New Version - September 24th (9/24)

Gazebo · Sep 24, 2015

Hey all,

New version inbound.

Changelog:

Bugfixes and Enhancements:

Worked a bit more on unit water escorts and unit movement on water generally

Tweaked AI TR logic a bit more (should account a bit more for danger)

Fixed a few policy and belief bugs activating at bad/and or inappropriate times

Fixed a bunch of other, smaller and/or situational bugs from github et. al. (SQL, XML, DLL, etc.)

Added 'adds international trade route' info to help tooltip for techs for CBP

Worked a bit more on AI for minor civs (defense, etc.)

Worked quite a bit more on operational AI for war deployment

Worked a lot on performance issues and other somesuch optimizations

Optimizations and improvements to pathfinder in certain situations

Optimziations and improvements to GG/GA logic, and homeland AI of units generally

Bugfixes for pathing and route cost values

War weariness calculated a little differently now (might need some balancing)

Bugfixes for recruitment, AI operations should take off faster

Traderoutes take into account movement cost (might need balancing)

Less AI worker shuffling, i.e. should spend more time working and less time moving

Added Score value for Military Size and # of CS Allies (odd that these two elements left out of score calc, considering importance)

AI performance on overseas and island-heavy maps greatly improved

Worked a bit on AI peace/war logic, particularly regarding lengthy wars. Wars should start, and end, a little more rapidly.

I welcome the return of early wars...be careful out there.

Balance

Units, Buildings, Policies, Resources

Carrier gains range-4 anti-air capacity (1 strike per turn)

Printing Press (CSD) now +10 culture from philanthropy (was 15%)

Reduced policy branches needed for ideology to 3 (Was 4)

Bumped GA Length bonus from Monopolies to 25 (was 15)

Bumped Growth bonus from Monopolies to 20 (was 15)

Leaders:

Modified Arabian UA: Trade Routes and City Connection roads grant Desert and Plains tiles Food, Culture, and Gold, scaling with Era. Unit movement doubled in Deserts and Plains.

Modified Hunnic UA: All Mounted Melee Units receive the Coercion promotion, and Barbarian units defeated inside Encampments join your side. When you acquire a Grasslands tile naturally, unowned adjacent Grassland tiles are also claimed.

Coercion - chance that defeated land units will join your side

Mayan UA: now unlocks at Mathematics (overperforming if Calendar rushed too quickly)

Mongol UA: Mounted ranged units gain +2 Movement and ignore Zone of Control. Forcefully annex City-States instead of exacting Heavy Tribute, and receive Golden Age Points when you conquer or annex a City-State.

Celtic UA: Buffed yields on Celtic Pantheons across board (Celts underperforming a bit) - modified UA to now generate no religious pressure to or from your cities with your Pantheon (slower religious spread, but you can control who gets your pantheon and who doesn't)

Pantheons:

+2 Faith on Dance/Desert Pantheons (was +1)

Cult of Nature now 1 Culture/Faith per 2 Mountains (within 2 tiles of city - don't have to be worked)

Open Sky now 1 Culture per 2 nearby Plains (within 2 tiles of city - don't have to be worked)

+2 Faith from Purifying Waters (was +1)

Sacred Path now 2 Jungle/2 Forest for bonus (within 2 tiles of city - don't have to be worked)

New version online as of 9:40pm EST.

Enjoy! This is not savegame compatible with previous versions.

G

Funak · Sep 24, 2015

Pantheons:
+2 Faith on Dance/Desert Pantheons (was +1)
Cult of Nature now 1 Culture/Faith per 2 Mountains (within 2 tiles of city - don't have to be worked)
Open Sky now 1 Culture per 2 nearby Plains (within 2 tiles of city - don't have to be worked)
+2 Faith from Purifying Waters (was +1)
Sacred Path now 2 Jungle/2 Forest for bonus (within 2 tiles of city - don't have to be worked)

Why within 2 tiles? I mean I could see it being a slight buff(or nerf depending on how you settle your cities) for mountains.
The other two are just straight nerfs considering you're going to be working all tiles eventually anyways. And sure Open Sky is powerful and might have needed a nerf, but Sacred path is borderline useless unless you're Iroquois or Brazil.
Btw, this isn't really made very clear, but do these tiles need to be within your territory?

Modified Arabian UA: Trade Routes and City Connection roads grant Desert and Plains tiles Food, Culture, and Gold, scaling with Era. Unit movement doubled in Deserts and Plains.

While the UA really wasn't useful every game, I'm not really sure this was the right direction to go with it. But then again you haven't really explained everything so I'll ask some followup questions instead.
Is the bonus for Plains the same as the bonus for deserts?
Is extra movespeed in plains really necessary?
Was the desert-bonus from the UA nerfed as a consequence?
Did you read the thing I wrote about the actual Arabian desert-bonus-yield-increases not triggering as soon as you switch eras?

I welcome the return of early wars...be careful out there.

Was that supposed to be a joke? I've still not had one game where I didn't get DOWed by at least 2 people pre turn 70

Celtic UA: Buffed yields on Celtic Pantheons across board (Celts underperforming a bit) - modified UA to now generate no religious pressure to or from your cities with your Pantheon (slower religious spread, but you can control who gets your pantheon and who doesn't)

Did you just give them the Spanish UA on top of their own one?

Strigvir · Sep 24, 2015

Gazebo said:
Reduced policy branches needed for ideology to 3 (Was 4)

VERY questionable change. I remember in my Austria playthrough I had 2 branches maxed before the medieval era and researching the last Industrial tech while maxing the 4th tree. In the latest Germany playthrough I was 3 techs away from Modern Era with 4 branches maxed, and I haven't took even a single free social policy from wonders, nor I had culture bonus from religion.

phantomaxl1207 · Sep 24, 2015

Celtic UA: Buffed yields on Celtic Pantheons across board (Celts underperforming a bit) - modified UA to now generate no religious pressure to or from your cities with your Pantheon (slower religious spread, but you can control who gets your pantheon and who doesn't)

It never occurred to me that others could use their Pantheon

Carrier gains range-4 anti-air capacity (1 strike per turn)

They do cost Oil, right

Added 'adds international trade route' info to help tooltip for techs for CBP

Danke

Gazebo · Sep 24, 2015

Strigvir said:
VERY questionable change. I remember in my Austria playthrough I had 2 branches maxed before the medieval era and researching the last Industrial tech while maxing the 4th tree. In the latest Germany playthrough I was 3 techs away from Modern Era with 4 branches maxed, and I haven't took even a single free social policy from wonders, nor I had culture bonus from religion.

We'll see. Easy to reverse if need be. I changed it because, in the hundreds of test games I've run, I've never seen the AI get an early ideology from branches.

Why within 2 tiles? I mean I could see it being a slight buff(or nerf depending on how you settle your cities) for mountains.
The other two are just straight nerfs considering you're going to be working all tiles eventually anyways. And sure Open Sky is powerful and might have needed a nerf, but Sacred path is borderline useless unless you're Iroquois or Brazil.
Btw, this isn't really made very clear, but do these tiles need to be within your territory?

It was formerly 3 tiles. So a nerf in one sense, but also a buff in that they don't have to be owned or worked. Is a QOL change and a massive DLL improvement in speed. Compromises have to be made.

Is the bonus for Plains the same as the bonus for deserts?
Is extra movespeed in plains really necessary?
Was the desert-bonus from the UA nerfed as a consequence?
Did you read the thing I wrote about the actual Arabian desert-bonus-yield-increases not triggering as soon as you switch eras?

Yes.
Yes - thematic and tied into the admixture of plains and deserts in the Arabian peninsula.
Yes - given to Huns for Grasslands, if you didn't see.
Yes - fixed (was tied to game era, not player era).

Did you just give them the Spanish UA on top of their own one?

No - Spain is only one way- Celts is two way, and tied to Pantheon.

G

MasterEcabob · Sep 24, 2015

I remember an earlier post suggested a system of points to unlock ideologies, so that you could go full culture and unlock it at four policies, or get three and then build 3 factories, or build the religious founder wonder instead of finishing a fourth policy branch.

Strigvir · Sep 24, 2015

Gazebo said:
We'll see. Easy to reverse if need be. I changed it because, in the hundreds of test games I've run, I've never seen the AI get an early ideology from branches.

Because AI thinks it is a good idea to not work Artist/Writer/Musician slots every single turn.

Funak · Sep 24, 2015

It was formerly 3 tiles. So a nerf in one sense, but also a buff in that they don't have to be owned or worked. Is a QOL change and a massive DLL improvement in speed. Compromises have to be made.

I see, while I'm not going to claim to agree with you on that point, I'll just leave it at that.
Btw, how about handling the faithpart of desert folklore/dance of the aurora the same way? 1 faith for every 2 desert/tundra tiles within 2 range, with the current added yields(minus the faith) still added to improved resources.

Yes - thematic and tied into the admixture of plains and deserts in the Arabian peninsula.

I mostly mean that desert tiles slow you down while plain tiles doesn't so all arabian units will be super-sped-up in plains.

Yes - given to Huns for Grasslands, if you didn't see.

I meant the yields, actually, but I did miss that part

Would still rather have seen a landgrab bonus going to Russia, but I guess this works as well.

Yes - fixed (was tied to game era, not player era).

Nice.

No - Spain is only one way- Celts is two way, and tied to Pantheon.

Still feels a bit like you're overdoing it, but whatever.

Gazebo · Sep 24, 2015

Funak said:
Btw, how about handling the faithpart of desert folklore/dance of the aurora the same way? 1 faith for every 2 desert/tundra tiles within 2 range, with the current added yields(minus the faith) still added to improved resources.

I mostly mean that desert tiles slow you down while plain tiles doesn't so all arabian units will be super-sped-up in plains.

I meant the yields, actually, but I did miss that part Would still rather have seen a landgrab bonus going to Russia, but I guess this works as well.

Still feels a bit like you're overdoing it, but whatever.

I think it works for Desert Folklore and Aurora as is - those tiles tend to come 'en masse' a bit more than others. Plains was handled that way thematically - more plains = more 'open sky.' Diversity in style for terrain pantheons is nice too.

Arabian plains double movement is a buff, and a solid one a that. We'll see how it goes. I think it'll be nice, and it is thematic for Arabia (large population centers, and - in former times - nomadic travel along plains regions of peninsula.

Yields went to Huns to support UI and the theme of nomadic land-grabbers.

Celts got the religion UA change to help them control who gets their pantheon and who doesn't. I think its a fair buff to them, and fixes a problem with them that has existed (to me) since I refreshed their UA. Spain's religion UA element is much more offensive, whereas the Celtic one is purely defensive.

G

Funak · Sep 24, 2015

Gazebo said:
Celts got the religion UA change to help them control who gets their pantheon and who doesn't. I think its a fair buff to them, and fixes a problem with them that has existed (to me) since I refreshed their UA. Spain's religion UA element is much more offensive, whereas the Celtic one is purely defensive.

Being immune to conversion is still way powerful. I mean that's the powerpart of the Spanish ua.

By the way, I've asked this a few times before but I don't think I've gotten a good answer to it. But am I supposed to remove the old CPP files before using the installer again or not?

Gazebo · Sep 24, 2015

Funak said:
Being immune to conversion is still way powerful. I mean that's the powerpart of the Spanish ua.

By the way, I've asked this a few times before but I don't think I've gotten a good answer to it. But am I supposed to remove the old CPP files before using the installer again or not?

Celtic cities are not immune to conversion, that's an important distinction. They just don't accrue religious pressure turn-by-turn. You can still convert their cities with missionaries.

Why did I design it this way? A really rough metaphor for the history of Celtic culture. Celtic culture was quite influential in W. Europe early on, but pressure of Christianity in W. Europe forced it into decline. Elements of the culture remained where it grafted onto the framework of Christianity.

Thus, the Celtic UA gives you a strong pantheon, and makes you immune to natural pressure from other religions. If missionaries come knocking, however, you can't stop them as a pantheon, so the only solution is to form a full religion yourself to protect your cities. So it's powerful, but has some drawback (unlike Spain, which is all power).

In that way, the Celtic religion game becomes one of selective targeting and/or forgoing the Reformation bonus in exchange for keeping your Pantheon/Religion for yourself (unless you end up with 20% of the world's pop, of course).

Re: installer - it should uninstall all files itself. I've used it to no ill-effect that way, but better safe than sorry.

G

Gangrin · Sep 25, 2015

"Carrier gains range-4 anti-air capacity (1 strike per turn)"

apart from the immediate thought "Why the hell one of the most (if not THE most) fragile and juicy target for naval aviation is getting free AA?" i am tempted to question just what use Zeroes and Fighters have now.

"Modified Hunnic UA: All Mounted Melee Units receive the Coercion promotion, and Barbarian units defeated inside Encampments join your side. When you acquire a Grasslands tile naturally, unowned adjacent Grassland tiles are also claimed"

So no more free Flanking? Baww. It's OK though, the Huns really were a little bit on an OP side. But honestly, that coercion thing doesn't ring a bell with them (i can be very wrong, so correct me if i am), but on the other hand, it DOES ring a bell with the mongols.

Speaking of mongols: i am a bit confused. Does new UA imply that all RANGED cav gets +2 Move and ignore ZOC, but all MELEE cav gets a hot slice of nothing?

Maya: thanks, Gazebo, they were just ridiculous. Nerf them, nerf them into oblivion. And Ethiopia after that. I will have my own private version of WLTKD then.

3 policies branches instead of 4: that's good actually. I don't know why everyone say that they complete 4 branches by industrial, from my experience it's just impossible unless you are Poland on steroids or have some insane cultural output through religion and having self-imposed restraint on any kind of expansion, and even than it's highly unlikely. Srsly, for the last half a year i haven't seen even ONE instance of getting an ideology by means other than entering Modern era

Gazebo · Sep 25, 2015

Gangrin said:
"Carrier gains range-4 anti-air capacity (1 strike per turn)"

apart from the immediate thought "Why the hell one of the most (if not THE most) fragile and juicy target for naval aviation is getting free AA?" i am tempted to question just what use Zeroes and Fighters have now.

"Modified Hunnic UA: All Mounted Melee Units receive the Coercion promotion, and Barbarian units defeated inside Encampments join your side. When you acquire a Grasslands tile naturally, unowned adjacent Grassland tiles are also claimed"

So no more free Flanking? Baww. It's OK though, the Huns really were a little bit on an OP side. But honestly, that coercion thing doesn't ring a bell with them (i can be very wrong, so correct me if i am), but on the other hand, it DOES ring a bell with the mongols.

Speaking of mongols: i am a bit confused. Does new UA imply that all RANGED cav gets +2 Move and ignore ZOC, but all MELEE cav gets a hot slice of nothing?

Maya: thanks, Gazebo, they were just ridiculous. Nerf them, nerf them into oblivion. And Ethiopia after that. I will have my own private version of WLTKD then.

3 policies branches instead of 4: that's good actually. I don't know why everyone say that they complete 4 branches by industrial, from my experience it's just impossible unless you are Poland on steroids or have some insane cultural output through religion and having self-imposed restraint on any kind of expansion, and even than it's highly unlikely. Srsly, for the last half a year i haven't seen even ONE instance of getting an ideology by means other than entering Modern era

Carrier got 1 free interception to represent the AA that most carriers have on them. Also helps the AI quite a bit.

Hunnic coercion ties into their bringing together tribes of 'barbarians' in asia and e. europe and using them to smack around the eastern roman empire.

Mongol UA bonus now specifically for ranged mounted, yep. Huns get mounted melee, Mongols do not.

Sardauker · Sep 25, 2015

I also wonder how people think ideologies are so easy to get to, usually play on prince. I feel I usually go heavy with culture, and my last game was the first time in a long time to beat the ai to one. This was while beating down the top two AI's and having double the score then the second place. And still they were only a few turns behind me in getting an ideology. I have to be missing something.

Strigvir · Sep 25, 2015

Since when filling 4 trees was a main way to get ideologies? If you really want to get an ideology earlier, then rush to it through the top part of the tech tree.

Gangrin · Sep 25, 2015

"Carrier got 1 free interception to represent the AA that most carriers have on them"
As did Battleships. And crusiers. And destroyers. Every type of 20th century military ships had them, but it doesn't mean that Carriers do this job better than any other. But "Also helps the AI quite a bit" is an argument enough for me

"Hunnic coercion ties into their bringing together tribes of 'barbarians' in asia and e. europe and using them to smack around the eastern roman empire"
yeah, i totally buy it with their barbarian conversion. But converting defeated "civilized" enemies? Not so much. Romans didn't flock to his banner and didn't start consider themselves Huns. But it's fun, so that's ok

"Mongol UA bonus now specifically for ranged mounted, yep. Huns get mounted melee, Mongols do not"

That's unfortunate. Moving my all-cav army now is even more tedious with their different MS. Also it makes transition into rifle cavalry even more painful. A shame, really. But the other half of the UA is still good, so i'm content overall

Finarvi · Sep 25, 2015

Gazebo said:
[...]
It was formerly 3 tiles. So a nerf in one sense, but also a buff in that they don't have to be owned or worked. Is a QOL change and a massive DLL improvement in speed. Compromises have to be made.
[...]

And it will be easier to count how much you should get from this pantheon (less tiles to count and no overlapping).

Der_Zorn_gottes · Sep 25, 2015

Gazebo said:
Hey all,

Policies

G

Thanks for the update. Could you please elaborate on the policies changes?

skitter · Sep 25, 2015

I like all the changes.

I never unlocked ideology with 4 branches completed, maybe because I play on higher difficulty/don't open tradition often.

The 2 tile radius pantheon feels like a much needed buff to me, because in the early game, when it matters the most, it gives a lot more faith/culture. In the late game, when you have population to work all tiles within 3 tile radius, the extra faith/culture is negligible. And anyway if you stack cities closer than than 6 tiles, you get benefits from all tiles.

Coercion sounds fun, Mayan UA change - YES, Celtic UA change - YES.

Added Score value for Military Size and # of CS Allies (odd that these two elements left out of score calc, considering importance)

Wait what. Deity is going to be hard as f*ck right now

Estebanium · Sep 25, 2015

I believe this is not savegame compatible, right? Damn the curse of beginning a game, while thinking "there is enough time until a patch will be released"..

New Version - September 24th (9/24)

Lord of the Community Patch

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King

Lord of the Community Patch

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Emperor

Deity

Lord of the Community Patch

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Lord of the Community Patch

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