Team Monty - Emperor Training

Nad

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Oct 1, 2002
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4000BC saved game

Map: standard, continents, 70% water
Condition: wet, hot, 5 billion years
Civ: Korea
Opponents: 7 random
Barbarians: restless
Rules: all victory conditions enabled, culture-linked start is off, AI respawn is off.

Roster:
Nad
Yaype
OneFastWarrior
Greebley
Mad-Bax

Please check in guys!
 
Good luck. I've just moved up to Emperor and will be following this. Things are progressing well. Just into the middle ages and got Beijing and a few other cities in a short war:)
Let's see if this thread will show a few good pointers for the rest of us.
 
Just to get some preliminaries out of the way, before we can start some classic Civ 3 discussion!

1) We will not be using any exploits. Exactly what is and is not an exploit is open to debate, and I will make any necessary judgements if the need should arise. LKendter has a very comprehensive list which he displays at the beginning of his games (link ), we can use that for a guide. The purpose of this game is to get a solid grounding in playing well and winning at emperor difficulty, not winning by questionable means.

2) Turnover: 24 hours for a "got it" post, a further 48 hours to play your turn. In most of my SGs I'm quite relaxed about how long someone takes to play, but since this is a training game we need to keep it moving and it is a good habit to play your turns on time, so the timing will be important.

3) Save files: in the format "TGMontyxxxxad.sav" or .zip. Zipping files is another good habit but is not essential (it's one of my vices!)

4) Etiquette: we're here to learn and to have fun! Criticism should be constructive at all times, and no-one should take constructive criticism as anything other than an attempt to help you improve your game! The :smoke: symbol is bandied about too much, I feel, and won't be used in this game ;)
 
Onto the gaming! Has everyone played in a succession game before? If not and you're unsure about how things operate, do not hesitate to ask! In fact if you have any Civ 3 questions at all, you can certainly ask here.

This is how we're going to work this training game. The only turns I am going to play will be the first 20. After that, it is a four-player roster, as above, 10 turns each. When a player has posted a turn, I will evaluate the turn, highlighting what was good and bad about it. Everyone in the team can then add their comments about the turn. Is there anything that we missed, were there other strategies that could have been employed, how will this complement our long-term strategy and so on? As the game develops, we're likely to come up with plans depending on our situation, such as whether we need to acquire more land or resources, whether we need to go to war (and when), whether any AI need knocking down a peg, etc. Such decisions will be taken by the team as a whole. Within a player's own 10 turns, however, all decisions are up to the player. As an example, the team may have agreed to go to war. So we go to war, and during Mad-Bax's turn (for example) we get a leader. It is up to Mad-Bax what to do with the leader, there is no need to come back and ask the team! I hope this example clarifies the player-team relationship we're aiming for.

In the last training game played (run by Speaker and Sirp) a novelty I liked was setting little mini-quizzes to demonstrate how knowledge about the game can be turned into strategy. I will therefore be doing something similar!

So, let the analysis start! We are Korea, scientific and commercial, UU Hwach'a and we start with alphabet and bronze working. In what areas of the game will we be strong? What sorts of advantages do we have as the Koreans, and how will we fare over time (ie, what time periods will be strong for us, and when will we be weak....generally speaking, of course, you don't have to predict the future!)?
 
Checking in.

I am actually glad we appear to have no food bonus near our capitol (though we may have food in the fog). I have gotten a bit spoiled by GOTM which has allowed one to have a settler factory for your capitol for all recent games and have gotten good at that. I am still trying to develop my strategy for less food rich beginnings.

It also looks like we are going to have a good bit of jungle to deal with (though maybe it is all forest?).

Edit: I posted while you were posting Nad, so I hadn't read your posts yet. I may wait to get home to think and answer your quiz so I don't interupt work too much.
 
Yes indeed Greebley. Food bonus is exactly that - a bonus, and is certainly not needed to win at emperor or even deity.

What we do have though is a shield POWERHOUSE!!! Count those BGs, furs and mountains.
 
Sweet starting spot. just checking in, I will think about your questions and get back at ya later. Gotta go back to work right now though;)
 
ok, Being Scientific, we have cheap librarys, Universities, and research labs. However it will be a while till we learn to build Librarys, so I think this will be a weak point at the beginning of the game.

Our strong point is Commercial. We will have 1 extra gpt in each city to start, and the corruption will be low, so research low and trading for techs would be to our advantage. also with the extra money we would be brining in, we would be able to upgrade more effectively.

any thoughts on this observation?
 
As one fast warrior pointed out, libraries are cheaper than temples, so they are better for getting culture into a town.

In some emporer games I can keep up in tech by researching and trading, while in others I cannot and have to buy techs. Since we are both scientific (cheap libraries) and commercial (more income), it is more likely we can attempt to keep up or ahead by researching. We also have a river.

Additionally, I have seen some succession games where the free tech when entering the middle ages is very powerful. If we do fall behind we might have the opportunity to catch up. It is probably worth considering when we get close.

I haven't played Korea and used the Hwacha, but I find artillary very useful. The Hwacha doesn't have the range of artillary and only one attack, still it could be used to keep our casualties down - a problem I often have in my wars (and high casualty rate means lots of war weariness. It is probably worth building some catapults early on.

Bronze working gets us closer to iron working. It is always nice to know where the iron is earlier rather than later so you grab it. I used to build spearmen, but I do so less now. I tend to go for two warriors instead. I recently tried the warrior to swordsman upgrade, and it does seem powerful. The hardest part for me is saving enough money to do all the upgrading. I have a tendency to spend it unless I am careful.

Alphabet is good for trading as it seems to be the tech that is worth the most of the starting techs. We can also get writing earlier. If we wanted to research a tech at minimum science, writing is a good one so we can accumulate cash. It takes 40 turns either way early on.

It occured to me that Forest with fur is as good as a hill with a mine, and if we clear it, it is equivalent to a bonus grassland which is pretty useful.

With lots of shields and lesser food, we can probably churn out a lot of warriors between making settlers and workers. We probably want a barracks fairly early so the units will be veteran.
 
Some very good observations here :goodjob:

1) In which areas of the game will we be strong?

As OFW and Greebley have both noted, we get discounted culture buildings, and library is therefore a better prospect for us than temples. This, in turn, means literature is an important tech for us.

Research is a strong point. In most high-level games buying tech is far more feasible than self-research; on emperor we suffer a 20% penalty to research. Also, gold in hand is far more flexible than beakers invested. Gold in hand allows us to trade or buy things we need, it allows us to upgrade, it allows us to cash rush (once out of despotism) etc. Beakers invested in research are a closed account - they only get us towards one specific technology and significantly reduce our flexibility vis-a-vis running all cash.

As Greebley notes, however, we get a discount on the research-multiplying improvements and get more cash out of commercial; self-research is very much more feasible than in most games, therefore.

2) What advantages do we get as the Koreans?

Obviously the advantages of being scientific and commercial. We start with the most expensive first rank tech (alphabet) giving us an excellent early trading piece. Our other tech (bronze working) is one of the most useful first rank techs as we can build spears from the off, and we are close to iron working.

Another advantage of the starting techs is the techs they lead to. We have the option of min science runs on two good 2nd rank techs (iron working and writing). Whether we will do this remains to be seen, but we do have the option.

There is one advantage of commercial that neither of you have pointed out, and it is the more important of commercial's benefits: lower corruption!! We have 25% less OCN-related corruption. This will give us an early boost, and in the long-term, will give us a more productive empire and allow us to have a larger empire with less corruption than a non-commercial civ.

Originally posted by OneFastWarrior

Our strong point is Commercial. We will have 1 extra gpt in each city to start, and the corruption will be low, so research low and trading for techs would be to our advantage. also with the extra money we would be brining in, we would be able to upgrade more effectively.

any thoughts on this observation?

My thought on that observation is that it is incorrect ;)

Commercial gives you 1 extra gpt per city FROM SIZE 7 onwards. You do NOT get 1 extra gold per city from the start. This means that the extra gold is the weaker part of commercial's advantages.

Logically, therefore, we want to get our cities large as quickly as possible and reach size 7 as quickly as possible. Of course, at the start we will be looking to build many workers and settlers but we should be aware that getting to size 7 has an important extra boon for us. We are in a wet world so there should be plenty of rivers to build our cities on. Otherwise, we can prioritize aqueducts to get our cities to size 7.

Similarly, the extra gold from being commercial can be magnified by building markets/banks/exchanges (to multiply tax revenue) and by building libraries/uni's/labs (to multiply research revenue).

To sum that up more simply, large cities with multiplying improvements and a governemnt that gives a trade bonus (republic or democracy) = lots of money for the Koreans!!!


Our UU, on the other hand, is not that useful. The Hwach'a is an improved cannon. Now I'm a fan of artillery of all types, but remember, the Hwach'a is in the age of cavalry. Cavalry have move 3, Hwach'a move 1. This makes the Hwach'a almost useless for offensive campaigns where we push deep into enemy territory. It is still useful in defending our borders, to knock HPs off enemy units and it can fire in attack and defence, but it is unlikely to make a huge difference in any game. Artillery of all types only really come into their own after rails, when you can move large stacks very quickly, and when you need to bombard cities down to weaken their defenders and to kill population to reduce defence bonuses.

An important point that you need to be aware of wrt Hwach'a: it can't set off a Golden Age! The only way to do this as Korea is through wonders.

3) How will we fare over time?

Commercial and Scientific are the two slowest-developing traits. At the start of the game, we will have the weakest traits of all. Think of the other traits: we don't get fast map exploration and early boosts like expansionist, we don't get fast terraforming like industrious, we don't get the cheap temples of religious and we don't get the cheap barracks and fast promotion of militaristic.

The only advantage we will have at the start of the game is the lower rate of corruption (this is not insignificant). The quicker we get to literature, the quicker we can bring another strength into play, half-priced libraries.

Our strength will begin to grow in the early middle ages as we get city improvements built, such as markets, libraries, universities and banks, and as our cities get nice and large, accumulating plenty of commerce.

From the industrial ages onwards, while most other traits are in decline, our traits will continue to grow in strength. Think about it: expansionist will be useless, industrious is not so important when most terrain improvemenst have been done and when you're likely to have lots of workers anyway, religious is very weak when you've had your revolutions and you've built your temples and cathedrals; militaristic continues to be strong in battle, but the benefit of the cheap barracks and harbours has passed. But think about scientific and commercial: as scientific you still have a free industrial and modern tech and you still have cheap labs to come; and commercial keeps growing in strength as you build hospitals and get your cities to size 20, and the lower corruption is more important with a larger empire.

Another strong time for us is at the beginning of every age. Does everyone know how scientific slingshots work? If not, I'll be happy to explain :)

Finally, one thing that OFW and Greebley both mentioned which I want to cover: saving money for the warrior-swordsman upgrade. Why? In most emperor games, a sword rush is not a wise tactic, because the AI players will be much stronger than you at such an early juncture. Also, to be really effective, you need veteran warriors, ie, barracks to be built early. This is unlikely to happen, as there are many more pressing concerns early in a game. In some circumstances the sword-rush can work, and in some games you may have no choice if you get a very poor landgrab. But if you're playing a standard game, never go into that game with preconceived ideas! Civ 3 has a habit of laying your best plans to dirt. Keeping cash in hand for upgrading units is wise; relying on early rush tactics is not. Always keep your options open - that way you can deal with a bum hand. If you commit yourself to one particular tactic without taking the circumstances into account, you leave yourslef vulnerable (eg, what if there is no iron? :lol: ).

Any sign of Yaype? Has he perhaps been affected by the north American power problems?
 
Once again, I have misunderstood what I read(regarding extra commerce for commercial civs), Well, I just keep learning things.

I am not sure if I know of the scientific slingshots. care to elaborate a little?
 
Good information on the commercial trait. I think that was the one trait I didn't know as much about.

Some questions/comments:
For the corruption is it equivalent to say that we can build 25% more cities than a non-commercial civ and get the same corruption (assuming same distance)?

I am not sure exactly how the extra gold works. Do we get +1 gold at size 7 and then another +1 at size 13, or +1 at size 7, +2 at size 8, +3 at size 9, etc.

For me the swordsman rush was more of a reminder that it exists rather than a plan to go for it reguardless of position. I haven't used it often enough to get a good idea on when it is good and when it bad. I also haven't tried it on emporer level. One reason I mentioned it was the shield rich/food poor start. I was thinking it might be possible to build barracks early without impacting settler and worker production, which make it a lot more feasable. I completely agree that without knowing what the surrounding terrain is like, it is too early to plan on it. As you say the distribution of iron is key. If we have iron and a neighbor that is crowding us doesn't then I was thinking it might be worthwhile for example.

I the question is: Is it worthy consideration as a possible plan of action? Enough to build early veteran warriors? Enough to go for iron working fairly early to find out if its worthwhile?

I translate your answer that the computer civs are all strong enough at emporer that it is unlikely that we would want to do any of this. It would hurt our own civilizations growth too much. Only if we can't grow because of other civs should we consider it. Does this sound right?

Is "scientific slingshot" the term for what I sort of described above about catching up with research by getting the next age tech because we are scientific and then back trading for gains of cash and tech? I have heard the term before, and always assumed that is what it meant.
 
The scientific slingshot is the technique by which a scientific civilization can use its free tech at the beginning of a new era to catch up in tech in its present era and then accumulate lots more gold in the new era too. If you've ever played with a scientific civ, you'll be aware of how much the industrial and modern age free techs can be worth, especially if you have a monopoly on them; in Civ 3 before the 1.21 patch of PTW, the free techs were also largely fixed; since 1.21 they're variable. The actual slingshot formula was devised by Architect, I think, and was called "Nationalism Slingshot".

Here's how it works: let's imagine we're in the middle ages. Since we're playing on emperor we're probably slightly backward and the leading AIs are likely to be ahead in the tech race. For this example, we'll say we're at chemistry while the leading AIs have entered the industrial age. So we can imagine that we need 3 techs to get to the industrial age, physics, theory of gravity and magentism.

So what does the slingshot avail? We'll imagine that we're running all cash and we've got some savings in the bank that we've been accumulating. What we do is mortgage our entire economy to get into the industrial age! We spend all the gold we have, all our gpt, resources if needs be, and we ignore all optional techs, we simply buy the technologies we need to enter the new age. Now that alone sounds very risky and unwise, but we're about to get it all back.

Because as soon as we get to the industrial age, we get a free tech! Before PTW 1.21 this was nearly always nationalism, the most expensive 1st rank tech in the industrial ages. Now it can be any one of steam, nationalism and medicine. Whichever it is, we're almost certain to have a monopoly on that tech. So we sell our free monopoly tech to the AIs! Starting with the richest, we sell this free tech back at exorbitant cost (industrial techs are worth a lot more thyan middle age techs), and we thus get all the gold we spent back, plus a bunch of gpt, plus any optional techs we may be lacking. Result: we're among the tech leaders and have a bunch of cash.

When you have more than one scientific civ this can be even more powerful because your free industrial tech could be traded for the other starting industrial techs too. The slingshot is a great way to catch up for scientific civs if you are lagging behind the leaders. What's even better is that you can do this 3 times, at the beginning of the respective ages.

I'll try to find Architect's original post for this because he demonstrated it beautifully in diagram form, showing how he went from hopelessly backwards to tech leader and filthy rich in the same turn.
 
With the search disabled I'm not having much luck finding the original nationalism slingshot thread. If anyone knows where it is, please post a link!!

Originally posted by Greebley

Some questions/comments:
For the corruption is it equivalent to say that we can build 25% more cities than a non-commercial civ and get the same corruption (assuming same distance)?

I am not sure exactly how the extra gold works. Do we get +1 gold at size 7 and then another +1 at size 13, or +1 at size 7, +2 at size 8, +3 at size 9, etc.


Re: corruption....yes, that is exactly what it means, but it is slightly more powerful than that sounds because it does not just come into effect at the OCN number, it comes into effect for the grading of every city built.

We're actually getting into way more depth than you probably need to know for civ games, but this is a training game and it is all fun! This is roughly how OCN-corruption works: every city has a rank, which represents how close it is to the palace or forbidden palace. The exact distance does not matter (that is measured by distance-related corruption), only the relative ranking. So the city closest to the palace has a rank of 1, the next closest 2 etc. Each rank correspondingly has a corruption rating, so, for example, rank 1 might be only 5% corrupt (further modified by distance corruption), rank 2 might be 10%, rank 3 might be 15% etc. For commercial civs, this is where the 25% less-OCN corruption comes in. For other civs, rank 4 might mean 20% corruption, but for commercial civs, rank 4 means only 15% corruption. When applied to every city, this lower corruption soon adds up to make a big difference.

Incidentally, this is why RCP is exploitative, IMO, because cities the same distance get the same, lowest corruption rank. So if you place your first, second, third, fourth, and fifth cities exactly the same distance from your palace, they all get corruption rank 1, when in fairness they should get the average rank (3).


Originally posted by Greebley

For me the swordsman rush was more of a reminder that it exists rather than a plan to go for it reguardless of position. I haven't used it often enough to get a good idea on when it is good and when it bad. I also haven't tried it on emporer level. One reason I mentioned it was the shield rich/food poor start. I was thinking it might be possible to build barracks early without impacting settler and worker production, which make it a lot more feasable. I completely agree that without knowing what the surrounding terrain is like, it is too early to plan on it. As you say the distribution of iron is key. If we have iron and a neighbor that is crowding us doesn't then I was thinking it might be worthwhile for example.

I the question is: Is it worthy consideration as a possible plan of action? Enough to build early veteran warriors? Enough to go for iron working fairly early to find out if its worthwhile?

I translate your answer that the computer civs are all strong enough at emporer that it is unlikely that we would want to do any of this. It would hurt our own civilizations growth too much. Only if we can't grow because of other civs should we consider it. Does this sound right?

The conclusion you draw is the correct one: it is worth CONSIDERING. We don't really know if our start is food-poor yet - for all we know, there could be 3 cattle in our capital radius when we build the city :D. Generally, barracks is a low priority at the start of the game, but it depends...if we do turn out to be food poor, we may well build one early. If we find a neighbour on our doorstep, again we may build one early. We have to wait and see. My answer would be, we do not go out of our way to build veteran warriors, but if the indications are that we need to go to war early, then we might do so. But as you discern, in most circumstances going to war early on emperor is inadvisable. Their starting units are too strong and the emperor shield discount they receive is magnified when you have very few cities. Most importantly, that early on just one or two combat results can completely turn your game, and it is very risky to trust your fate to the RNG!!
 
I forgot to answer your question about the extra gold. We get 1 extra gold in the city center between size 7 and 12, and we get 2 extra gold in the center tile from size 13 upwards.
 
Since we are waiting for Yaype to check in...

I was looking at the opening position and wondering how I would play it. Moving the worker first is a ploy I learned from the GOTMs. It seems so obvious now, but when I first started it didn't occur to me to do this. The question is where? The mountain tempting. It wastes 2 turns of worker production, but could potentially reveal a wheat, cow, or deer. This position though it just "feels" unlikely to be a bonus. In which case I would move South or West which reveals a single square that might have a bonus ( south-south or west-west of the start) that is not within the city radius if we settled where we are.

It used to be that I would automatically move onto the mountain. Now I am not so sure. I think I would end up not climbing the mountain, but choose W or S Assuming no bonus appears, then I would settle right were we are. If the land was flood plains instead of forest, I would probably choose to climb the mountain. A single irrigated wheat can get to 5 food.

I am curious as to how the rest of you would play this. I am hoping I remember correctly in that you can see over forest on a mountain (but not on a hill).

Hmm... looking at the picture more closely, that looks like Jungle not forest to the (south) east. In that case I definitely wouldn't go for the mountain.

I did a check on Yaype's last post date, and it was just after he posted on the Monty Python Crawling Circus thread. Perhaps he is without power (I had no problems though nearby Boston was said to have outages in the news). Or perhaps real life reared its ugly head.

The horror of it all...all those people...without power...unable to play civ...how did they manage? :lol:
 
For me the worker always goes to the tile he will work. In this case, the most powerful tiles are the 4 BG's. One of them is not on a river, leaving 3. The BG's to the south and south west are jungle bound, so the options for the next tile to improve are limited. So I think that leaves the Westerm BG.

I don't know our position on the map. But it looks like we are in the northern hemisphere with grassland north of jungle. It would seem likely therefore that we will expand north, and nibble away at the jungle from 1000BC on. So after the Western BG I would eat the 1 commerce lost and improve the northern BG next to save unit movement turns.

I think we will be weakest at the beginning of the game, obviously because of the free AI units. We will be strongest in the game IMO at the beginning of the MA where we will have currency (and markets) plus our free tech, and be in republic. Obviously monarchy for a commercial civ is silly.

The pyramids would be a good wonder for us. It would help towns to get to pop 7 quicker and take advantage of the extra gpt. Otherwise we are into a compromise of number of cities versus size of cities. With pyramids you can do both. My personal view of the pyramids is that it is so powerful for the human player as to be almost an exploit.


Does the H'wacha become available with metallurgy? The unique thing about this UU IIRC is that it is the only bombard unit that CAN kill a unit, and can therefore trigger a GA. A GA triggered just after Metallurgy is great, particularly if timed with a mass knight upgrade. So if our GA happens then we will be strong in this part of the game too.

The second weakest point of the game is when the AI learn Nationalism. Cavalry against riflemen is messy. Combining fast cavalry with slow arty and H'wacha is difficult and cumbersome.

It can be really tempting to wait for MT, but this is always a mistake since you could be looking at 40 turns easy even if you get TOE.
 
As far as I'm aware Hwach'a cannot kill units and cannot start a GA.
 
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