Way too Early Strategy Plans?

Hi guys, granted it's way too early to think about detailed ideas on strategy. Especially with yields and turn times not being available.

But Firaxis really wants us to approach the early game differently everytime, so it'd be an interesting thought experiment to see how you'd approach your early turns.

Assuming population is still a primary driver in Science, Production, and Income....

1. What would you build first? A scout, a Warrior, a Slinger, a building, or a builder?

2. At what point do you feel the builder is necessary?

In my opinion, the fact that the builder instantly improves terrain means that the builder is the most important item since he exponentially improves the city once built.

3. Given the choice between luxury resource, strategic resource, hill and 2 river plains, you only have 3 charges for your builder. What do you do with your first worker?

You could build 2 farms to help food, but you may want the luxury resource to help lift the potential population cap. Or you may want production to build a military or builidngs.

4. Will it ever be optimal to build 2 workers before anything else? Just so you can improve 6 out of your first 8 hexes?

5. Finally, what district will you build first? Holy site for the religion, military district for the barbs, Science district for the tech?

Obviously we don't know enough about the game and it depends on terrain. But it's a fun thought experiment and the need for fighting barbs, upping your pop, and your science will remain constant. ...

Builders are the new micromanagement. Hammers are transformed directly into terrain development, so you just build one every time you reach enough pop.

And builders aren't vulnerable running around your lands, so you can skimp on barbarian defenses more than ever. I'll be building more scouts.

Ed Beach is probably going to make the civics tree overpowered so the monument will be going up.

1) Scout. I always build scouts first

2) I usually build Workers after I've unlocked an improvement for whatever luxury is on hand. However, in Civ VI, I may build a Builder much sooner if population growth is lackluster.

3) I usually go after the resources first, but I could see myself building a trio of farms first in order to pump up population growth in order to get to the first district earlier.

4) I don't foresee that being optimal, but you never know.

5) That really comes down to terrain. All of those unlock at different techs/civics, and you might get Eurekas for some and not others. I think I would prioritize Science and Culture, but I could see throwing a Holy Site up first if there's a good spot or I'm playing a civ that leverages religion as part of its Uniques. You can pump out a few warriors or slingers to deal with barbs before an Encampment becomes necessary.

Horseshoe_Hermi said:

Builders are the new micromanagement. Hammers are transformed directly into terrain development, so you just build one every time you reach enough pop.

And builders aren't vulnerable running around your lands, so you can skimp on barbarian defenses more than ever. I'll be building more scouts.

Ed Beach is probably going to make the civics tree overpowered so the monument will be going up.

Click to expand...

So based on what you're saying, your build order is
Builder
Scout
Monument?

After the monument gets built you'll probably be over 3 pop, would you queue a new builder after that?

Scout very early seems really critical to planning for new cities, maybe more so than in 5.

Early monument to get a decent government as quickly as practical. Honestly, part of it isn't knowing too much about all the mechanics yet but it seems optimal build orders might be a thing of the past.

I would be most pleased if the game allowed a wide range of first choices to be possible, with weights of success modified depending on the parameters (did I move my first colon to pick location of first town? how many turns used to do that? what is around the starting location? what are my civ`s strengths and weaknesses ? and finally what is my style that makes me lean in a certain direction).

I would also like to be able to play and win without having chosen which victory type I go for at the start of the game, but rather choose my victory type depending upon the course of the game. Be able to play a game of options and switches.. evolving strategy not fixed. If possible, that the highest or higher difficulty modes of the game can be played that way and won (though with deep knowledge of the game and very well executed game plan).

(i'm a starcraft brood war player, played all CIV games loved 4 the most)

I can dream, but if CIV6 is that way I will play it a lot

ProMeTheus112 said:

I would be most pleased if the game allowed a wide range of first choices to be possible, with weights of success modified depending on the parameters (did I move my first colon to pick location of capital? how many turns used to do that? what is around the starting location? what are my civ`s strengths and weaknesses ? and finally what is my style that makes me lean in a certain direction).

I would also like to be able to play and win without having chosen which victory type I go for at the start of the game, but rather choose my victory type depending upon the course of the game. Be able to play a game of options and switches.. evolving strategy not fixed. If possible, that the highest or higher difficulty modes of the game can be played that way and won (though with deep knowledge of the game and very well executed game plan).

Click to expand...

I definitely agree. I hated that cultural victories were turn 1 issues you had to handle, you couldnt just "play" your way into a victory. Honestly, that's why I never really go to immortal difficulty.

But having said that, I really think having instant changes from the builder means changing a tike yield from 1 food to 3 or from 1 hammer to 3 really really quickly.

It seems like that will speed everything else along really well.

Horseshoe_Hermi said:

And builders aren't vulnerable running around your lands, so you can skimp on barbarian defenses more than ever. I'll be building more scouts.

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According to what the devs had said, barbarians will be more dangerous than ever, since they come in larger raiding parties and can pillage your districts and buildings as well as your improvements. And you won't have Workers at the ready to repair them for free.

It's not clear how pillaged improvements and buildings are repaired, but it's a pretty good bet it's done by Builders; even if repairs don't cost a build charge (having the cost to repair a structure be the same as the cost to build it seems overly harsh), you'll still have to construct a Builder to do the job, as you probably won't have any standing around.

AriochIV said:

According to what the devs had said, barbarians will be more dangerous than ever, since they come in larger raiding parties and can pillage your districts and buildings as well as your improvements. And you won't have Workers at the ready to repair them for free.

It's not clear how pillaged improvements and buildings are repaired, but it's a pretty good bet it's done by Builders; even if repairs don't cost a build charge (having the cost to repair a structure be the same as the cost to build it seems overly harsh), you'll still have to construct a Builder to do the job, as you probably won't have any standing around.

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I don't think that would be too harsh. If I burn your buildings down you have to rebuild them. In the early game you're going to want to keep development close at hand and establish perimeter scouting and defense. If builders don't have maintenance cost I could see keeping 1 or 2 on standby as well. I'm hoping you can buy them with gold as well.

AriochIV said:

According to what the devs had said, barbarians will be more dangerous than ever, since they come in larger raiding parties and can pillage your districts and buildings as well as your improvements. And you won't have Workers at the ready to repair them for free.

It's not clear how pillaged improvements and buildings are repaired, but it's a pretty good bet it's done by Builders; even if repairs don't cost a build charge (having the cost to repair a structure be the same as the cost to build it seems overly harsh), you'll still have to construct a Builder to do the job, as you probably won't have any standing around.

Click to expand...

Yeah plus early game diplomacy is more geared towards war. I think they've made a conscious effort to make the early game more dangerous and defence oriented. A scout will still probably be everyone's first thing they build, but I think things like more army units, walls, the encampment district, will be quite high up on the list of things you'll need.

AriochIV said:

According to what the devs had said, barbarians will be more dangerous than ever, since they come in larger raiding parties and can pillage your districts and buildings as well as your improvements. And you won't have Workers at the ready to repair them for free.

Click to expand...

Actually, a Builder charge being necessary (coupled with bad news barbs) would seem to prioritize a standing army over infrastructure development. This strikes me as a good thing, in that past Civs haven't really rewarded the player for having a modern standing army unless the player was about to pay an opponent a visit with it.

1) Scout unless they let me Warrior rush again, and I can't see the latter lasting long.

2) Early (assuming no theft, although I think that theft is going to be meh at best due to charge expenditures), but not too early. Terrain improvements are nice, but you do have to consider the problem of spending 40 to get them.

3) Too early to say; depends on how vital the luxury and strategic are. If I can resell them for enough gold (which is available early), the resources are auto-picks. I'm guessing that you'll want > early in the preponderance of cases on the first Builder.

4) Two Builders seems heavy. Granary and Settler seem more likely early moves than second Builder.

5) Absolutely no telling given what little we know.

stroypa said:

Yeah plus early game diplomacy is more geared towards war. I think they've made a conscious effort to make the early game more dangerous and defence oriented. A scout will still probably be everyone's first thing they build, but I think things like more army units, walls, the encampment district, will be quite high up on the list of things you'll need.

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That's a bit different then what I was envisioning but it makes since.

So what's your build order?

Scout
Warrior
Builder
Monument
???

stroypa said:

Yeah plus early game diplomacy is more geared towards war. I think they've made a conscious effort to make the early game more dangerous and defence oriented. A scout will still probably be everyone's first thing they build, but I think things like more army units, walls, the encampment district, will be quite high up on the list of things you'll need.

Click to expand...

God I hope so! I WANT the AI to attack me and make me potentially quit the game. OK I might not say that when it happens but hey! There's just no danger in Civ V...I never feel like the AI is ever going to do anything out of the ordinary. Lets hope the world is a much more realistic, dangerous place in Civ 6.

OnceAKing said:

That's a bit different then what I was envisioning but it makes since.

So what's your build order?

Scout
Warrior
Builder
Monument
???

Click to expand...

Too early to talk detailed build orders because we don't know enough, but maybe it'd be something where you do a 1:1 or 1:2 of defence things v non defence things. e.g.

Scout
Warrior
Builder
Warrior
Monument
Walls
Shrine
Archer
Settler
...

Horseshoe_Hermi said:

And builders aren't vulnerable running around your lands, so you can skimp on barbarian defenses more than ever. I'll be building more scouts..

Click to expand...

hahaha, wait, what?

Past civ games with no solid barbarian defense = Hide your workers until you manage to clear the barbs off your land. Bring your workers out and repair any pillage tiles.

Civ6 = virtually any tile you let be pillaged by a Barbarian, even if it's just one, costs you hammers and time away from building something else. This assumes we need builder charges to repair them. If not, then I assume it's gold or city production (if it's districts). Either way there will surely be an actual cost to repairing tiles this time around.

But hey, feel free to skimp on the defense especially when your cities can't even attack on their own until you unlock and construct walls.

King Jason said:

hahaha, wait, what?

Past civ games with no solid barbarian defense = Hide your workers until you manage to clear the barbs off your land. Bring your workers out and repair any pillage tiles.

Civ6 = virtually any tile you let be pillaged by a Barbarian, even if it's just one, costs you hammers and time away from building something else.

But hey, feel free to skimp on the defense especially when your cities can't even attack on their own until you unlock and construct walls.

Click to expand...

That is a very good point you raise. Cities can't just pick off the random barb that strolls into your city radius. Combine that with the new Barb raiding party mechanic, might be very important to have sufficient defense early.

I think the early game is going to reward exploration and barb hunting. I will probably stay with scouts, warriors, and a slinger for the city center. If we are still working one tile per pop, it may be best to wait until you have 3 pip to build a builder, since it will only take a couple turns to use it up

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Eurekas change everything. Build orders that would have been considered crazy in Civ 5 are now viable, because everything you do in the early game is going to help you unlock different techs and civics.

You'll want to build a scout first if you're playing as a religion civ or a science civ, because they have early game eurekas focused on exploration. You want to find a natural wonder to get the jump on astrology if you're religious, but you want to find a rival civ so you can rush writing if you want to push science.

If you're an aggressive civ though, you might want to start building a military from turn 1 and go barbarian hunting early. The benefit to this is that early game military techs have eurekas that reward you for making military units and being proactive against barbarians.

If you're a cultural civ, you might even consider building a wonder on the very first turn of the game! The Hanging Gardens is an example of a wonder that does not require any techs to unlock and can be constructed right away. Doing this will give you a eureka for the drama and poetry civic, slingshotting you into an early cultural lead.

Making a builder first is going to help you unlock techs like irrigation and masonry, as well as civics like craftsmanship. These will definitely be useful for civs that like to double down on growth and production, but it's not going to be the right answer for every civ.

I think Ivan's right, eurekas are going to be a big driver of the early game choices.

But given that knowledge of your surrounding terrain and getting the freebies is so crucial in Civ and important in strategy games generally, scouts are always bound to be popular regardless of one's research aims.

I have a hard time imagining my standard first build being anything other than a scout. Even putting aside material benefits like ruins and city state rewards, knowing what the map around you looks like is incredibly important in terms of informing every decision you make after your first build. With terrain dependent/enhanced districts and wonders, this will be even more true in Civ VI than it was in Civ V (though I suppose there won't be the pressure of making an early and unchangeable decision between Tradition and Liberty).

The second build will be a much more interesting question. I suspect the answer will often be another scout, but I hope that this is n instance where it makes sense to make different decisions from game to game.