Affinity Traits

DefiantMars · Aug 5, 2015

After I saw the new Traits system I began thinking about the possibility of having Traits that are unique to an affinity. I thought that even within the same affinity, colonies would still turn out different based on their chosen focus. I don't think Elodie's Purity would look the same as Vadim's Purity the same way I cannot believe that Kavitha's Harmony is the same as Rejinaldo's Harmony. Therefore I felt that This system would help you define your affinity more specifically.

This is a very, very, very incomplete draft of the concept. I wanted to wait until I had a more complete list, but I kept getting stuck. So I would like to know what you think and if you have any suggestions for both new or listed Traits feel free to leave them. Right now I'm just trying to get 2 for each of the 5 categories, and their Agreements. But if you have more, by all means go ahead.

NOTE: This means that this list will change quite a bit so don't be surprised to see things move around, appear, or disappear altogether.

Affinity Traits

Your society is defined by your affinity and as you devote yourself to one, you can focus your society’s efforts toward particular ideals. Starting at Level 6 of any Affinity you will automatically gain access to 5 Trait slots; Culture and Industry Traits as well as another slot for Domestic, Political, and Military Traits.

These 5 slot do not overlap with standard Traits and must be Affinity Traits. Each Affinity will grant you a choice between 2 Traits for each slot. These require Diplomatic Capital to be activated and will provide Agreements just as the standard Traits do.

In order to access Tier 2 you need Level 9 of the appropriate Affinity. And in order to access Tier 3 you need level 12 of the appropriate Affinity. However the diplomatic capital cost for acquiring or upgrading traits is the same as standard Traits, but the cost scales independent from standard Traits.

Switching to the alternate option of the Trait slot you currently have active will cost Diplomatic Capital but does not incur any penalty.

If you have Level 6 in another Affinity, you may swap out a currently active Trait to that of another Affinity, but doing so will cause a few turns of unrest in which you will not gain the benefits of your Affinity Traits (your normal Traits continue working without issue).

Harmony

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Purity

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Supremacy

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Thanks:

Special Thanks to Galgus for his collaborative efforts!

Josephias · Aug 6, 2015

I would not hardlock it that much, but maybe considering affinity level requirements for some traits could be interesting.

DefiantMars · Aug 6, 2015

I want to see how the new affinity wheel bonuses work because right now it just feels wrong that you can get every perk from every affinity. The inclusion of the Hybrids throws more confusion into the mix. This concept is very much a first draft. But the intent was to emphasize some of the aspects of the Affinities and let players create a more personalized vision of Affinity

The issue that I was running into while drafting was that I think the players should have time to get through some of the base traits before delving into the Affinity ones. Level 6 is when an affinity becomes dominant if I'm not mistaken. Though I admit that it might be too late. Making a scaling affinity requirement is probably better, but I was failing at coming up with an simple yet elegant solution. I figured it would be better to show what I had then wrack my brain trying to come up with the "best possible" system before sharing.

Galgus · Aug 6, 2015

I like this system as a way to differentiate gameplay based on affinity, something that is sorely needed to make the gameplay more interesting and the setting more immersive.

Though I worry that it may be difficult to create good trade-offs with the options while preserving a solid affinity theme.

I assume that hybrid affinities would simply choose between traits of both affinities for the five slots?

Also, would buying a trait be constrained by one's affinity?

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the bonuses.
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Harmony
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Adaptive - Good to tie Harmony in with Miasma and native resources solidly, incredibly strong. Worker speed could be tied to the contract.

Sustainable - Personally I'd shift the Hybridized Crops contract to be this one's primary and make it stronger, to have either more food everywhere or a ton of food in cities with the right resources. The current bonus could be the contract, called Urban Gardening.
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Territorial - This feels like it could be stronger, with more health and perhaps culture for Strategic Resources in a scaling system.

Environmentalist - Oh, I love giving Harmony reason to keep nests in their territory. Well done.
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Predatory - Good to see an Alien focused trait and an expansion of heal on kill. The Alien units under control could be the other trait. Maybe the Contract could give the other player a Siege Worm or Kraken?

Mobile - I think this just needs a bonus in rough terrain and Miasma to work well, playing on the guerrilla warfare theme.
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Inspired - Solid building bonus. Perhaps Planetary Insight could give Culture from Alien Nests.

Conservationist - Love giving Harmony a reason to care about Forests. The contract could be called National Parks and give culture to unimproved tiles, perhaps.
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Symbiotic - I like the basic resource theme for Harmony. Perhaps the contract could be renamed Organic Construction, granting a flat production bonus in cities.

Clean - This one feels lackluster to me. Maybe it could give some bonus production dependent on high health levels. The contract could be called Recycling Initiative and grant some health per building.
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Purity
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Preservationist - I might rename this to Monumental, focusing on beautiful architecture inspired by the past. It could grant percent a Culture and Production bonus from Wonders. The contract could be Renovation, giving a flat Culture bonus from Wonders.

Terraforming - I like this idea, though I worry that both boosting Terrascape yields and making them cost less may phase out other improvements - unless the bonus to non-terrascape improvements was stronger.
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Prudent - Fits this theme of expanding on what has been done in the capital. The contract could be called City Planning, giving some production when constructing buildings.

Idealistic - Could be +1 Production for every 4 Culture generated in each city. Contract gives a small percent boost to Culture generation.
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Entrenched - I'd change this one to while defending personally, which has precedence in Purity. Protective Measures fits well.

Lustrative - Personally I'd amp the culture bonus up to 10x Alien combat strength - fun stuff from my mod experience. As of now it would rarely matter. The contract is good, though I may rename it Nest Salvage.
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Nostalgic - Great fit.

Nationalistic - Perhaps doubles the bonuses of one's Sponsor trait, with a similar contract? It would focus on the sponsor's specific history rather than general nostalgia.
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Acquisitive - Good for Purity's focus on terran development.

Automative - The name could indicate trying to maximize free time rather than production with more automated processes. Contract could be called Time Saving, giving a small Health bonus from trade routes.
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Supremacy
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Experimental - Good theme. I may rename the contract to Research Agreement, giving a small amount of Science from trade routes.

Cybernetic - I love the theme of this one as well. Colonial Hypercomputers could, maybe, give a little Science per specialist.
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Analytical - +1/ +1.5/ +2 Science from Specialists. Contract - Research Agreement - +1/ +1.5/ +2 Science from Science specialists.

Austere - +2/ +4/ +6 Energy from Specialists. Contract - Efficiency Evaluations - +2/ +4/ +6 Energy from Trader specialists.
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Networked - +5%/ +10%/ +15% Combat Strength for units under a Satellite. Command Nexus - +3/ 5/ 7 Orbit Coverage from Cities.

Optimized - -10%/ -20%/ -30% Production costs for units. Contract - Refined Engineering - -10%/ -20%/ -30% unit maintenance.
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Utilitarian - Works well, fits the big city theme.. Contract - Urban Planning - +5 Energy in cities with 10 or more buildings.

Autonomous - Good for the uncaring about the environment theme. Perhaps Algorithm could give +2 Energy per city, via optimizing systems?

Sniperian · Aug 6, 2015

This would at least make a nice mod concept! though I wouldn't mind it in the base game either way.

DefiantMars · Aug 7, 2015

Galgus said:
I like this system as a way to differentiate gameplay based on affinity, something that is sorely needed to make the gameplay more interesting and the setting more immersive. Though I worry that it may be difficult to create good trade-offs with the options while preserving a solid affinity theme.

Noted. I definitely share that concern. There needs to be big enough incentive for each choice.

I assume that hybrid affinities would simply choose between traits of both affinities for the five slots?

Also, would buying a trait be constrained by one's affinity?

Unless someone has a better suggestion I've been operating on the assumption of "Yes" to the both of those questions.

I'm basically taking any and all ideas. I want to at least get something in every field and then work from there. Many are from or derived from our previous conversation.

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HARMONY

Spoiler :

Adaptive - Good to tie Harmony in with Miasma and native resources solidly, incredibly strong. Worker speed could be tied to the contract.

Sustainable - Personally I'd shift the Hybridized Crops contract to be this one's primary and make it stronger, to have either more food everywhere or a ton of food in cities with the right resources. The current bonus could be the contract, called Urban Gardening.

Sure! I'll change that.

Territorial - This feels like it could be stronger, with more health and perhaps culture for Strategic Resources in a scaling system.

Environmentalist - Oh, I love giving Harmony reason to keep nests in their territory. Well done.

I'm worried about loading up so much culture on everything, I think

Environmentalist is perhaps my favorite out of any of the Harmony ideas. This one came naturally (no pun intended) which is probably why I like it so much. Although I have to say that haven't sold myself on the Agreement.

Predatory - Good to see an Alien focused trait and an expansion of heal on kill. The Alien units under control could be the other trait. Maybe the Contract could give the other player a Siege Worm or Kraken?

Mobile - I think this just needs a bonus in rough terrain and Miasma to work well, playing on the guerrilla warfare theme.

I'm a bit fond of having the Strength to aliens under your command. It has synergy with the Environmental bonus. I'm not sure how giving players aliens units would work. A system would have to been created. For Mobile, I'm still debating the what that means in terms of gameplay.

Inspired - Solid building bonus. Perhaps Planetary Insight could give Culture from Alien Nests.

Conservationist - Love giving Harmony a reason to care about Forests. The contract could be called National Parks and give culture to unimproved tiles, perhaps.

I'm more inclined to say Science from nests instead of Culture. Its stronger but it might give other players that may even be Purity or Supremacy some incentive to not wipe out the nest.

Symbiotic - I like the basic resource theme for Harmony. Perhaps the contract could be renamed Organic Construction, granting a flat production bonus in cities.

Clean - This one feels lackluster to me. Maybe it could give some bonus production dependent on high health levels. The contract could be called Recycling Initiative and grant some health per building.

No argument about Clean. It was meant as a nod to Alpha Centauri, but.... bleh. I like the idea of the health from buildings, but I'm not sold on the name.

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PURITY

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Terraforming - I like this idea, though I worry that both boosting Terrascape yields and making them cost less may phase out other improvements - unless the bonus to non-terrascape improvements was stronger.

I like the idea of Monumentalist, but I think the effects would be more situational than that of the Terraforming trait, depending on how your game is going. But I think you're right, about the Terrascapes. If you get the Utopian Landscaping agreement from another Purity Sponsor and you have this Trait yourself, it could get out of hand very quickly. I need to find an alternative.

Prudent - Fits this theme of expanding on what has been done in the capital. The contract could be called City Planning, giving some production when constructing buildings.

Idealistic - Could be +1 Production for every 4 Culture generated in each city. Contract gives a small percent boost to Culture generation.

I'm not sure I agree about the tie between the word Prudent and building what the capital has. Wise sure, but prudent? I don't think my personal connotation matches. I'll change it to what you've suggested for now.

Entrenched - I'd change this one to while defending personally, which has precedence in Purity. Protective Measures fits well.

Lustrative - Personally I'd amp the culture bonus up to 10x Alien combat strength - fun stuff from my mod experience. As of now it would rarely matter. The contract is good, though I may rename it Nest Salvage.

I wanted to put on something different for the Entrenched, but defense just makes too much sense for Purity. The culture value is probably way too conservative. Doesn't that mean killing a Kraken would give 520 culture. x10 isn't bad for basically everything besides the top dogs of Alien units. Whatever, I requires investment to get to it should be okay.... should. I tried to go for a bit more zealous name here, but it does feel out of place.

Nostalgic - Great fit.

Nationalistic - Perhaps doubles the bonuses of one's Sponsor trait, with a similar contract? It would focus on the sponsor's specific history rather than general nostalgia.

Memorial Services was one that felt really natural. I think its simple but elegant and flavorful. I see issues with the Nationalistic idea. With the incomparables of the Character Traits which can already be advanced, I don't know how this would would work out. Too many variables for my taste.

Acquisitive - Good for Purity's focus on terran development.

Automative - The name could indicate trying to maximize free time rather than production with more automated processes. Contract could be called Time Saving,
giving a small Health bonus from trade routes.

I'm debating if the Craftsmanship Agreement should be a percent increase to the trade route or a flat one. Automative might invoke too much of a Supremacy vibe, though I do understand what you're saying.

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SUPREMACY

Spoiler :

Experimental - Good theme. I may rename the contract to Research Agreement, giving a small amount of Science from trade routes.

Cybernetic - I love the theme of this one as well. Colonial Hypercomputers could, maybe, give a little Science per specialist.

I trimmed back the version you suggested before, it was just a bit too much. I think there are more wonder techs with BERT so it would be very potent. Making Prototype Augmentations mirror the Purity Craftsmanship seems like it would be interesting. Science is such a dangerous yield in Civ games. On the other hand, BE specialists are on the pitiful side.

Analytical - +1/ +1.5/ +2 Science from Specialists. Contract - Research Agreement - +1/ +1.5/ +2 Science from Science specialists.

Austere - +2/ +4/ +6 Energy from Specialists. Contract - Efficiency Evaluations - +2/ +4/ +6 Energy from Trader specialists.

Similar to the Terrascape issue, I see there being issues with stacking these bonuses on Specialists.

Networked - +5%/ +10%/ +15% Combat Strength for units under a Satellite. Command Nexus - +3/ 5/ 7 Orbit Coverage from Cities.

Optimized - -10%/ -20%/ -30% Production costs for units. Contract - Refined Engineering - -10%/ -20%/ -30% unit maintenance.

The combat strength under satellite coverage is an interesting perk. But this is basically a duplicate of the Integrated perk from the Base Traits. It Might need more oomph. Command Nexus is the Aspirational Trait on steroids. So much orbital coverage, but I like it. Ironically I think the Optimized ideas are nice but bland.

Utilitarian - Works well, fits the big city theme.. Contract - Urban Planning - +5 Energy in cities with 10 or more buildings.

Autonomous - Good for the uncaring about the environment theme. Perhaps Algorithm could give +2 Energy per city, via optimizing systems?

I maneuvered some of the stuff around, I think what I've put might fit the themes better.

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Thank you so much for your feedback. As usual its fantastic.

Galgus · Aug 7, 2015

If we go with affinity limiting contracts that can be bought, perhaps it could use an increasing cost system.

Relations with the sponsor in question could provide a discount or cost increase in purchasing from them as well as how closely one's ratio of affinity matches up with theirs.
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In retrospect, the food from miasma not scaling with upgrade may be a problem.

Is it feasible for it to scale with partial values like .5 / 1 / 1.5 food?
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Good point on overusing culture, though I do think the health should at least scale to 1 / 2 / 3.

Its fun to work in diplomatic capital into the traits, though I wonder if it could or should be used more broadly.

Perhaps the agreement could give a bonus on Alien nests to other colonies?
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Honestly I'm worried that the Alien strength boost may not be enough to make them useful come late game.

On a similar note I'm not sure how useful a contract to get an Alien would be, but it just sounds fun.

With Mobile, I like to think of it in terms of Harmony using the environment to their advantage in a more mundane way than usual - moving through forests and such.
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Science works well for the Alien Nest contract, I probably overuse culture.

There does need to be some focus on studying the Aliens rather than simply admiring them, after all.
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Honestly I had trouble thinking of a fitting bonus for clean, and I'm not really that happy with the main bonus or the contract theme.

For an alternate idea, perhaps the main bonus could give a 10% / 20% / 30% population growth bonus.

For a new contract name, perhaps something like Pollution Mitigation.
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I like the theme of Monumentalist, but I'm not sure that the current bonus represents it well.

As a somewhat random idea, perhaps all Domes connected to the capital by adjacency or other Domes could gain a Culture bonus, making a possible chain of domes.

I kind of like how it potentially synergizes the with Supremacy wonder trait in Purity/ Supremacy, but the theme seems off.

In my opinion, the Terraforming bonus should allow players to either make clusters of terrascapes or space them so that they are surrounded by non-terrascape improvements while keeping both viable relative to the other.

To that end I think it would be best if it granted a larger non-stacking bonus to non-Terrascape adjacent tiles and a small, but stacking bonus for other Terrascapes without a maintenance reduction.
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Its kind of prudent to build on past successes rather than try something new and risky, though its admittedly not a perfect fit.

Idealistic admittedly stems from my desire for Purity to have other yield bonuses for generating high amounts of culture.

I'm curious as to what you think of it.
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That sounds like a lot of culture, but you have to consider how relatively infrequent killing Aliens is relative to the number of "Next Turns", how high culture output gets later, and how high Virtue costs end up scaling to.

Though my views may be distorted by strictly playing Marathon.

The ritual name went a bit too far in my opinion, since Purity only seems to get starry eyed and poetic with human heritage.
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Agreed, memorial service just fits the theme perfectly. Elegant and flavorful is a good goal to shoot for with design.

I kind of agree that the Nationalistic trait may not always work out well, but at the same time I love the flavor of it and the dichotomy it makes with its counterpart.

And in theory all of the sponsor bonuses are balanced against each other.
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I'm a bit worried that Craftsmanship may be too strong as is with as many trade routes as there can be. Perhaps the value could be reduced or it could be made non-stacking with itself.

I think the leisurely idea behind Automative works, but I agree that the word has some Supremacy implications.

I considered Utopian, but it also isn't quite right and makes the other option sound bad.

Perhaps Relaxed could be a better term?

I wonder if a Science bonus for Culture would be better so as not to overlap with the Idealistic virtue, if some iteration of that is used.
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I'm kind of worried that Experimental may feel lackluster if it doesn't give a bonus for Wonders, though it may not be an issue with the ability to pay to swap.

I'm not confident on the contracts, since as you said Science is a dangerous yield.

BE specialists definitely need help, though it should be more comprehensive than an Affinity contract.
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This may have gone over the top, but its partially based on Specialists being weak in the base game.

I also like the idea of Supremacy as the most specialist focused affinity.
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Integrating Satellites into the battlefield feels very Supremacy in my opinion. Perhaps it could also give a small adjacent unit bonus?

Aspirational feels rather tame in my opinion, and Affinity traits can afford to be strong.

With Optimized I was thinking in terms of mass production, but it may either be too bland or not pushed enough.
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I like the divide between wide vs tall for the Supremacy Industry slot now, and they both fit thematically.
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Always a pleasure discussing design with you.

DefiantMars · Aug 7, 2015

Harmony

Spoiler :

Purity

Spoiler :

Idealistic admittedly stems from my desire for Purity to have other yield bonuses for generating high amounts of culture.

I'm curious as to what you think of it.

Its not a bad idea, I'm just trying to figure out how effective it is and maybe streamline the perk.

That sounds like a lot of culture, but you have to consider how relatively infrequent killing Aliens is relative to the number of "Next Turns", how high culture output gets later, and how high Virtue costs end up scaling to.

Though my views may be distorted by strictly playing Marathon.

Fair enough. The scaling should help alleviate some of that edge.

Agreed, memorial service just fits the theme perfectly. Elegant and flavorful is a good goal to shoot for with design.

I kind of agree that the Nationalistic trait may not always work out well, but at the same time I love the flavor of it and the dichotomy it makes with its counterpart.

And in theory all of the sponsor bonuses are balanced against each other.

Yes, but I think this one might cause some unpredictable snowballing.

I'm a bit worried that Craftsmanship may be too strong as is with as many trade routes as there can be. Perhaps the value could be reduced or it could be made non-stacking with itself.

I forgot to factor in Hutama's agreement that can give you up to 3 more routes in your capital. This needs some kind of limit on it.

I think the leisurely idea behind Automative works, but I agree that the word has some Supremacy implications.

I considered Utopian, but it also isn't quite right and makes the other option sound bad.

Perhaps Relaxed could be a better term?

I'll be honest, I'm stumped here.

I wonder if a Science bonus for Culture would be better so as not to overlap with the Idealistic virtue, if some iteration of that is used.

Supremacy

Spoiler :

I'm kind of worried that Experimental may feel lackluster if it doesn't give a bonus for Wonders, though it may not be an issue with the ability to pay to swap.

I'm not confident on the contracts, since as you said Science is a dangerous yield.

Click to expand...

These definitely require much more thought.

BE specialists definitely need help, though it should be more comprehensive than an Affinity contract.

This may have gone over the top, but its partially based on Specialists being weak in the base game.

I also like the idea of Supremacy as the most specialist focused affinity.

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I can definitely agree to both of these statements.

Integrating Satellites into the battlefield feels very Supremacy in my opinion. Perhaps it could also give a small adjacent unit bonus?

Aspirational feels rather tame in my opinion, and Affinity traits can afford to be strong.

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Satellite uplinking might make using a Rocktopus more appealing, a sort of mobile buff and support fire unit.

I wonder if the Aspirational agreement is any good since they've laid claim that the less potent traits have better deals.

I like the divide between wide vs tall for the Supremacy Industry slot now, and they both fit thematically.

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That wasn't even a conscious decision. I was just trying to get the effects to align better with the name.

Always a pleasure discussing design with you.

Click to expand...

Likewise.

Galgus · Aug 7, 2015

On Adaptive, if partial yields don't work perhaps the scaling bit could be a growth boost?
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Perhaps the Environmentalist agreement could give Health or Culture?
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For Alien units to be useful in battle I think it would be best if Harmony could either buff them up somehow or combine them into Xeno Swarms. somehow.

I think the Minuteman combat style from Civ 5 fits them well, moving quickly through rough terrain and fighting well in it.
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Hard to say on the Sustainable deal.

Another direction could be some bonus for excess health - like Clean giving Culture for every point of extra health or maybe enhancing the high health bonuses.
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Ideally Culture conversion perks should be strong when focusing on Culture with the other option for players who are not.
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I play Civ 5 with various on-kill bonuses boosted in a similar manner, and aside a very fast progression early they tend to fall in line with more static yield generation.
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Off the top of my head I'd be most worried about ARC with Nationalistic, though the numbers could be tweaked to balance between sponsors.

I'm still hooked on its flavor.
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Per trade route bonuses worry me somewhat because of how many there can be, and how they can be focused.
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It kind of has Agency Supremacy / Purity connotations, but perhaps the word could be Attended, or perhaps Unburdened?

More and more I'm thinking it should be a Science conversion bonus from Culture, symbolizing freeing up people's time to create and invent.

Aquisitive's production bonus per city should probably scale at 2 / 4 / 6.
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Perhaps Experimental could give a 10 / 20 / 30% boost to Science generation in cities with a wonder?

Or perhaps a more tame 5 / 10 / 15%
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I still think the Rocktopus belongs in Purity / Harmony with its background, so it may be hard for Supremacy to access.

Mostly I was thinking they would use it with the Tacnet Hub or the bombardment Satellites.

Or the civilian satellites on the defensive, I suppose.

Personally I don't see how less potent traits with better deals would be balanced well.

Other colonies benefit more from you, but you get diplomatic capital from it. Does that actually put you ahead?

Ideally, in my opinion, all traits and contracts should be good.

DefiantMars · Aug 9, 2015

I've done a pass on the entire list of Traits and Agreements. I'm still trying to figure out what a the appropriate level of power is for the Affinity Traits while trying to make them appealing in their own ways.

I'm struggling in making them some of these perks be useful in the setting of Rising Tide. Since sea gameplay varies greatly from land gamplay.

I've also added small flavor lines to accompany each of the Traits in hopes of giving a little perspective on the mindset of each and how the society may look if they took on that trait.

Galgus · Aug 9, 2015

I like the addition of flavor text both to improve the immersion and force some designer evaluation on how well the trait fits.

With more stuff nailed down on a flavor level, I'll try to give more specific balance suggestions.

For now I'll just cover Harmony, both because it is late and to focus feedback.

I think +1 Food for all tiles with Miasma is a good power target to balance level three traits around.

Which is to say I think Traits should be very strong to be able to compete with it.

Its hard to really suggest good balance proposals for these, but some definitely feel like they are on different power levels.
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With Adaptive, a potential way to make it scale could be Unimproved tiles/ Tiles that grant food/ All tiles grant +1 Food with Miasma.

It's wordy, but players wouldn't really need to read it often.

The building part feels a bit tacked on, like its only purpose is to introduce scaling.
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With Sustainable I'm having some trouble thinking of exactly how many relevant basic resources are around to balance it with.

It has some steep competition with Adaptive which can benefit anywhere.

Theoretically a Sustainable city with three or four relevant basic resources should be a bit insanely taller than a random Adaptive city since many cities would not have the resources.

With that in mind, though this sounds incredibly scary to me, perhaps the Plantation and Work Barge bonuses could be increased to +3 / +5 / +7 Food.

I could be completely off here, but in my head I keep seeing a super-wide Adaptive dominating the relatively tall-focused Sustainable.
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Territorial is giving me a similar uncertainty with how many strategic resource tiles there are.

For a relatively simple change it may make more sense to change the enemy combat strength penalty in your territory to a boost for the player, symbolizing morale and local knowledge of the terrain.

For a change I'm far less certain of, perhaps the Strategic Resource health could be reworked to a +1 Health from Strategic Resources / Organic Resources / All Resources.

This would be a ton of health, but it would be easier to see it somewhat compete with the Harmony Domestic virtues like this.
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I love the theme of Environmentalist, but I think it needs more power to compete with the target power level.

I'd either amp up its bonus for Alien Nests while possibly tossing in some Culture or let it also give a bonus for Paddocks and Aliens within friendly territory.

Of those though, I think Alien Nests should have the highest yields by far.
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Taking a note from some of the announced traits, I think it would be best for Affinity military traits to also give some flavorful, but non-military bonus to balance out.

I'm really not sure on how to do this, though.

Perhaps Predatory's Alien buff could be replaced with the ability to upgrade leashed Aliens, and a Culture and Science bonus for each Alien under one's control.

I have no idea what the values would need to be though - there would be a cap on the number of Aliens one can benefit from.

It feels like the main Harmony military dichotomy is using the Aliens vs relying more on in-house troops.
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On a similar line of thinking, perhaps Mobile could grant a small trade route boost in its second and third upgrades with the extra movement coming in the first.

Would trade range or yield make sense if that concept makes sense?
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Inspired seems fine as a per-city bonus with two buildings needed for investment in both flavor and power.

The contract feels weak though given how sparse Nests are, though it's only a numbers issue.
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Though I'm tempted to throw a health bonus in for the heck of it, Conservation also seems fine.

It's just Culture, but it is *a* *lot* of Culture.
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Symbiotic could potentially be reworked to mirror Sustainable for Paddocks.

With that it could grant Paddocks and improved production-related sea resources +3 / +5 / +7 production.

Somewhat unsure of what this would mean in Rising Tide, though there was some sort of Snail water resource that I think was tied to production.

I think a more organic theme fits Symbiotic better.

With that in mind, this is my attempt at a quote for it.

"The scientists and engineers have become masters of the ranching, extraction, and use of native fauna-derived organic materials."
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I love the theme of Clean, though I think the numbers are somewhat tame for what is, at Utopian health, mostly just a +20% boost to Production, Culture, and Science.

Again, I'll attempt a quote.

"Considerable research and investment have been expended to eliminate negative impact of your colony's industry, recycling wastes and making your cities beautiful and prosperous."

DefiantMars · Aug 9, 2015

Harmony

Spoiler :

With Adaptive, a potential way to make it scale could be Unimproved tiles/ Tiles that grant food/ All tiles grant +1 Food with Miasma.

It's wordy, but players wouldn't really need to read it often.

The building part feels a bit tacked on, like its only purpose is to introduce scaling.

You're right with this. The building was me mentally testing to see what scaling would look like on this perk. Making the food progressively better sounds like a much stronger idea thematically. I'll try it out for now.

With Sustainable I'm having some trouble thinking of exactly how many relevant basic resources are around to balance it with.

It has some steep competition with Adaptive which can benefit anywhere.

Theoretically a Sustainable city with three or four relevant basic resources should be a bit insanely taller than a random Adaptive city since many cities would not have the resources.

With that in mind, though this sounds incredibly scary to me, perhaps the Plantation and Work Barge bonuses could be increased to +3 / +5 / +7 Food.

I could be completely off here, but in my head I keep seeing a super-wide Adaptive dominating the relatively tall-focused Sustainable.

Do you think splitting the difference and making it 2 / 4 / 6 be enough?

Territorial is giving me a similar uncertainty with how many strategic resource tiles there are.

For a relatively simple change it may make more sense to change the enemy combat strength penalty in your territory to a boost for the player, symbolizing morale and local knowledge of the terrain.

No argument here either.

I love the theme of Environmentalist, but I think it needs more power to compete with the target power level.

I'd either amp up its bonus for Alien Nests while possibly tossing in some Culture or let it also give a bonus for Paddocks and Aliens within friendly territory.

Of those though, I think Alien Nests should have the highest yields by far.

I could see +1 or 2 DC for Paddocks. Not sure about Aliens. I have reservations with that since they "embargo" your tiles. But it would introduce the question of whether nor not to build the Ultrasonic Fence.

Taking a note from some of the announced traits, I think it would be best for Affinity military traits to also give some flavorful, but non-military bonus to balance out.

I'm really not sure on how to do this, though.

Perhaps Predatory's Alien buff could be replaced with the ability to upgrade leashed Aliens, and a Culture and Science bonus for each Alien under one's control.

I have no idea what the values would need to be though - there would be a cap on the number of Aliens one can benefit from.

The idea of directly upgrading aliens is interesting, but I think it goes beyond the current scope of this concept. I think that would require a total rework of how aliens work mechanically.

On a similar line of thinking, perhaps Mobile could grant a small trade route boost in its second and third upgrades with the extra movement coming in the first.

Would trade range or yield make sense if that concept makes sense?

Should the Military Traits affect the more civilian components? Right now, I don't think so.

Inspired seems fine as a per-city bonus with two buildings needed for investment in both flavor and power.

The contract feels weak though given how sparse Nests are, though it's only a numbers issue.

Yeah, that definitely needs to be bumped up. Its meant to provide incentive to not wipe out the alien nests even if you're not going Harmony. Not quite sure what the sweet spot for the yield should be.

Though I'm tempted to throw a health bonus in for the heck of it, Conservation also seems fine.

It's just Culture, but it is *a* *lot* of Culture.

Symbiotic could potentially be reworked to mirror Sustainable for Paddocks.

With that it could grant Paddocks and improved production-related sea resources +3 / +5 / +7 production.

Somewhat unsure of what this would mean in Rising Tide, though there was some sort of Snail water resource that I think was tied to production.

I think a more organic theme fits Symbiotic better.

I can definitely agree to that. I think Coral can be but into that category as well. I know it provides Culture and not Production when improved, but I think it fits pretty well with harnessing natural materials.

With that in mind, this is my attempt at a quote for it.

"The scientists and engineers have become masters of the ranching, extraction, and use of native fauna-derived organic materials."

I think that's very fitting. I might reword it a bit but I like it.

I love the theme of Clean, though I think the numbers are somewhat tame for what is, at Utopian health, mostly just a +20% boost to Production, Culture, and Science.

Again, I'll attempt a quote.

"Considerable research and investment have been expended to eliminate negative impact of your colony's industry, recycling wastes and making your cities beautiful and prosperous."

I agree it needs more. I've punched it up by quite a bit, hopefully its more in line. Given that it affects positive and negative Health the way its currently written, hopefully its in line. That's a pretty good quote. I'll put that in as well.

Galgus · Aug 9, 2015

I think Adaptive scaling on tiles it effects should work out with players eventually wanting to upgrade it fully.
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With the competition with Adaptive and limits on how many relevant resources there are, I think the 3 / 5 / 7 bonus is better for balance.

It feels very high, but I think it is appropriate without playtests to go on.
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What is your opinion on expanding the territorial bonus to other resources to replace its current scaling?

I feel like it either needs a higher health yield on the strategic resources or it needs to work with more resources.

Either way I like the focus on Harmony caring about native resources.
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Good point on the Aliens for Environmentalist.

Those DC yields seem low to me, but I can't say anything definitive on them since I don't know how much DC contracts and traits cost.
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Agreed that upgrading Aliens would be a major overhaul, but I think it would be necessary to keep them relevant mid to late game.

For a Predatory contract, I'm still a bit obsessed with the idea of buying a Siege Worm or Kraken. It may be impractical, but I'd call it "War beast contract."
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On military traits affecting civilian components, many of the announced military traits already do that.

I fear that if they literally only help militarily they will always be a last pick unless the player is a total warmonger or is engaged in a serious war that the AI is unlikely to field.

I'd rather not see military traits be the absolute last picks for most players.
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The yield for not wiping out Nests for players who aren't Harmony would need to be fairly large, since they are infrequent and building a Xeno Well on the site could be tempting later on.
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Corral definitely fits as a natural production material, but I'm slightly worried it could come off as, well, unenvironmental.

Then again, maybe the Harmonists found some way to stimulate the growth of corral to essentially grow building material quickly.
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Perhaps the Clean contract could be called "Recycling Drive".

Not sure on it, mostly just brainstorming.
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Purity
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I've been pretty hit and miss with it, but I have a new idea for Monumentalist.

I thought it could be focused on the mineral resources as aesthetically pleasing building materials.

+ 4 / + 7 / +10 Culture from Gold, Copper, and Floatstone.

Contract - Architectural Renovation - +4 / +7 / +10 Culture in cities with five or more buildings.

"Your colony sponsors lavish monumental projects glorifying the best of Earth architecture and the human spirit, inspiring the citizens."
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Energy has be a bit wary on the Terraforming trait, since I think compensating for its maintenance costs makes it feel less unique.

Would +1 Culture / +1 Food / +1 Culture work instead?

Thematically it keeping it focused on Food and Culture seems strongest, though the Terrascape itself has Production from harvestable building materials.

Perhaps Utopian Landscaping could give +1 / +2 / +3 Culture to tiles adjacent to cities.

This is my alternate quote suggestion.

"Terraforming efforts have been refined beyond atmospheric needs into lush and beautiful gardens across your lands."
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To add scaling to Prudent, it could be a 20 / 30 / 40% discount.

The contract could be called Infrastructure Investment, granting 10 / 20 / 30% lower production and energy costs for buildings.

"Your colony has standardized and perfected established best practices in construction, increasing industrial efficiency."
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I like the change to Idealistic, though I think it should be more focused on the virtues component.

I'm still potshotting with DC values, but perhaps something like +3 / +5 / +7 Diplomatic Capital for every 4 virtues.

Not sure on the contract, perhaps Cultural Exchange Program, giving +20 / +30 / +40% Diplomatic Capital generation.

"Your colony glorifies both human heritage and human potential, giving it an inspiring and charismatic presence in world affairs."

(I tried.)
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On the note of giving military traits other bonuses, I'd let both the trait and the contract give a relatively minor +1 / +2 / +3 Health from Rocket Batteries, Defense Perimeters, Surveillance Webs, Command Centers, and Node Banks.
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To try a new name, perhaps the other perk could be called Zealous.

"The colony's Soldiers are seen as noble guardians of humanity's legacy, increasing morale and public support for the military."

It could grant Culture equal to 5X / 10X / 15X enemy combat strength when an enemy unit is killed and a +10 / 15 / 20% Melee Combat Strength when Attacking.

The contract could be Propaganda Campaign, giving the culture component of the bonus.
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Nostalgic works well, but I'd probably boost the Culture bonus to +10 / +20 / +30%.
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With Zealous, I think the Lustrative bonuses work better as the military trait.

I still think that Nationalistic could be the better trait as detailed above.

It seems as if it would balance out well if the Sponsor bonuses are balanced against each other.

"Your colony emphasizes and glorifies their specific cultural heritage on Earth, providing a strong sense of cultural unity."
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I like the change to Acquisitive and how it could stack with Monumental for industrial and aesthetic applications.

The rulers of old bit in the quote feels a bit off to me though, this is my version.

"Your colony places much value in a strong work ethic and ambitiously pursues a better life through industry."

I think that Refined's current contract may fit this trait better, though it may need to be renamed.

Perhaps something like "Management Coordination" to symbolize sharing workplace methods and culture, though it sounds a bit off.
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I think we have different views on what Culture to Production conversion symbolizes.

I view it as a focus on automation of the bulk of labor so that the knowledge and imagination of the colony matter more in its industry than raw work ethic.

The ideal dichotomy with Acquisitive, in my opinion, would be maximizing production vs maximizing leisure.

The numbers also seem a bit small, I'd bump it up to 20 / 30 / 40%

With that theme Relaxed may be a better name, and this quote would fit that theme better.

"Your colony values maximizing leisure over maximizing production, with a new relaxed way of life made possible by automation."

Perhaps the contract could be Automative Investment, giving other cities Cities gain 20 / 30 / 40% of their Culture as Production as well.

(Other colonies wouldn't be likely to benefit as much because they could not afford to build their infrastructure around a bonus that might go away.)
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I'll comment on Supremacy later, it has quite a few blank spaces to cover.

DefiantMars · Aug 10, 2015

Harmony

Spoiler :

Galgus said:
I think Adaptive scaling on tiles it effects should work out with players eventually wanting to upgrade it fully.

With the competition with Adaptive and limits on how many relevant resources there are, I think the 3 / 5 / 7 bonus is better for balance.

It feels very high, but I think it is appropriate without playtests to go on.

This entire idea is like one massive theory. I'm mostly nervous about the use of Weather Control satellites.

What is your opinion on expanding the territorial bonus to other resources to replace its current scaling?

I feel like it either needs a higher health yield on the strategic resources or it needs to work with more resources.

Either way I like the focus on Harmony caring about native resources.

I'm not exactly sure, but the I enjoy the integrated motif that is starting to emerge with Harmony.

Good point on the Aliens for Environmentalist.

Those DC yields seem low to me, but I can't say anything definitive on them since I don't know how much DC contracts and traits cost.

Frankly, we just need more footage. I will most likely update this when Rising Tide gets released.

Agreed that upgrading Aliens would be a major overhaul, but I think it would be necessary to keep them relevant mid to late game.

For a Predatory contract, I'm still a bit obsessed with the idea of buying a Siege Worm or Kraken. It may be impractical, but I'd call it "War beast contract."

The idea of harnessing the fury of colossal aliens sounds like a lot fun. I didn't want to include earlier because I wasn't sure how to make an Agreement that made sense. But I've been giving it more thought and have an idea:

I was thinking that maybe there could be a timer. Like every "x" number of turns an alien unit spawns at your capital. And you can choose if you want land or sea aliens (so you don't have land units stuck on islands on an Atlantean map).

The strength could go up with relationship. So maybe it starts a trio of wolf beetles/rippers goes up to a trio of raptor bugs/sea dragons up to a pair of siegeworms/krakens.

On military traits affecting civilian components, many of the announced military traits already do that.

I fear that if they literally only help militarily they will always be a last pick unless the player is a total warmonger or is engaged in a serious war that the AI is unlikely to field.

I'd rather not see military traits be the absolute last picks for most players.

I definitely understand what you mean. I'm mostly a builder and am not very experienced in the military aspects. However, I'm very aware of the benefits of having a defensive military. It definitely requires more thought.

The yield for not wiping out Nests for players who aren't Harmony would need to be fairly large, since they are infrequent and building a Xeno Well on the site could be tempting later on.

Maybe a percentage bonus might be more attractive?

Corral definitely fits as a natural production material, but I'm slightly worried it could come off as, well, unenvironmental.

Then again, maybe the Harmonists found some way to stimulate the growth of corral to essentially grow building material quickly.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe they found a way to take a polyps and force them to grow. They're cultivating it somehow already.

Purity

Spoiler :

I've been pretty hit and miss with it, but I have a new idea for Monumentalist.

I thought it could be focused on the mineral resources as aesthetically pleasing building materials.

+ 4 / + 7 / +10 Culture from Gold, Copper, and Floatstone.

Contract - Architectural Renovation - +4 / +7 / +10 Culture in cities with five or more buildings.

"Your colony sponsors lavish monumental projects glorifying the best of Earth architecture and the human spirit, inspiring the citizens."

So. Much. Culture. I do empathize with the cultural drive of Purity, but I feel like its starting to stack up too much. I can see "some from everywhere" but we probably need to curve it somewhere. I think maybe for Monumentalist the bonus should be split between Culture and Production. I think the Contract can stay the same.

Energy has be a bit wary on the Terraforming trait, since I think compensating for its maintenance costs makes it feel less unique.

Would +1 Culture / +1 Food / +1 Culture work instead?

Thematically it keeping it focused on Food and Culture seems strongest, though the Terrascape itself has Production from harvestable building materials.

If that's the case I feel like it should just be +1 Food / +1 Production / +1 Culture. Just to give the ability a bit more diversity.

Perhaps Utopian Landscaping could give +1 / +2 / +3 Culture to tiles adjacent to cities.

This is my alternate quote suggestion.

"Terraforming efforts have been refined beyond atmospheric needs into lush and beautiful gardens across your lands."

I think that Agreement sounds pretty cool. That's some hefty incentive to be on good terms with a Purity sponsor.

To add scaling to Prudent, it could be a 20 / 30 / 40% discount.

The contract could be called Infrastructure Investment, granting 10 / 20 / 30% lower production and energy costs for buildings.

"Your colony has standardized and perfected established best practices in construction, increasing industrial efficiency."

Unless someone can think of something better, I think this is the best course of action for the time being. With the flavor text helping it out, I think it can be justified to players.

I like the change to Idealistic, though I think it should be more focused on the virtues component.

I'm still potshotting with DC values, but perhaps something like +3 / +5 / +7 Diplomatic Capital for every 4 virtues.

Not sure on the contract, perhaps Cultural Exchange Program, giving +20 / +30 / +40% Diplomatic Capital generation.

"Your colony glorifies both human heritage and human potential, giving it an inspiring and charismatic presence in world affairs."

(I tried.)

I actually think I prefer that. I really want to see some more math on DC.

On the note of giving military traits other bonuses, I'd let both the trait and the contract give a relatively minor +1 / +2 / +3 Health from Rocket Batteries, Defense Perimeters, Surveillance Webs, Command Centers, and Node Banks.

Again, Military probably needs to be rethought as a whole. I'm reluctant to stack that much health in a city from buildings, no matter how utopian it could be.

To try a new name, perhaps the other perk could be called Zealous.

"The colony's Soldiers are seen as noble guardians of humanity's legacy, increasing morale and public support for the military."

It could grant Culture equal to 5X / 10X / 15X enemy combat strength when an enemy unit is killed and a +10 / 15 / 20% Melee Combat Strength when Attacking.

The contract could be Propaganda Campaign, giving the culture component of the bonus.

With Zealous, I think the Lustrative bonuses work better as the military trait.

I was avoiding that type of wording because I used the term Fanatical for Supremacy to go along with their religious motif, though it could most certainly apply to any of the affinities when you think about it. I agree with the sentiment and think Lustrative could be moved to Military. But that leaves a gap in Culture.

Nostalgic works well, but I'd probably boost the Culture bonus to +10 / +20 / +30%.

I can agree with that.

I still think that Nationalistic could be the better trait as detailed above.

It seems as if it would balance out well if the Sponsor bonuses are balanced against each other.

"Your colony emphasizes and glorifies their specific cultural heritage on Earth, providing a strong sense of cultural unity."

Its true that it fits well with what Purity stands for, but I just can't bring myself to do it. If Purity is the only affinity that gets to boost the power of sponsor Trait bonuses it would impose an imbalance in the system that I am not willing to deal with. I think it would be too risky.

I like the change to Acquisitive and how it could stack with Monumental for industrial and aesthetic applications.

The rulers of old bit in the quote feels a bit off to me though, this is my version.

"Your colony places much value in a strong work ethic and ambitiously pursues a better life through industry."

I think that Refined's current contract may fit this trait better, though it may need to be renamed.

Perhaps something like "Management Coordination" to symbolize sharing workplace methods and culture, though it sounds a bit off.

Well, I am a filthy Harmonist so I'm not familiar with the exact imagery with which you Purists view yourselves. Forgive my ignorance. :lol:

Anyway,

I think we have different views on what Culture to Production conversion symbolizes.

I view it as a focus on automation of the bulk of labor so that the knowledge and imagination of the colony matter more in its industry than raw work ethic.

The ideal dichotomy with Acquisitive, in my opinion, would be maximizing production vs maximizing leisure.

Yeah, we definitely have differing opinion in how to divide this category. I was treating Acquisitive as an automated industry where the citizens value goods and live in luxury. A sort of combination of your two suggestions. With Refined I was thinking many citizens choose to be hands on, where workshops and apprenticeship are a thing. Perhaps this would be better reflected in a specialist focus.

This is part of the reason I wanted to make this concept. Players may differ in opinion of what the societies of the different affinities can look like.

Here we see the juggling act of making different gameplay and storytelling decisions.

Galgus · Aug 10, 2015

Honestly I think the Weather Controller and Orbital Fabricator satellites shouldn't create resources: the yield boost is enough.

Letting them spawn resources kind of trivializes the importance of settling in resource rich locals and gives excessive city building potential.

But aside from removing that, I'm not sure on the balance.

(And it also makes no sense that Supremacy has the Weather Controller. Orbital Fabricator I can kind of see.)
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I like the idea of a timer Alien spawn for the Predatory contract.
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Yeah, hard to say on DC as of now.
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A defensive military typically doesn't need other bonuses to work.

Things like the Honor tree in Civ 5 were only ever taken by hardcore warmongers - and sometimes they weren't even ideal for warmongering.

In my experience it is more fun to let such bonuses give additional perks to fighting, to help the civilian game in a proactive manner.
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So long as the percent boost was only for that particular city, I think it would be fine for the Alien Nest contract.
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Drastically speeding up growth is definitely in Harmony's corner.
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Purity
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I was thinking of splitting the Monumental bonus between Culture and Production, but in the end I thought culture would be more flavorful.

You may be right that a split between the two is better - helps differentiate it from every other Purity culture bonus.

I basically like the idea of Purity having ways to generate absurd amount of culture with an optional culture conversion path for those who want to focus on it.
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I like that idea for Terraforming.

Production makes sense as both useful materials and an environment better suited to Purity industry.
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Agreed, we need more information on DC.
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In the defense of Health on Defense buildings, they cost a pretty penny of production and don't do anything most of the time.

Flavor-wise it follows the same logic as the Might Public Security virtue - stability through safety.
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Fanatical doesn't really seem to fit Supremacy - if anything they are close-minded and rather cold to anyone not viewing their path as best, not passionate for it.

At least that's my take on Supremacy - I tend to view the affinity as rather utilitarian and detached.
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I still think Nationalistic can be balanced if the sponsor bonuses are balanced.

It only really imposes an imbalance if they aren't balanced...which may be the case, but isn't optimal.
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Xenos fi- I mean, I'm happy to educate you on the philosophy of true humans.
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Personally I view Acquisitive and Relaxed as both utilizing automation, but with a significant philosophical difference behind it.

Acquisitive views it as a way to boost production beyond what was previously possible, increasing the output of every worker.

Relaxed sees it as a way to minimize the time people need to work to maximize free time for other pursuits.

Both are right and both uses overlap, but they choose to focus on different things.

I don't really think hands on workshops make sense for large scale production in this setting - a hobby, sure, and maybe a way to carry on old cultural crafts, but not an industry.
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Most of the time I'm just thinking in terms of fitting flavor with this system - it is much more complicated to balance than a single progression system.

Though having options does help players define their colony on their terms.
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Supremacy
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I still think a bonus for cities with a wonder would help Experimental.

Even a small non-scaling one like 15% could work well.
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Cybernetic works well as a bonus, but if you wanted to it would be easy to flavorfully focus the trait on specialists.
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I guess the dichotomy between Analytical and Austere is looking into new possibilities constantly vs trying to maximize efficiency with a utilitarian mindset.

With that in mind I might go for a science vs energy approach.

So starting with Analytical - +1 Science for all non-Array, non-Node tiles adjacent to Arrays and Nodes. +3 / +5 / +6 Diplomatic Capital for every seven Technologies researched.

Contract - Research Agreement - 15 / 20 / 25% discount on researching leaf technologies.

"Professionals in your colony constantly and eagerly explore new possibilities as technology advances."
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Austere - +2 Energy for all non-Array, non-Node tiles adjacent to Arrays and Nodes. +3 / +5 / +6 Diplomatic Capital for every seven Technologies researched.

Contract - Efficiency Upgrades - +20 / +30 / +40% energy generation.

If these themes overlap too much, perhaps Analytical can be focused on Science for Arrays and Satellites.

"Augmentations have reduced your colony's traditional human needs, allowing for a prosperous uplinked existence that may appear spartan at first glance."
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This wouldn't make Supremacy popular, but perhaps having satellites over or near other cities could boost covert operations with this trait.
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Optimized seems nice, as it caters to mass production from the other direction of being easy to maintain.

"Equipment and robotic units for your colonial military has been streamlined to be easy and inexpensive to maintain, freeing up energy for other uses."

This feels like it could go to -20 / -30 / -40% maintenance cost.
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Perhaps Visionary's contract could boost Science and Culture some?

Think Tanks - -5 / -10 / -15% research and virtue costs.

"The colony is quick to envision and develop new uses for emerging technologies."
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Fanatical feels kind of off to me for previously stated reasons.

Instead I'd suggest a dichotomy based on maximizing production vs looking into new applications for technology.

Developmental - +1 / +2 / +3 Production and Energy from improved sources of Copper, Gold, Titanium, and Firaxite.

"The colony is quick to invest resources gained by increasing production and efficiency to further advance production and efficiency."
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Industry - Utilitarian seems solid.
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To be unoriginal, perhaps this could work as the Autonomous upgrade.

Independent Systems - +1 Energy / +1 Food / +1 Production in every city.
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I just realized there isn't an Energy / Production conversion to Food trait in Supremacy.

I kind of want that to emphasize moving away from natural bodies, but I'm not sure where.

DefiantMars · Aug 10, 2015

Harmony

Spoiler :

Purity

Spoiler :

I was thinking of splitting the Monumental bonus between Culture and Production, but in the end I thought culture would be more flavorful.

You may be right that a split between the two is better - helps differentiate it from every other Purity culture bonus.

I basically like the idea of Purity having ways to generate absurd amount of culture with an optional culture conversion path for those who want to focus on it.

I think its a compelling methodology, we just need to find ways to implement that thought design goal.

I like that idea for Terraforming.

Production makes sense as both useful materials and an environment better suited to Purity industry.

Stack this Terraforming Trait with the Ecoscaping Prosperity Virtue and Terrascapes become very worthwhile improvements.

In the defense of Health on Defense buildings, they cost a pretty penny of production and don't do anything most of the time.

Flavor-wise it follows the same logic as the Might Public Security virtue - stability through safety.

No no, I get it. I think that +15 Health from buildings that make the city harder to capture is a bit much . I think I'll boost the defensive strength scaling and make the health some flat +1. That way each one can take care of a pop and the military effect more potent. Though I could be persuaded to go +2...

I still think Nationalistic can be balanced if the sponsor bonuses are balanced.

It only really imposes an imbalance if they aren't balanced...which may be the case, but isn't optimal.

Basically its just a can of worms that I am NOT willing to open. Its beyond my knowledge base and I would not like to see something that reminds me of the Alien Immune Explorers.

Personally I view Acquisitive and Relaxed as both utilizing automation, but with a significant philosophical difference behind it.

Acquisitive views it as a way to boost production beyond what was previously possible, increasing the output of every worker.

Relaxed sees it as a way to minimize the time people need to work to maximize free time for other pursuits.

Both are right and both uses overlap, but they choose to focus on different things.

I don't really think hands on workshops make sense for large scale production in this setting - a hobby, sure, and maybe a way to carry on old cultural crafts, but not an industry.

Fair enough, but I think that there should be a more clear separation in this case. I'm not convinced that when placed next to each other they are compelling enough.

Supremacy

Spoiler :

I still think a bonus for cities with a wonder would help Experimental.

Even a small non-scaling one like 15% could work well.

I'm wondering if its better to help a player get a wonder or reward having already completed a wonder. I don't disagree, I'm just still thinking about the usefulness.

Cybernetic works well as a bonus, but if you wanted to it would be easy to flavorfully focus the trait on specialists.

I considered that, but I was unsure if it should focus on a particular type of specialist, if it should be all specialist.

The reason I've held up on the Experimental is because I feel like Cybernetic would be the better choice in most cases. Though I suppose you could easily just switch between the two... the way I wrote the system there's not really a penalty for switching focus within the same affinity only if you go to another affinity. Maybe I should put in a "pause period". But at the same time I don't want to hinder the player that much.

I guess the dichotomy between Analytical and Austere is looking into new possibilities constantly vs trying to maximize efficiency with a utilitarian mindset.

With that in mind I might go for a science vs energy approach.

I think that definitely fits into the notions and agenda of Supremacy.

So starting with Analytical - +1 Science for all non-Array, non-Node tiles adjacent to Arrays and Nodes. +3 / +5 / +6 Diplomatic Capital for every seven Technologies researched.

Contract - Research Agreement - 15 / 20 / 25% discount on researching leaf technologies.

"Professionals in your colony constantly and eagerly explore new possibilities as technology advances."

Hot damn, that's one hell of an solid perk. I like the entire thing. I would make it so that the science does not stack so as to avoid obscene amounts of science. No Super Science Space equivalent of Moai!

Austere - +2 Energy for all non-Array, non-Node tiles adjacent to Arrays and Nodes. +3 / +5 / +6 Diplomatic Capital for every seven Technologies researched.

Contract - Efficiency Upgrades - +20 / +30 / +40% energy generation.

If these themes overlap too much, perhaps Analytical can be focused on Science for Arrays and Satellites.

"Augmentations have reduced your colony's traditional human needs, allowing for a prosperous uplinked existence that may appear spartan at first glance."

For Supremacy more than either Harmony or Purity, I like the idea of the same sources giving different effects. The divergent likeness here that doesn't bug me in the same way that the Purity Industry ideas do. It just feel more their speed.

This wouldn't make Supremacy popular, but perhaps having satellites over or near other cities could boost covert operations with this trait.

Tempting... very tempting. Networked needs something else, that's for sure.

Optimized seems nice, as it caters to mass production from the other direction of being easy to maintain.

"Equipment and robotic units for your colonial military has been streamlined to be easy and inexpensive to maintain, freeing up energy for other uses."

This feels like it could go to -20 / -30 / -40% maintenance cost.

I agree. I made it start 5% lower and scale 5% higher, it just makes those level ups a smidge more potent.

Perhaps Visionary's contract could boost Science and Culture some?

Think Tanks - -5 / -10 / -15% research and virtue costs.

"The colony is quick to envision and develop new uses for emerging technologies."

I don't think Elodie would be appreciative of cloning one of her personal agreement options. :lol:

But I admit it would be appropriate.

Fanatical feels kind of off to me for previously stated reasons.

When I think about it, all affinities possess elements of fanaticism. I still think Supremacy has that edge, after all their entire military is evokes religious imagery. But perhaps it would be better to look elsewhere for gameplay elements.

Instead I'd suggest a dichotomy based on maximizing production vs looking into new applications for technology.

Developmental - +1 / +2 / +3 Production and Energy from improved sources of Copper, Gold, Titanium, and Firaxite.

"The colony is quick to invest resources gained by increasing production and efficiency to further advance production and efficiency."

The names have similar connotations but different definitions. Again, for Supremacy it doesn't bother me for whatever reason. I'm just happy to fill up the list.

To be unoriginal, perhaps this could work as the Autonomous upgrade.

Independent Systems - +1 Energy / +1 Food / +1 Production in every city.

I think to fill the fields I'll use this for now and see if I can find a more engaging deal. (Ironic word choice for Autonomous.)

I just realized there isn't an Energy / Production conversion to Food trait in Supremacy.

I kind of want that to emphasize moving away from natural bodies, but I'm not sure where.

You're right. That seems to have slipped through the system. Supremacy needs more work.

We have Harmony and Purity covered between the two of us. What we need is a Supremacist to help out! :mischief:

Galgus · Aug 10, 2015

I don't think +1 movement for civilian units would make any meaningful difference, though I play marathon where unit movement rates to overall progress is in a sane proportion.

I think it makes things more fun and helps vary playstyles to make military traits a proactive way to boost one's colony beyond simply conquering.
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I like how the current Terraforming trait makes Terrascapes very strong without invalidating other tile improvements due to their supportive nature.
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It sounds like a lot of health on defensive buildings, but it has strong competition and requires four buildings per city to maximize - some of which are quite expensive.
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I don't see how Nationalistic is reminiscent of the strange and imbalanced alien immune explorers.

I think I'm generally more willing to suggest crazy designs so long as it fits.
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Making a utopia for humanity is a big part of Purity's vision, and automation is a natural part of that.

I think it works as different philosophies to automation - maximizing production vs the kind of future the producers of Wall-E apparently hate.
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I think part of my issue with get a wonder bonuses is how some are lackluster and how building wonders is relatively infrequent.

If there were a lot more Wonders to choose from, like my heavily modded Civ 5 games, I'd be happier with it.
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Cybernetic works decently as-is, and I suppose keeping traits out of the Specialist system allows them to be buffed in other ways.
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Agreed, the science shouldn't stack.

Moai science would probably be game-breaking.
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Looking back on Austere, I think the Diplomatic Capital boost from Technology may not be fitting.

Perhaps that could be Analytical's think while Austere could grant a +15% / +25% / +35% boost to Energy or somesuch.

It would help differentiate the two somewhat.
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I agree on the military changes.
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Ah, I didn't realize that was one of Elodie's options - hadn't checked.

To differentiate it could be focused on science or culture, possibly.

I'd lean towards culture.
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I agree that the names could be used for similar things with some differences in implication and outlook.

I think that's a decent design for some traits, having similar views with some differences in values.
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I agree that Independent Systems could use something a little more, well, creative.

I'm not entirely sure of where to put energy/ production to Food in Supremacy, though I think it would be good for them to compete with Science generation, since it seems strong enough to make a choice.

Energy conversion could possibly replace the Austere bonus.

Perhaps it would scale at Cities gain Food equal to 30% of their Energy output / ratio increased to 50% / +1 Energy from non-Node tiles adjacent to Nodes. (non-stacking.)

Developmental could potentially have its bonus replaced with Production conversion.

Cities gain Food equal to 30% of their Production output / ratio increased to 50% / +1 Production from Mines, Manufatories, and Firaxite Mines.
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It would be nice to get another opinion, particularly from that kind of player.

DefiantMars · Aug 12, 2015

Harmony

Spoiler :

Purity

Spoiler :

I like how the current Terraforming trait makes Terrascapes very strong without invalidating other tile improvements due to their supportive nature.

I feel this version is more organic to the playstyle. Its gives you the same types of yields as the Terrascape. It also discourages just spamming out the improvement. I think its pretty good.

It sounds like a lot of health on defensive buildings, but it has strong competition and requires four buildings per city to maximize - some of which are quite expensive.

I think I'll increase it to +2 Health. The defending strength I put on there isn't that strong (though I think I will buff it). The Health helps counter the Unhealth from occupied cities. At the same time, if you capture a city with a lot of defense buildings, you will come out ahead of the Health penalty which lets you support a larger city.

I don't see how Nationalistic is reminiscent of the strange and imbalanced alien immune explorers.

I think I'm generally more willing to suggest crazy designs so long as it fits.

There was zero reason to not dip 1 level into Purity for the Explorer immunity. I fear the alternate option in this category would not be competitive with it, unless it was really heavily weighted. Plus the effects would vary greatly due to multiplicative effects. I think it would just be best to find another option.

Making a utopia for humanity is a big part of Purity's vision, and automation is a natural part of that.

I think it works as different philosophies to automation - maximizing production vs the kind of future the producers of Wall-E apparently hate.

Wall-E was hilarious satire in my opinion. I don't think Purity would have that problem because they will not forget about our homeworld, where the people on the ship in Wall-E forgot (Arshia would look at them with scorn.)

This category basically needs its own brainstorming session.

Supremacy

Spoiler :

I think part of my issue with get a wonder bonuses is how some are lackluster and how building wonders is relatively infrequent.

If there were a lot more Wonders to choose from, like my heavily modded Civ 5 games, I'd be happier with it.

I'm not sure what course of action to take here. No option seems like the best fit.

Cybernetic works decently as-is, and I suppose keeping traits out of the Specialist system allows them to be buffed in other ways.

I feel like Specialist bonuses should go in the domestic category... but I'm not sure how to integrate the idea into the existing framework. Cybernetic would be relatively easy, but it would require rethinking Experimental.

Agreed, the science shouldn't stack.

Moai science would probably be game-breaking.

I think that would be truly gamebreaking.

Looking back on Austere, I think the Diplomatic Capital boost from Technology may not be fitting.

Perhaps that could be Analytical's think while Austere could grant a +15% / +25% / +35% boost to Energy or somesuch.

It would help differentiate the two somewhat.

While I agree, I do like the idea of all Political options providing a source of Diplomatic Capital. I think it makes sense for this category and provides incentive for different playstyles. I need an alternative in that case. But I will admit that more power makes more sense.

Ah, I didn't realize that was one of Elodie's options - hadn't checked.

To differentiate it could be focused on science or culture, possibly.

I'd lean towards culture.

Well it is the Culture category after all. Stacking is a thing and Culture output can accelerate snowballing via territory as well as Virtues, which can be very valuable. I'll have to think about it more.

I'm not entirely sure of where to put energy/ production to Food in Supremacy, though I think it would be good for them to compete with Science generation, since it seems strong enough to make a choice.

Energy conversion could possibly replace the Austere bonus.

Perhaps it would scale at Cities gain Food equal to 30% of their Energy output / ratio increased to 50% / +1 Energy from non-Node tiles adjacent to Nodes. (non-stacking.)

With a name like Austere, I definitely think Energy to Food would make sense. I still want to find a way to work Diplo. Cap. into there somehow.

Developmental could potentially have its bonus replaced with Production conversion.

Cities gain Food equal to 30% of their Production output / ratio increased to 50% / +1 Production from Mines, Manufatories, and Firaxite Mines.

A culture dedicated to production. Sounds compelling. I think I'd like to streamline a bonus like that though.

Galgus · Aug 12, 2015

Perhaps Mobile could boost tile improvement rates?

It kind of makes sense from the angle of an army engineering corps.
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I'd still advocate a 1 / 2 / 3 scaling Health bonus on defensive buildings.

The current power budget requires strong bonuses in fully invested traits.

And I still think Zealous would work better for the offensive military trait than Lustrative, with the bonuses expanded to all kills.
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That dip in problem generally plagues the Affinity level bonus system.

With the huge bonuses Purity can get for extra culture in the current iteration, I think Nostalgic would compete well with it.

It would be extremely strong with other culture-providing traits and culture conversion.

I think you underestimate culture in this context.
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Perhaps some of both would work well for Experimental.

Giving cities a 10 / 15 / 20% science boost if they have a Wonder could work on top of current bonuses.
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If Supremacy does get a specialist focus, it may be good to allow players to choose a non-specialist route if they want, like they can somewhat opt out of Culture focus in Purity.
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In a similar line of thinking to the last sentence, I think letting diplomatic capital gain be an option could be best, though slightly more defined roles for the slots could also work well.
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My central idea with Supremacy being able to fade out Food somewhat for Energy and Production substitutes is that they would become more machine-like and need less traditional food.

Whether this was due to uploading or cybernetics could vary between colonies.

DefiantMars · Aug 12, 2015

Harmony

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Purity

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Supremacy

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