Very interesting - or even awesome - plan by Finland

Kyriakos · Dec 7, 2015

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...uros-a-month-and-scrap-benefits-a6762226.html

article said:
Finland's government is drawing up plans to give every one of its citizens a basic income of 800 euros (£576) a month and scrap benefits altogether.

A poll commissioned by the agency planning the proposal, the Finnish Social Insurance Institute, showed 69% supported the basic income plan.
Prime Minister Juha Sipila was quote by QZ as backing the idea.
“For me, a basic income means simplifying the social security system,” he said.
The proposal would entitle each Finn to 800 euros tax free each month, which according to Bloomberg, would cost the government 52.2 billion euros a year.

WOW.

You know, Finland had become very unpopular here due to its own lame politicians, but this is a very drastic (and interesting) move indeed.

I hope it will work, and in such a case be emulated. I wouldn't mind having 800 free euros per month either

And yes, it will simplify welfare and in one move cut the gordian knot of bureocracy and other issues there, and at the same time making each citizen wholly responsible for their moves.

Only issue, though (and a very serious one for some) is what happens if someone needs massively costly health-care (surgery/treatement etc).

ori · Dec 7, 2015

basic income schemes so far never suggested removing public health care (of whatever flavor already present in the specific country) - and I seriously doubt the finish suggestion does.

CavLancer · Dec 7, 2015

How do I become a Fin again? I love Reindeer, even know some of their names in a pinch. There's Dancer, Prancer, Vixen ant Blitzen but the most famous Reindeer of all is Adolf. So I'm in touch with the culture. Love doing Lapps when I was younger. Fighting invading Red armies is just the thing for me. Can stop a Soviet tank column with some gas, peanut butter, a few 55 gal drums and some rubbers. Seriously dammit.

Take me, I'm worth the paltry sum.

Agent327 · Dec 7, 2015

I best not comment.

Grisu · Dec 7, 2015

CavLancer said:
How do I become a Fin again?

Kyriakos · Dec 7, 2015

ori said:
basic income schemes so far never suggested removing public health care (of whatever flavor already present in the specific country) - and I seriously doubt the finish suggestion does.

This does, though. Unless you think Finland has an extra 56 billion euros to spend

The money would come from taking away existent public health care, which is less direct (one is insured by the state if he works-- or similar -- so they have free access to hospitals if they get ill).

Let alone that the reason they try to do this is because it will (if it goes well) save money for the state. Just removing non-hospital tied 'benefits' would in no way make up for the 56 billion this would cost.

Grisu · Dec 7, 2015

Kyriakos said:
This does, though. Unless you think Finland has an extra 56 billion euros to spend

The money would come from taking away existent public health care, which is less direct (one is insured by the state if he works-- or similar -- so they have free access to hospitals if they get ill).

Let alone that the reason they try to do this is because it will (if it goes well) save money for the state. Just removing non-hospital tied 'benefits' would in no way make up for the 56 billion this would cost.

Are you sure? I'm not seeing any references to health care in that article.

In any case, Switzerland's set to vote on a similar proposal in 2016. The initiative demands a unconditional basic income for everybody. The exact amount isn't specified, though the proponents suggest CHF 2500.-- (around 2300.--)

I expect it to have about the same chance to get a majority as a snowball in hell

Kyriakos · Dec 7, 2015

^

a) The article speaks of 'benefits', but surely if those are meant just in the money/benefits given to people on state support they would in no way be even a significant fraction of 56 billion euros, for Finland. So that would make their plan one needing massively more state funding, and they are by all means in artificially sustained non-depression now. So if the 56 billion would save them money it would have to mean taking money out from other types of state support, and healthcare is by a huge margin the biggest of those.
I am not seeing any direct plan to limit wages either. But i will be looking at this finnish plan carefully, it sounds interesting and i just hope it won't lead to ruin.

b) Switzerland= Rich. 800 euros for poor Finland, 2300 euros for rich Switzerland, and likely something like 500 euros for our own current ruin

CavLancer · Dec 7, 2015

Its enough money to leave Finland and move to a sunny and warm place so the country might empty out fairly quick once the options became known.

ori · Dec 7, 2015

According to their data social protection (including health care) currently (2013) runs at ~63 billion €. Health Care runs at 15 of that -> 48 is excluding health care. Which is actually quite a large fraction of the proposed 56 billion. These schemes tend to just try and lump all sorts of child/family/unemployment/handicap benefits and state paid pensions together. If health care was to be included in that they would need to completely dismantle their public health care system (which is essentially state run) to start from scratch meaning that Finns would have to go without a functioning health care system for a while - I strongly doubt that that is planned at all.

Kyriakos · Dec 7, 2015

ori said:
According to their data social protection (including health care) currently (2013) runs at ~63 billion €. Health Care runs at 15 of that -> 48 is excluding health care. Which is actually quite a large fraction of the proposed 56 billion. These schemes tend to just try and lump all sorts of child/family/unemployment/handicap benefits and state paid pensions together. If health care was to be included in that they would need to completely dismantle their public health care system (which is essentially state run) to start from scratch meaning that Finns would have to go without a functioning health care system for a while - I strongly doubt that that is planned at all.

Oh, i was not aware they propose to scrap pensions. That indeed would make up for keeping health care.

But surely that is even more drastic... (i hope it works)

BTW: How much is the average pension in Finland? (cause i still doubt they can give 800 euros to all adults by scraping mostly that).

More communist too, given everyone will be receiving the same amount. Winter war loss confirmed :mischief:

(joking; i do hope this will work and influence other euro countries to the right direction)

Grisu · Dec 7, 2015

Kyriakos said:
^

a) The article speaks of 'benefits', but surely if those are meant just in the money/benefits given to people on state support they would in no way be even a significant fraction of 56 billion euros, for Finland. So that would make their plan one needing massively more state funding, and they are by all means in artificially sustained non-depression now. So if the 56 billion would save them money it would have to mean taking money out from other types of state support, and healthcare is by a huge margin the biggest of those.
I am not seeing any direct plan to limit wages either. But i will be looking at this finnish plan carefully, it sounds interesting and i just hope it won't lead to ruin.

b) Switzerland= Rich. 800 euros for poor Finland, 2300 euros for rich Switzerland, and likely something like 500 euros for our own current ruin

I don't think 56bn would be enough if you included heath care...that would probably already make up at least half of it.

The swiss plan is expected to cost 200bn and it doesn't include health care. Supposedly 70bn of it should come directly form already existing benefits like retirement benefits, unemployment benefits, etc.

Grisu · Dec 7, 2015

Kyriakos said:
But surely that is even more drastic... (i hope it works) BTW: How much is the average pension in Finland? (cause i still doubt they can give 800 euros to all adults by scraping mostly that).

I don't know about finland but many places got a three pillar pension system.

Pillar one is the compulsory state pension that everybody gets. I think 800.-- would be rather sensible for that (it's not that much higher in switzerland)

Then there's the second pillar that is paid by employees and employers themselves.. that part would not be affected by this change so they'd still get that on top of the state pension.

Third pillar would be voluntary insurance plans and whatever you put aside by yourselves.

Snerk · Dec 7, 2015

I've always like the idea of a basic income and thus scrapping the bureaucracy behemoth that is benefits. The more labour is automated, the more relevant it becomes. But for it to really work I suspect it will need a progressive hefty tax on wealth. One that I'm doubtful the world is ready for, even Finland. 800 euros a month isn't near enough for single parents and such who are unable to earn a second income. It's a very interesting plan, but not a full commitment to a basic income that can make the benefit model obsolete.

Ryika · Dec 7, 2015

Has been argued about in Germany as well, but most people seem to think that if we were to replace our (frankly dehumanizing) welfare-system people would not have a reason to work anymore. Silly reasoning if you ask me, so... great to see others make the first step. Maybe people here will get a more realistic view of what would happen in the proces.

GoodSarmatian · Dec 7, 2015

It's a very interesting idea that I've been supporting for a long time and I'm curious how this would work out in practice. It also doesn't need to be especially costly for a country if you scrap pensions, unemployment benefits etc, and getting rid of those would also decrease non-wage labor cost.

Ryika said:
Has been argued about in Germany as well, but most people seem to think that if we were to replace our (frankly dehumanizing) welfare-system people would not have a reason to work anymore. Silly reasoning if you ask me, so... great to see others make the first step. Maybe people here will get a more realistic view of what would happen in the proces.

To be fair, it could be a huge blow for our low-wage sector. People who have carreers probably wouldn't quit, but people who have only a job would.
I (university drop-out) would immediately quit my crappy job and go back to uni.

EnglishEdward · Dec 7, 2015

State funded welfare or minimum income make countries attractive to poor migrants.

GoodSarmatian · Dec 7, 2015

EnglishEdward said:
State funded welfare or minimum income make countries attractive to poor migrants.

Do you really believe that immigrants would get the 800 from the day they arrive ?

Leoreth · Dec 7, 2015

GoodSarmatian said:
To be fair, it could be a huge blow for our low-wage sector. People who have carreers probably wouldn't quit, but people who have only a job would.
I (university drop-out) would immediately quit my crappy job and go back to uni.

To be able to pursue a specific career, or just for the sake of being at uni again?

This is a bit personal, so of course you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but it seems like you've got some first hand information on the impact basic income would have on our labor sector.

GoodSarmatian · Dec 7, 2015

Leoreth said:
To be able to pursue a specific career, or just for the sake of being at uni again?

To get a degree and the chance for better jobs. I don't really miss uni that much. I alwas felt a bi out of palce there, and if I returned now I would also be more than a decade older than most students

This is a bit personal, so of course you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but it seems like you've got some first hand information on the impact basic income would have on our labor sector.

I have first hand experience with working jobs that don't fulfill me in any way out of necessity to pay the bills, and most of my colleagues probably feel the same. A lot of jobs in service, construction or logistics would have to increase wages if people don't need to work any more, but I don't believe there would be much extra cost for employers since they also wouldn't have to pay unemployment insurance or social security.

Very interesting - or even awesome - plan by Finland

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