a start position this fertile isn't that common.

-Sirp.

History has forgotten how the first royal despot came to power over the Russian people, but the general consensus is that he simply sat on the "royal rock" while all potential rivals were laughing their asses off about how stupid the name "RubberJello" was. (Especially considering how Jello TM wouldn't be
invented for another 5900 years.) Once empowered, they decided to humor him and not remove him, but simply said to themselves, "Gawd! I hope we don't meet any other Civs in the
next 1000 years. That would be so embarrasing!"

4000 B.C. (1) The scout (renamed to "Gimme Tech") moves first, to see if there is even a more advantageous spot to settle
- not really. Moscow founded in starting spot. Worker decides to "go service" some cows (Hey! Those workers get kind of lonely, you know!) 100% Research on Alphabet. Scout set for Production

3950 B.C. (2) Gimme Tech wonders where to go first - He spits in the 8 possible directions. The wind is coming from the West, so he decides to head in that direction (after wiping the spit off his face!)

3900 B.C.(3) Exploring - another wheat tile to the west.

3850 B.C.(4) China is to our (north)west. Encounter warrior in Jungle. They have Masonry and Warrior Code, while we have Pottery and Bronze Working. Not willing to make a trade straight across, only a 2 for 1. Not a good deal for us (right?)

3800 B.C.(5) Exploring - stuck in Jungle, but not a whole lot of choice, from what I can tell.

3750 B.C.(6) Cow irrigating is finished, road Scout finished in Moscow and renamed to "Just Passin' through" and heads NE, start Warrior

3700 B.C.(7) Gimme Tech gets lost - asks for directions and a local village, and learns - Cermonial Burial!
Slider bar adjusted to keep Moscow happy.


3650 B.C.(8) Exploring, end of jungle in sight to the North.

3600 B.C.(9) Finished with Cows, start mining on wheat.
3550 B.C.(10) Warrior produced, Slider returned back.

3500 B.C.(11) Borders Expand, Just Passin Through also gets lost and asks for directions at a local village, and learns Warrior Code! China refuses to trade for Masonry at all now, even for a 3 for 1 deal.


3450 B.C.(12) Slider Adjustment to keep happiness.

3400 B.C.(13) Scandinavians contacted to the North(NE) Yeuchh! I hate those 'zerkers! We're up BW and CB on them, and they have nothing to trade. But I see they will contact China next turn (who has since learned BW), so I trade BW to Scandinavia for 10 GP.

3350 B.C.(14) Exploring. 2'nd Warrior produced for MP, start granary

3300 B.C.(15) Gimme Tech finds Egypt to the North. Trades BW and Pottery for Masonry + 10 Gold. We still have WC over her. She has Wines connected. China and Scandinavia are best buds, they've exchanged all their techs.

3250 B.C.(16) Finish Mining Wheat, start road

3200 B.C.(17) Exploring

3150 B.C.(18) Exploring ... Just Passin Through took a detailed spy trip through Scandinavian territory.

3100 B.C.(19) Done with Wheat Square, go to Bonus Grassland square to start mining.

3050 B.C.(20) Exploring, Alphabet in 10. Moscow is in serious need of a whip, But I'll leave it up to my successor!

Rubberjello the First finally gives in to extreme old age. The people observe a moment of silence for him (approx. 3 seconds!), and hail a much more appropriately named leader soon afterwards.

We got a buttload of Jungle all along the North...and some pretty ugly-looking neighbors who are fairly close.

Firstly a couple of organizational things, firstly RubberJello, please use the upload server (go to the very bottom of the page, in the bottom-right corner there is an 'upload file' link), instead of attaching files to posts. If you need more explanation on how to do this let me know.

Secondly, on your last turn, play the turn - move the units - just don't press enter at the end of the turn. When the next player gets it, they shouldn't have any units to move before the first time they press enter.

Originally posted by Rubberjello

4000 B.C. (1) The scout (renamed to "Gimme Tech") moves first, to see if there is even a more advantageous spot to settle
- not really. Moscow founded in starting spot.

Click to expand...

Good work to move the scout before deciding where to settle. The starting spot looked very strong, but when you're expansionistic, you should just about always move the scout first to check things out.

Scout set for Production

Click to expand...

This is exactly what we want: scouts to explore the area, making contacts, popping huts.

3850 B.C.(4) China is to our (north)west. Encounter warrior in Jungle. They have Masonry and Warrior Code, while we have Pottery and Bronze Working. Not willing to make a trade straight across, only a 2 for 1. Not a good deal for us (right?)

Click to expand...

If you could have gotten Masonry for Pottery + Bronze Working, I'd have snapped up that deal. Masonry is an expensive tech, and the deal might not be available forever. WC for our techs would not have been worth it, although BW for WC would have been ok.

road Scout finished in Moscow and renamed to "Just Passin' through" and heads NE, start Warrior

Click to expand...

You should almost certainly have started another scout. For Pangaea, we definitely want three scouts, at least. With a third scout, you could have gone south, and probably made two or three more contacts.

One warrior to defend the city would have been fine - it'd be worth the extra 1gpt we'd need for MP. If you were wanting to be conservative about our security, you could have build two warriors or a spearman in addition to the third scout before starting on the granary. The way to exploit use of the expansionist trait is to build lots of scouts.

3700 B.C.(7) Gimme Tech gets lost - asks for directions and a local village, and learns - Cermonial Burial!

Click to expand...

That's good, but....did you try and see what China would give us for CB?

3550 B.C.(10) Warrior produced, Slider returned back.

Click to expand...

You set build to another warrior I assume? Why?

If you built another warrior for reasons of 'national security', then....ok that's at least got a reason behind it. If you built it for military police, well....turning the luxury slider up one point will do the same, and will cost 1gpt. The warrior will cost us 1gpt in maintenance, since we will be over the unit limit.

Lots of players seem to overrate the power of military police this early. When you get two or three cities, then yeah sure. At this stage, use the slider. The luxury slider is VERY efficient when you have just one city.

If it wasn't for worrying about being attacked, I would build two or three scouts and then go straight for a granary.

Just Passin Through also gets lost and asks for directions at a local village, and learns Warrior Code!

Click to expand...

If you had been able to get Warrior Code off China, we'd have gotten another tech, probably with a monopoly on it. Not saying you should have been able to do this, just pointing out the various benefits of being able to execute trades early.

China refuses to trade for Masonry at all now, even for a 3 for 1 deal.

Click to expand...

This almost certainly means they have contact with one or more civs that have some of our techs, deflating the price, and perhaps they are researching one of our techs and already have it, so they don't need to buy it.

But I see they will contact China next turn (who has since learned BW), so I trade BW to Scandinavia for 10 GP.

Click to expand...

Well, this is where it'd have been good to trade BW to China before. Now all you get for BW is 10 measly gold. Good work on at least doing this trade though.

3350 B.C.(14) Exploring. 2'nd Warrior produced for MP, start granary

Click to expand...

Well, you should have probably built 2 scouts and a warrior, or 2 scouts and a spearman, but good work on starting a granary now.

3050 B.C.(20) Exploring, Alphabet in 10. Moscow is in serious need of a whip, But I'll leave it up to my successor!

Click to expand...

No, no...no need to whip Moscow. It's producing 5 shields per turn. That's plenty enough to finish the granary quickly. Then straight for a settler, who'll be escorted by one of the warriors to settle our second city, while Moscow builds another scout.

Good job for managing the happiness in Moscow well, RubberJello. Important this early.

Talking of our second city, we can get it to the south-west, on the coast, on the river, and right next to floodplains (see that one tile under the shroud? If you look closely you can see it's floodplains). It's nicely spaced from the capital and on good land.



Good luck Shaesha!

-Sirp.

EDIT: Oh yes, at the end of your turn, the Vikings had 25 gold, and didn't have Masonry or CB, although everyone else did. You should have sold CB to them for 25 gold, before someone else did!

3050BC(1) - Started Mining bonus grassland. We're up on Scandanavia by Masonry
and Ceremonial Burial. We're even with China. Egypt has The Wheel and Mysticism
but we have Warrior Code. Egypt is not interested in a trade We sold
Ceremonial Burial to the Vikings for 25gp.

3000BC(2) - Exploring - had to move the lux slider up. We've met the Celts. We're
up Masonry and Pottery. Traded Pottery for 35 Gold.

2950BC(3) - Exploring

2900BC(4) - Exploring

2850BC(5) - Granary -> Scout. (In hindsight I think I should have set it to a Settler) We meet the English trade Masonry for Alphabet and
10 gold. Traded The Warrior code and Alphabet for The Wheel with Egypt. Set
Research to Mathematics.

2800BC(6) - Started roading the bonus grassland.

2710BC(7) - Scout -> Settler.

2670BC(8) - Exploring

2630BC(9) - Exploring

Looks like I missed a turn in there sorry!

The Save

Shaesha, the zip file you posted is empty. Please try posting it again

-Sirp.

I'm at work now I'll resend it tonight after I get home

Thanks

All good critiques there, Sirp. I appreciate the feedback. I hope I have not bolloxed up the whole thing for everyone!

Upload file : DOH! I read the main thread on how to do that, but then couldn't find the "button"! (I didn't look at the bottom of the page - I had assumed it was on the top of the page and maybe it was temporarily unavailable.) Sorry.

Sorry about the "no units moving on the 20'th turn" there. It won't happen again.

About early trades (or lack thereof). Yep. I admit it. I don't have a lot of practice there and made some mis-steps. Firstly, I haven't played a lot of Pangaea maps and am not used to having 3 contacts in the first 20 turns. I should have taken the 1 for 2 deal for Masonry when first offered. China just kind of teed me off by refusing any 1 for 1 trades.

Overuse of MP Warriors - Guilty as charged!
Slider is much better on low barbarian maps. I erred on the side of caution also, because that Chinese warrior was in our face so soon.

I guess I didn't check trades on my last turn. On the 19'th turn, the Vikings had 0 gp. They must have popped a hut.

I've got two questions though.

Why research Mathematics? Wouldn't Writing be a better choice at this point?

City placement. We have an extremely fertile pocket shielded by a whole lot of jungle. Shouldn't our initial cities be fairly close with quite a bit of overlap? I'm betting we'll be running out of prime city spots fairly soon, and may need to work every good tile possible. (I'll admit it...I'm scared of all that Jungle with a non-industrious Civ.)

BTW. I have no idea how fast this thing will come around again. I'm going away for about 36 hours this weekend. I won't be available to play again until Sunday morning, Pacific Standard Time. You can skip me or swap me back to my original position, whatever you want.