How to Survive Rising Tide Apollo

OK ladies and gents, I'm doing an apollo domination game. Somehow I survived long enough to the very late game, and it is GRUELING (I should've made a story about this but Junior year is pummeling). This thread is long, just warning you. If you hate that, just read this TLDR in brackets [Stay isolated, go industry and might, use spies liberally, forget diplomatic relations, and have a well balanced army.]

In any case here's what you gotta do (or at least what I did):

STAY ISOLATED! This is a big one. An AI opponent is just someone waiting to invade you. The diplomatic overhauls are completely irrelevant since the AI always b!tches and moans about how you don't trade alot, or your military, size, ect. Forget the AI. Stations are your new best friends in the early game. At least they don't backstab you. Bottom line is to expand only when necessary and keep away from the AI for as long as possible. The AI can't kill what they don't see.

GO INDUSTRY AND MIGHT! This is another big one. Industry will allow you to get a substantial amount of energy from trading with stations. They are also stable sources of money due to the fact that they never go to war. If you're in a war, that'll probably change since the AI will hunt your trade routes. There's also the fact that industry will get you more energy and production, maybe even sneak in a few wonders. As for might, you need that so you can reach a high affinity level ASAP. For me this level is purity since I can kill the alien hordes and get science with the might boosts. The science is great for getting affinity techs and unit techs. Might will also grant you double resources, half the army maintenance, a free affinity level, more unit strength, orbital coverage, and lots more. It just might be the best path there is.

If at first you don't succeed, SPY SPY AGAIN! Spies are your friends. Get them ranked up and farm those steal tech&science/siphon missions. Once again, getting high tech is crucial to your survival, because when the AI goes to war you want to match them pound for pound. Having lots of energy is crucial for maintaining those large armies as well. That also means having enough energy to rush critical infrastructure and buildings. Having that extra patrol boat or recycler can make all the difference. Rush buying is crucial to beefing or propping up cities, as well as getting more resources.

DON'T TRY TO SUCK UP TO THE AI! Seriously. As I mentioned earlier the AI will hate you regardless of what you do. Any relationships that reach cooperating are painfully brief, and being allied is a hell of an anomaly. You should invest in killing your neighbors, not being friends with them.

And finally, HAVE A WELL BALANCED ARMY! The AI will SPAM Naval and Ground units like never before. Sea based cities will be lost in 2-3 turns, tops, if you don't have a significant naval presence in that area. Since my cities are usually near resource hotspots it's crucial that I defend them well. That means getting tacnet hubs, orbital lasers (then planet carvers) 4-5 units and a ranged unit each, and the latest in defense buildings. I guarantee you that your stockpiled floatstone, titanium, firaxite, xenomass, and oil will come in handy in the late. Use it well.

So that's it people. If you want to add anything, go ahead. But this is how I survived and thrived.

* Keep in mind that energy is weak resource. 3-4 energy ~= 1 hammer (depending on what you buy and at what game speed). Some virtues are a complete waste of points, like that +5 energy to capital. But +100 energy per turn ~= 25-33 hammers is ok for a single point.

* I usually pick up that diplomatic perk that adds +x science per deal you initiate. On marathon it adds +60 science per turn, which can be a huge bonus in early game.

* If playing on large map I recommend building 2-3 explorer first and get as many artifact as you can. And if you are doing mass exploration you might as well pick up +150 science bonus when pillaging alien nests and research Leash ability for your explorers. Leash alien units, send them to pillage alien nests and send them to hexes with "Progenitor Ruins" until your explorer can get to them (so that AI explorers will be unable to do expedition there). You will gain a lot of affinity points this way and will probably be 3-5 point ahead of AI (even on apollo).

Evgenij said:

* Keep in mind that energy is weak resource. 3-4 energy ~= 1 hammer (depending on what you buy and at what game speed). Some virtues are a complete waste of points, like that +5 energy to capital. But +100 energy per turn ~= 25-33 hammers is ok for a single point.

* I usually pick up that diplomatic perk that adds +x science per deal you initiate. On marathon it adds +60 science per turn, which can be a huge bonus in early game.

* If playing on large map I recommend building 2-3 explorer first and get as many artifact as you can. And if you are doing mass exploration you might as well pick up +150 science bonus when pillaging alien nests and research Leash ability for your explorers. Leash alien units, send them to pillage alien nests and send them to hexes with "Progenitor Ruins" until your explorer can get to them (so that AI explorers will be unable to do expedition there). You will gain a lot of affinity points this way and will probably be 3-5 point ahead of AI (even on apollo).

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that works too, the only problem is that exploring leads to AI encounters and the AI is EVIL!

I've only fully attempted a domination victory once on Apollo but it was way easier than my vanilla BE domination wins.

Basically:
1. Get a pretty standard start in to 5-6 cities teching up hard
2. Go industry (IMO might is nearly useless for any victory type)
3. Get fast fully upgraded gunboats (affinity doesn't even matter too much)
4. Always have 3-4 melee boats on hand
5. Get phasal transporter
6. Take over aquatic and coastal cities with your superior navy, then phase in fully upgraded rovers, for a land assault (where necessary)
7. Have mass manufactories pretty much wherever possible. Once you have phasal transporter, and fully upgraded boats and rovers all other tech is pretty much meaningless. Also in the late game you should have plently of health from the hybrid affinity bonuses. So SPAM manufactories, then spam rovers, phasing in wherever necessary.
8. Colossal and hybrid units can be OK sometimes but rovers are just much more flexible with the extra movement and ability to float across canyons and water.
9. Really take advantage of defensive structures. When you have a gazillion cities and are taking over capitals there's a 100% chance you'll be attacked. Even if you move an army to retake a lost city, its basically too late, you lost a ton of buildings. So get you're cities set up defensively ASAP, especially ones in strategic locations.

EpicWestern said:

I've only fully attempted a domination victory once on Apollo but it was way easier than my vanilla BE domination wins.

Basically:
1. Get a pretty standard start in to 5-6 cities teching up hard
2. Go industry (IMO might is nearly useless for any victory type)
3. Get fast fully upgraded gunboats (affinity doesn't even matter too much)
4. Always have 3-4 melee boats on hand
5. Get phasal transporter
6. Take over aquatic and coastal cities with your superior navy, then phase in fully upgraded rovers, for a land assault (where necessary)
7. Have mass manufactories pretty much wherever possible. Once you have phasal transporter, and fully upgraded boats and rovers all other tech is pretty much meaningless. Also in the late game you should have plently of health from the hybrid affinity bonuses. So SPAM manufactories, then spam rovers, phasing in wherever necessary.
8. Colossal and hybrid units can be OK sometimes but rovers are just much more flexible with the extra movement and ability to float across canyons and water.
9. Really take advantage of defensive structures. When you have a gazillion cities and are taking over capitals there's a 100% chance you'll be attacked. Even if you move an army to retake a lost city, its basically too late, you lost a ton of buildings. So get you're cities set up defensively ASAP, especially ones in strategic locations.

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Can also make use of the Promethean wonder if you're going to build mass manufactures.

EpicWestern said:

I've only fully attempted a domination victory once on Apollo but it was way easier than my vanilla BE domination wins.

Basically:
1. Get a pretty standard start in to 5-6 cities teching up hard
2. Go industry (IMO might is nearly useless for any victory type)
3. Get fast fully upgraded gunboats (affinity doesn't even matter too much)
4. Always have 3-4 melee boats on hand
5. Get phasal transporter
6. Take over aquatic and coastal cities with your superior navy, then phase in fully upgraded rovers, for a land assault (where necessary)
7. Have mass manufactories pretty much wherever possible. Once you have phasal transporter, and fully upgraded boats and rovers all other tech is pretty much meaningless. Also in the late game you should have plently of health from the hybrid affinity bonuses. So SPAM manufactories, then spam rovers, phasing in wherever necessary.
8. Colossal and hybrid units can be OK sometimes but rovers are just much more flexible with the extra movement and ability to float across canyons and water.
9. Really take advantage of defensive structures. When you have a gazillion cities and are taking over capitals there's a 100% chance you'll be attacked. Even if you move an army to retake a lost city, its basically too late, you lost a ton of buildings. So get you're cities set up defensively ASAP, especially ones in strategic locations.

Click to expand...

affinity is extremely necessary considering you need that to upgrade your units lol, that's why I use might as well so that I can get affinities faster.

CaptMikeP said:

affinity is extremely necessary considering you need that to upgrade your units lol, that's why I use might as well so that I can get affinities faster.

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I think EpicWestern is saying that it doesn't really matter which affinities are leveled for the upgrades. This choice does't really matter - which I agree with for the most part.

Might I ask why not prosperity?

Probably for the same reason it wasn't stronger than Industry before Rising Tide - no real benefits other than Health and some growth.

The few Growth Modifiers are still not that important because you'll still plateau at about the same size +2/3 pop.

Health is even easier to get now, so even that strength doesn't come into play anymore.

Industry however has tons of production (and some energy) that help with everything your empire needs and Might has Affinity Modifiers and possible spy benefits if that's what you're going for.

Olodune said:

I think EpicWestern is saying that it doesn't really matter which affinities are leveled for the upgrades. This choice does't really matter - which I agree with for the most part.

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oh...

Ryika said:

Probably for the same reason it wasn't stronger than Industry before Rising Tide - no real benefits other than Health and some growth.

The few Growth Modifiers are still not that important because you'll still plateau at about the same size +2/3 pop.

Health is even easier to get now, so even that strength doesn't come into play anymore.

Industry however has tons of production (and some energy) that help with everything your empire needs and Might has Affinity Modifiers and possible spy benefits if that's what you're going for.

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Hrmmm... :/ I have found Might to be quite useless for what Prosperity could give you.. Plus once you fill out the prosperity tree, you can annex alot of enemy cities at once comfortably and still have alot of a buffer. But I do go after Industry after getting most of the perks in Prosperity.

Currently it doesn't matter which virtue tree you go down. Infinite food & production from internal traderoutes makes anything viable.

My current favourite path is:

Rush the prosperity +3 expeditions, then rush the might +str vs aliens. Viola your explorers have entered god mode.

Callonia said:

Might I ask why not prosperity?

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Probably the "staying isolated part."

If you don't plan to aggressively settle someone's frontiers (basically the opposite of staying isolated in a political context), getting a second city on turn 10 instead of 30 is the end-game difference of 2-3 population points, maybe 100 energy, and a such a minuscule amount of culture that it's not worth noting.

As someone has pointed out, the +health in prosperity offsets its other benefits (quick expansion) in the early game and +health is basically meaningless in the late game because you should be drowning in energy so just buy health buildings.

I think there are prosperity strats that work on Apollo, but staying isolated and going prosperity is probably not a particularly good one. I think it could be interesting to get a high food start, be the AU, stay isolated, and go super-tall. I've done the African Union "right" before and they're a solid sponsor with a unique but familiar feeling that previous civ-players can appreciate.

NukeAJS said:

I think there are prosperity strats that work on Apollo, but staying isolated and going prosperity is probably not a particularly good one. I think it could be interesting to get a high food start, be the AU, stay isolated, and go super-tall. I've done the African Union "right" before and they're a solid sponsor with a unique but familiar feeling that previous civ-players can appreciate.

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I actually think the opposite of this. Prosperity is best when isolated because the tree promotes quick expansion and conversion to cities. That is usually what pisses off your neighbors. So being isolated is good so you don't get rolled early game. Especially if you have water cities. If you expand too quickly with water cities, you won't be able to defend against a military AI that has lvl 2 affinity boats.

I don't see what this being "isolated" is all about. Since Rising Tide you'll be "isolated" 99% of the time, because you can just expand away from your neighbors, into the open sea, unless you're unlucky enough to have an aquatic Civ land right there (which won't happen that often given the size of the oceans and that there are only 2 of them.

Expansion isn't even a big factor in what makes the AI attack you anymore - it's a lot more dependent on what traits the AI chooses. Non-Military ones? Good, you'll be able to please their requests before they turn on you as long as you don't settle new cities near them. It is extremely likely that no wars will take place. Military ones? Well, you're probably going to be attacked because you just can't meet their military needs of unit experience, high-tier units and other useless nonsense - unless you're playing a military strategy yourself of course.

Isolation means not having an AI civ that can march/ship an army to you easily. If you have aquatic cities, any other civ with a navy will target you. If you have a land-locked empire, than isolation means not having an AI land next to you (which I have in several of my games).

I think expansion is a big factor in determining if a civ will attack you or not based on the fact that when I plant my 5th outpost (sometimes even the 4th), I get the message saying some civ is very unhappy with my outpost that I just placed, and a war usually happens soon after. I have this happen in most of my games, whether it's from a Military civ or not.

BroOfTheSun said:

Isolation means not having an AI civ that can march/ship an army to you easily. If you have aquatic cities, any other civ with a navy will target you. If you have a land-locked empire, than isolation means not having an AI land next to you (which I have in several of my games).

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I know the meaning of the word, it just usually does not really apply to Rising Tide. The starts where you cannot settle without offending a neighbor are extremely, extremely rare.

BroOfTheSun said:

I think expansion is a big factor in determining if a civ will attack you or not based on the fact that when I plant my 5th outpost (sometimes even the 4th), I get the message saying some civ is very unhappy with my outpost that I just placed, and a war usually happens soon after. I have this happen in most of my games, whether it's from a Military civ or not.

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Then you're settling to close to other Civilizations.

I'm just speaking from my experience with the game. I've played several games where an AI landed where I was expecting to settle my second or third city. Or when I try for aquatic cities, just having an AI within 3 turns of ship movement away ends up in wars. I also get the message about AI being angry for my new cities, even when they are placed away from any AI. I think number of cities placed in the early game makes other civs angry.

Not much about diplomacy here yet so:

Early on I usually pick the diplomatic agreement that gives you 4/8/12 science per agreement, and then just get as many 25/3 agreements as possible (the free worker one is excellent, but it doesn't really matter).

Getting +60 science/turn for 15 Diplomatic capital/turn in the (very) early game is a pretty good way of catching up to the AI in technology, even on Apollo.

I get why people dislike the FOOS (First Order Optimum Strategy) of Open prosperity, get the colonist, then go into might/industry, but personally I'm still going Prosperity.

There are 3 key policies in my opening: Free Worker, +3 Expeditions(pathfinders), +1 production from basic resources(Nature's bounty).

Here my strategy: open Prosperity, grab the free worker(allows you not take the free worker from the ship and focus on explorers, Relic and Labs), then the +3 expeditions. My 4-5 Explorers can now get massively more sites, and resource pods since they no longer need to return to base, or wait till Sup. 2 till they can do multiple expeditions (or waste the +1 sci from labs)

Pristine artefacts are normally popped immediately, at least the first 3. A production artefact pretty much enables the purchase of a colonist, so this compensates for not getting the free one.

Ok, gift economy is pretty much a waste, but Natures Bounty is amazing and it comes so early in the game. Most cities I settle have around 5 basic resources, that's +5 production/city, which is a massively bigger bonus than industry gives you at this stage of the game.

Now generally I do now jump into another tree (which depends on the situation) to get started and take advantage of the T1 synergy, before going back to take the 2 Health policies as needed.

This is working incredibly well for me on Apollo- so I'm really confused about the hate for this tree amongst high end players.