New Version - August 2nd (8/2)

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Gazebo

Lord of the Community Patch
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Hey all,

New version inbound. Mainly bugfixes and AI optimizations.

CP
  • Fixed some AI issues and bugs here and there
  • Addressed some AI unit production logic and expansion logic
  • Fixed a few rare CTD cases
  • Some speed optimizations and potential fixes for desyncs in MP (we shall see)
  • New UI element for tech popup

CBO
  • Research Lab: now +4 science from resources and buildings (Was 3/2), also gives 33% to GS rate in City and +4 science from academies.
  • Concert Tour now gives +3 Happiness, flat, to owner of unit (removed bonus for other player)
  • Halved 'known player' tech modifier, and increase espionage requirements for tech stealing from 700 to 1000
  • Adjusted Industry policies a little:
    Combined land/sea trade route value on Free Trade
    Moved Internal Route yield to Protectionism[/INDENT]
  • Socialist Realism (Order) now People's Army - Military Academies generate +1 Happiness and +3 Culture, get a free one in every city
  • Creative Expression (Freedom) now +2 Culture for Museums, Broadcast Towers, Opera Houses, and Amphitheaters
  • Reduced Policy cost for CERN and Hubble by 1.

Online as of 10:20pm EST. Not savegame compatible.

Installer link: 8-2 VP Installer

Modpack link: EUI VP Full Modpack (8-2)


Cheers,
Gazebo
 
Yes, same thing with the sticky but if you look at it from the folder link you can see the date stamp for file creation is August 2nd. Thanks for the update, will start a game now.
 
I downloaded the file and it says that it was created on 8/2. The Research Lab looks really good.

So do Buildings like the Opera House get 3 Culture from Creative Expression or only 2?
 
Love the RL changes - a concentrated mega-dose!

I'm finishing a hotseat game with 7/27, but will roll right into this.

Thanks again.
 
Great job with "New UI element for tech popup"!
 
Research Lab: now +4 science from resources and buildings (Was 3/2), also gives 33% to GS rate in City and +4 science from academies.
• Concert Tour now gives +3 Happiness, flat, to owner of unit (removed bonus for other player)
• Halved 'known player' tech modifier, and increase espionage requirements for tech stealing from 700 to 1000
• Adjusted Industry policies a little:
Combined land/sea trade route value on Free Trade
Moved Internal Route yield to Protectionism[/INDENT]
• Socialist Realism (Order) now People's Army - Military Academies generate +1 Happiness and +3 Culture, get a free one in every city
• Creative Expression (Freedom) now +2 Culture for Museums, Broadcast Towers, Opera Houses, and Amphitheaters

RL: A good start. This is not going to fix science victory to me outright, but its a solid step in the right direction. I still think you need to boost the spaceship factory to push it further.

Concert Tour: Alright! +3 happiness might be too strong (I was thinking +2) but we can give this a shot.

Halved 'known player' tech modifier, and increase espionage requirements for tech stealing from 700 to 1000: I don't understand this one. Are you making it more difficult to steal tech? I hope not, I generally find after just a few steals that it starts taking 30 or so turns to steal a tech, and I generally do other things with my spies. I do not find tech stealing too difficult at all.

Industry: Don't give in to Funak!:) Why are we giving external routes the break, and forcing people who want to use internal routes (which frankly at this point I still think are weaker in general) to have to wait until the tree is completely filled out? Just combine them and be done with it.

Creative Expression: While it sounds nice, its actually a bad investment. Effectively I am spending a ton of culture on an ideology, to get (maybe) +8 culture per city, perhaps +12 with culture multipliers. That is actually a bad investment, it takes a LOT of culture to get a policy at this point, and border growth has been mostly set at this point in the game. This needs something else to make it worth it, or provide some kind of strong percentage multiplier on those buildings to be worth getting it for culture alone.
 
Industry: Don't give in to Funak!:) Why are we giving external routes the break, and forcing people who want to use internal routes (which frankly at this point I still think are weaker in general) to have to wait until the tree is completely filled out? Just combine them and be done with it.
I never suggested moving the Internal trade-route thing, I thought it fit pretty well on the policy it was currently on. I did however say that having all the trade-route boosts on the same policy makes that policy feel overly weak, as these bonuses are all rather weak and not exactly synergizing with each other(rather the opposite actually).


Creative Expression: While it sounds nice, its actually a bad investment. Effectively I am spending a ton of culture on an ideology, to get (maybe) +8 culture per city, perhaps +12 with culture multipliers. That is actually a bad investment, it takes a LOT of culture to get a policy at this point, and border growth has been mostly set at this point in the game. This needs something else to make it worth it, or provide some kind of strong percentage multiplier on those buildings to be worth getting it for culture alone.
Bad investment? You're not going to pick it to land yourself more polices, you're going to pick it to move through the tenet tree slightly faster and get those tier 3 tenets faster. You're also going to a higher culture-pool (which is good defensively versus tourism victories) and higher tourism output from Hotels and Historical events.

That being said I'm not exactly claiming this is a good tenet, feels like a weaker version of the Industry policy that adds culture and science to custom house bank and stock exchange, but maybe this is the current powerlevel of tenets and I'm simply making a bad comparison.
 
Bad investment? You're not going to pick it to land yourself more polices, you're going to pick it to move through the tenet tree slightly faster and get those tier 3 tenets faster. You're also going to a higher culture-pool (which is good defensively versus tourism victories) and higher tourism output from Hotels and Historical events.

I don't believe that hotels magnify the culture of base buildings, only national wonders...am I mistaken?

And yes you will move through the pool faster....very very slightly faster. Or....I could get a policy that actually gives me a nice benefit for that entire time I am waiting for the next policy. By the time you are getting these tenets, you are moving out of the investment game....and into the reap the rewards of your investments game. Its simply a weak tenant to me.


I never suggested moving the Internal trade-route thing, I thought it fit pretty well on the policy it was currently on. I did however say that having all the trade-route boosts on the same policy makes that policy feel overly weak, as these bonuses are all rather weak and not exactly synergizing with each other(rather the opposite actually).

One thing we can agree on, if you aren't going to combine the internal route with the others....than it should stay where it was on mercantilism. No reason to move it farther back, protectionism needs no help whatsoever:)

I can accept that a policy with just all of them together is too weak....but I think it highlights weakness in the tree right now. There will be many cases where getting that benefit....is no benefit at all. When I pick free trade, I may get a nice solid benefit....or 0 if I'm going into internal trade routes. That's not the way to go with the tree to me. So I say combine them all together, and then keep the poverty benefit. As you said, the three of them together aren't really any stronger, so we can keep the poverty benefit as well.
 
RL: A good start. This is not going to fix science victory to me outright, but its a solid step in the right direction. I still think you need to boost the spaceship factory to push it further.

Spaceship Factory was already recently buffed. I don't think it needs anything else. If we're still hurting for late-game science at this point I think that some buffs to Level-1 science tenets is in order.

Concert Tour: Alright! +3 happiness might be too strong (I was thinking +2) but we can give this a shot.

I think it'll be fine. Musicians are generally not worth early game payout otherwise.

Halved 'known player' tech modifier, and increase espionage requirements for tech stealing from 700 to 1000: I don't understand this one. Are you making it more difficult to steal tech? I hope not, I generally find after just a few steals that it starts taking 30 or so turns to steal a tech, and I generally do other things with my spies. I do not find tech stealing too difficult at all.

Makes it harder, yes, but not by much. Generally these will reduce rubber-banding so that players that are in the tech lead can keep it that way.

Industry: Don't give in to Funak!:) Why are we giving external routes the break, and forcing people who want to use internal routes (which frankly at this point I still think are weaker in general) to have to wait until the tree is completely filled out? Just combine them and be done with it.

I didn't give in to anything. I made a call, as I wanted the policy tree to look as it does now. Internal Routes on Protectionism feels thematic as well.

Creative Expression: While it sounds nice, its actually a bad investment. Effectively I am spending a ton of culture on an ideology, to get (maybe) +8 culture per city, perhaps +12 with culture multipliers. That is actually a bad investment, it takes a LOT of culture to get a policy at this point, and border growth has been mostly set at this point in the game. This needs something else to make it worth it, or provide some kind of strong percentage multiplier on those buildings to be worth getting it for culture alone.

Extra culture is never a bad investment, as it'll combat boredom, increase policy acquisition, and border growth. In an empire of 6 cities (average for modern era), you'd be getting around 60-100 extra culture from this. I don't think that's bad at all!

G
 
Extra culture is never a bad investment, as it'll combat boredom, increase policy acquisition, and border growth. In an empire of 6 cities (average for modern era), you'd be getting around 60-100 extra culture from this. I don't think that's bad at all!

Base, it provides +8 per city. If we assume +25% for various percentage bonus (which is generous, percentage bonuses are scarce in the game), that's +10, or +60 total.

Spending 3,000 culture to get +60 is not a good investment at this point in the game. It takes 50 turns just to break even.....and then many more turns before you actually see a net benefit.

As for boredom, boredom is rarely a big unhappiness driver through most of the game. Border Growth....if you have a city that can afford all of those culture buildings its border growth is fine....and money takes care of the key tiles you need at that point in the game.

The tenets that throw in free buildings are nice because its an immediate benefit, and saves you hammers that can elsewhere. Tenets that give big faith/science/gold whatever are nice, because you can convert culture -> other yields. But investing culture....just to get more culture, is fine early game but not a good investment late game.
 
Base, it provides +8 per city. If we assume +25% for various percentage bonus (which is generous, percentage bonuses are scarce in the game), that's +10, or +60 total.

Spending 3,000 culture to get +60 is not a good investment at this point in the game. It takes 50 turns just to break even.....and then many more turns before you actually see a net benefit.

As for boredom, boredom is rarely a big unhappiness driver through most of the game. Border Growth....if you have a city that can afford all of those culture buildings its border growth is fine....and money takes care of the key tiles you need at that point in the game.

The tenets that throw in free buildings are nice because its an immediate benefit, and saves you hammers that can elsewhere. Tenets that give big faith/science/gold whatever are nice, because you can convert culture -> other yields. But investing culture....just to get more culture, is fine early game but not a good investment late game.

1. You're getting Military Academies for free in every city. Even in small satellite cities with little production, you are able to purchase now modern units. You get a little extra happiness to push for a domination victory, too.

2. You are not 'expending' culture to get the tenet. The culture remains. You just have a choice of getting this tenet, or any other policy/tenet, and you want a level 2 tenet to get a level 3 tenet. So the question is not if the investment is worthy in terms of culture, but if this tenet is balanced compared with the other options available.
 
1. You're getting Military Academies for free in every city. Even in small satellite cities with little production, you are able to purchase now modern units. You get a little extra happiness to push for a domination victory, too.

2. You are not 'expending' culture to get the tenet. The culture remains. You just have a choice of getting this tenet, or any other policy/tenet, and you want a level 2 tenet to get a level 3 tenet. So the question is not if the investment is worthy in terms of culture, but if this tenet is balanced compared with the other options available.

The free military academies are for a different tenant I believe.

Since the primary use of culture is to get new policies, using a tenant to get more culture is an expenditure of culture, ultimately the argument is semantics.

When I choose a tenant, I start gaining a benefit. In this policies case, I do not gain much benefit immediately, but theoretically gain policies quicker later. However, my argument is that this late in the game....the payout is not worth it.

Let me use a theoretical example to try and explain better. Imagine there was a tech at the beginning of the game that gave you a 10% boost to science. That's an attractive tech. Now imagine that future tech only gave a 10% boost in science... that would be a complete waste. The later a boost comes, the weaker it is.

A policy that boost culture early game is useful, as I have the time for the investment to pay off. But a boost late in the game is much weaker, and I think overall you get much more benefit choosing another policy.
 
When I choose a tenant, I start gaining a benefit. In this policies case, I do not gain much benefit immediately, but theoretically gain policies quicker later. However, my argument is that this late in the game....the payout is not worth it.

Maybe. But you are getting the superb level 3 tenet faster, nonetheless. And if you are not playing domination, chances are that you still get some more policies before the game ends.
 
Nice, cool to see the patch! Will try it out soon to check if the expansion level is back to how it was before 27th July patch
 
Pretty sure it is: try rereading the OP?


I did and I was correct. There are two tenets mentioned, one boost military academies and provide free ones, the other is the cultural boost that we are debating.
 
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