Why all combat modifiers are direct values instead of percentages?
- Thread starter Krajzen
- Start date
Does there need to be an explanation why?
A percentage scales when the unit upgrades, which may not always be a good thing.
A percentage scales when the unit upgrades, which may not always be a good thing.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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Because Civ 6 calculates combats based on difference
if a strength 35 unit one shots a str 5 one (difference=30)
a str 535 unit will one shot a str 505 on in exactly the same way (difference=30)
if a str 6 unit will do minor damage to a str 1 unit (difference=5)
a str 56 unit will also do the exact same minor damage to a str 51 unit (difference=5)
(the problem was that % bonuses would add in ways that didn't make sense.... +50% did not always give a unit 50% more strength if it already had a +50% bonus...instead the new bonus only made it 33% stronger)
The new flat bonuses are easier to calculate the exact effect of (if a bit less intuitive)
Ulthwithian
King
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I would guess that pure numbers are much quicker realized than percentages for most people. (That is, most people do subtraction faster than division.)
I have a few questions (sorry if they are obvious):
Do units still have 100 Hit Points?
Why the 35 str unit one shots the 5 str one?
If 2 warriors (20 str) with no modifiers at all face each other, how much damage each of them take?
TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
Units still have the 100HP system.
I think Krikkit was just giving examples.
I think Krikkit was just giving examples.
Acken
Deity
It made sense in civ5 because of using ratios. In civ6 they use a difference system so using additive bonuses is more appropriate.
Civ5 however was adding bonuses to get the total bonus which was making the system have diminishing returns. Now it seems bonuses will give a power increase independant of other bonuses.
Civ5 however was adding bonuses to get the total bonus which was making the system have diminishing returns. Now it seems bonuses will give a power increase independant of other bonuses.
I did some semi-math in another thread and basically around:
civ5 damage is akin to: e^( unit_A divided unit_B) comparing its strength
civ6 damage is akin to: e^( unit_A minus unit_B )
(its actually more complicated like 16.77*e^(.562*A/B) but close enough for comparisons)
But yeah the percentage bonuses were converted to a flat bonus because the strength is now calculated on the difference in strength rather than with a ratio comparison.
I think its mainly just easier for humans to read rather than an actual gameplay difference.
@AriochIV the new system actually has the same "upgrade problem" if you would call it one.
Amrunril
Emperor
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This is true for precise calculations, so I do think the new system will make it easier to to see how different combinations of promotions, terrain, etc. will act in combination. On the other hand, when it comes to seeing how two units stack up against each other, the system is much less intuitive. The average person may not know that 20 is 33% more than 15 while 120 is only 4.3% more than 115, but most would expect the former difference to be far more significant than the latter.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Yes, the main benefit of the new system is what you could have a lot of bonuses and they are easy to calculate. Once you'll learn how difference transforms to actual damage, the rest will be pretty easy. Have 20 str Warrior with +4 from oligarchy, +5 against barbs, -3 from loosing health, that's 26. Right in your head, before you actually move in and point at enemy unit to see the odds.
Lucius_
King
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Thing is, with CiV at least, you didn't need to do much of anything to see the odds. Select unit. Mouse over attackable unit anywhere in the world, doesn't even have to be reachable, as long as it's attackable, and you'll see your modified str vs theirs and the expected outcome. It's not like we had to actually do any math, or move units around, or anything to figure this out. Just mouse over stuff.
m15a
Emperor
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It's less intuitive, but there is only one simple unintuitive fact that needs to be learned. Additionally, percent modifiers in Civ V are also counterintuitive because when the "average person" sees "+100%", they think it is equivalent to "double", but that is not the case.
stealth_nsk
Deity
But what about modifiers from terrain or adjacent units? You'll not get them until you move to the tile.
EDIT: Not to mention you can't use mouseover to calculate the results of attack on your unit.
ThisNameIsTooLo
Emotion Lord
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Do we know if unit strength values will actually range that wildly from early to late game, though? I have reason to suspect that unit stats will remain relatively small, compared to previous titles.
It used to be that successive tiers of military units had to be made more powerful on an exponential curve; in Civ V, Ancient Era warriors began with a combat strength of 8, riflemen in the Industrial Era had 34 strength, and Mechanized Infantry possessed a whopping 90 strength.
One of the potential benefits to the additive system is that unit stats essentially become logarithmic. In practice, each additional point will be a greater jump in power than the last. This means combat strength won't have to zoom out of control by the late game; it'll suffice just to make each Era's set of units about 8 points stronger than the previous Era's. The basic Ancient unit may have 20 power, the basic Classical unit 28 power, Medieval 36, Renaissance 44, Industrial 52, Modern 60, Atomic 68, culminating in the Information Era basic units with a mere 76 power.
I can't say for certain that they'll take this route, but they've definitely opened the door to more elegant scaling in military progression.
Acken
Deity
However if a difference of 30 is a one shot I wonder how easy it will be to stack some +5s on top of an already existing difference of say 10 to 15.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Yes, oneshot is in about 30 difference. You can't get bonuses out of nowhere, though. Eagle Warrior insta-killing Slinger is quite common. Eagle Warrior insta-killing Archer is much more rare. Eagle Warrior insta-killing regular Warrior requires very specific set of coincidences.
Ryika
Lazy Wannabe Artista
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Having only Flat Values also allows for far more options in terms of scaling. An early bonus of +5 will become relatively meaningless over time, while a bonus of +20% will always remain strong.
So what they gain is the ability to add early bonuses that just diminish over time, that just wasn't possible in the old system, meaning that you can have bonuses that specifically increase your efficiency in Era X without translating into a huge bonus for the rest of the game.
So what they gain is the ability to add early bonuses that just diminish over time, that just wasn't possible in the old system, meaning that you can have bonuses that specifically increase your efficiency in Era X without translating into a huge bonus for the rest of the game.
stealth_nsk
Deity
How? With the difference-based system, the +5 bonus is equally strong throughout the whole game.
killmeplease
Mk Z on Steam
i think this time they're aiming at kids and kids dont know what the hell % is
I love the idea of a kid who's dumb enough not to know how to calculate % but smart enough to enjoy a game of Civ
