Maniac1 - OBC Babylon Space Race

The One Built City Space Race Idea:

Civ: Babalon

Difficulty: Demigod

Map: Between Small and Medium (90 X 90)/Temperate/Flat/Pangea/ 20% land

Barbarians are Raging

Opponents 6 - The 6 Expansionist civs with no cheap cultural buildings (Zulu, Mongols, Americans, Hittites, Inca, Portugeese)

Varient Rules:

We may only build One city ever.

We may obtain up to 5 more cities maximum (with an exception noted below) and must propaganda/flip/capture them. They must be capable of joining boarders with one of our current cities on first boarder expansion (or upon fist boarder expansion by a recently captured city so we wouldn't have to sit arround 5 or so turns waiting to capture a city in rapid succession) which must be done asap by rushbuy or whip of a culture building, even if it isnt ordinarily a prudent thing to do (we are allowed to let it get 1 shiled in the box first to save the double price rushing), and the city may work no citizens until it has a trade route and joined boarders with the capital.

Once we take ownersip of a city, it is our city and may never be abandoned or replaced. If it is razed, then we just have to plug along with no more than 5 total cities the rest of the game. If it is captured, we must make every reasonable effort to recapture it.

I know this doesn't sound too tough, but the kicker is that we are going for space ship victory, with all but culture and domination enabled. (Yes, this means we have to build the UN.......)

Note: Space race now needs Robotics (and Uranium) for Stasis chamber

Also, to keep this from becoming a milking effort, we may only declare war under the following circumstances.

1) VS a civ that has a city boardering our capital, or is at least closest to our capital and touching boarders with our "core" we may declare war at any time IF it is being done as part of the core expansion. The first time we declare on a particular civ in this way, we may accept alliances from other civs IF we do it on the turn we declare. ROP's may be made IF they are made as a part of the alliance deal (so that the instant the alliance dies they die too). For this first war we may do whatever we want to that civ for 20 turns, afterwhich we must make peace. We should be prepared to take whatever cities we need from a civ in one war if at all possible (its allways been easily possible in my testing). Reason for this change is to allow for a little "pointy stick" research. In a couple of my tests we fell HOPELESSLY behind w/o this.

IF we have to declare war on a civ a second time for core expansion, we can NOT get alliances and MUST make peace as soon as they'll talk to us after we have reached our objective.

After we complete the Apollo Project and have discovered Fission we may declare war on a civ IF it is the only feasable way of obtaining a needed space ship part resource (Aluminum, Uranium or Rubber). Razing and colonizing is the prefered. If the only feasible way to get the resource is to capture a city, then we are alowed to. Those cities may build ONLY the following buildings and never any units: Temple OR Colosseum (to expand boarders for flip prevention or to bring the resource in range), walls, and Civil Defense. RoP can be obtained with neighbors for this if necesary (sailing arround seems kinda silly )

And last, If appears we are HOPELESSLY behind on our ship, we may declare war on our leading rival for the purpose of razing the capital or denying aluminum or uranium. No alliances allowed, we have to do this on our own, and we have to make peace as soon as we have crippled their ship building ability. Again, vital RoP's allowed.

MPP still allowed, but we may not attack enemy units on their territory if we declare via this triggering.

If war is delcared on us, we can still do our worst to whoever declares on us, and we may make alliances and rop riders with anyone as long as its done the first turn after war is declared on us.
Scoring: THREE points for keeping our capital the #1 city in the world at all times after its temple is built.

One point for for each part we finish ahead of our closest rival (maximum 3 parts), only if we dont declare "spaceship sabotage" war on anyone.

TWO points for not having to declare war on anyone as a "spaceship sabotage".

Note: The sabotage production espionage mission would NOT void these points. Keep that in mind.

One point for conducting all our wars "alliance free."

One point for avoiding all RB "dastardly" actions other than war declarations.

Turns will be 20 turns for the first round (you can take 10 if you want, but are allowed 20), 10 turns after that.

Our cultural mindset is we just want to be left alone to live in peace and happyness in our little shangra-la, but these other civs keep crowding in on us. Finally, we can take it no more and sweep out a nice path arround our capital . Later on, even this isn't enough, so we seek refuge in space away from these barbarians.

Roster:
Maniac
Ridgelake
Charis
Matt_G
Meldor
Skyfish

I tried to slot people according to what I percieved to be their best "time window", though somehow I doubit I'll have guessed right on everyone.

Rules for this series are simply that we avoid any of the Realms Beyond listed exploits, and also avoid the Negative Science exploit and Multiple Demand exploit. I'm sure everyone signed up allready knows these and knows where to find them so I won't elaborate further

Game will be at a relaxed pace because of C3C induced SG overload on some of the crew and with the holiday season uppon us. 48 hours to "get it" and 96 hours to complete. (Thats almost a week in total there. If you need longer than that I encourage you to swap rather than ask for a skip (unless you really need a skip). Swaping is fine and dandy by me. I probably don't even NEED time rules with this group of battle hardened SG'ers, but.....

Here is our start. Low on hills and BG but high on Ivory and on rivers....

[4000] Move worker SE along river to check for Food Bonuses but find none. Move settler due west to the river/ivory and...... The water is salty.

[3950] Babylon founded. Work started on Warrior for scouting. Research set to Warrior Code, NOT pottery as we know all our rivals are expansionist and start with this tech. Our worker pops the hut and we get...... A scouting warrior. Could be huge, could be meaningless.

[3800] We find the Mongols (blech, not exactly the civ I wanted
to meet first.) who are about to found their 2nd city next to a patch of wines.
They want BW 1gpt and 8g for WC. Or we could trade them both our techs for WC and 35g. I decline for now.

[3750] An Inca scout walks next to the capital from the NW. They Lack BW, but have Pottery and Masonry. I smell a broker opportunity.

Bronze and Burrial to the Mongols for WC, Pottery, and 31g. Hmmm. Inca's aparently know people with WC and are researching Bronze or know somone with it. It would take almost 90g Plus WC to nab Masonry, and they value bronze even less. I'm sure they will meet the mongols in a turn or 2 so I trade both techs for Masonry and their 10 gold. Not as good as I hoped, but still.

This is probably weed, but I set research to Mystacisim, due in 29 in the vain hope we can pull it first and maybe get a sci leader or a broker. This will probably be our only shot at one for a few thousand years.

[3700] Babylon - Warrior -> Grainery. Warrior sent scouting.

[3550] Hittite scout wanders by. They have Alphabet, but lack bronze and masonry. Their asking price for Alph is out of our range though. They want both our techs and over 90 gold . Bad news is they will either meet or have allready met the Sapster.

[3550] Aparently the Sapsters techs were worth more than ours. Inca have Alph and Hittites have Bronze and Masonry

[3450] Babylon grows, boarders expand.
Mongols now have Alpha and Masonry

[3400] Zulu boarders spotted. Our eastern scout heads over to take a look.

[3250] Zulu contacted. They have Alpahbet and The Wheel. Mongols also now have The Wheel.

[3150] Babylon - Grainery -> Warrior (for MP)

[3100] Our eastern scout finds a Portugeese scout. They have Alpha but lack Masonry and Burrial and they WILL cough Alpha and 20 them. With their scout about to find the Zulu I figure we better take it.

[3000] State of the game. We have parity with both Portugal and Hittites, down only The Wheel to the others. Mysticisim due in about 16 turns. Probably weedy research but we'll see. The capital is in a nice 4-3-3 micro manage for food when the game is irrigated (done in 1 turn). Make sure to remember to MM for all its worth! We really really need annother worker. I hoped one would show up for purchase, but no dice. IMHO, the warrior I just completed should be our last. I'd suggest building worker, bowman, temple, wonder, especially if no one starts a wonder before then. IF they do, we might have to skip something and just run high lux tax. We can't go wrong with either the Colossus or the Pyramids.

Good Luck Ridgelake.


The Save

OK... I just discovered that there are 2 REALLY serious problems with C3C.

One, the FP doesn't work (which won't affect us in this scenareo anyway), but Two, the civ getting gpt payments recieves DOUBLE the ammount of money (the paying civ doesn't pay double). I'm really not sure what to do about this if anything. Clearly we really will need to make gpt payments from OCC style..... any suggestions?

Edit: If anyone hasn't taken time to read the bugs forum, I'd suggest you take a look there. A lot of it is fairly cosmetic, but some of it is REALLY serious in nature. The corruption and gpt bugs (this one comes from Arathorn, not from the bugs forum) are ALMOST enough to make me put C3C away and go back to PTW till they get them fixed. For whatever it wasnt, PTW at least did deliver on its SP upgrades and fixed things rather than broke them

I see it and should get to it tonight.

-Looking at the map, the Incan town to our west sure looks yummy for its spices.

-We are going to be tremendously shield light.

-My initial build plan is worker, bowman (to give the AI something to "fear"), then colossus. As I stated in the discussion thread, this wonder will be absolutely critical for our economy.

-There is nothing that we can do about the double gpt payment bug. All it will do for us is quicken the science pace.

-The number of nearby civs will make our war-declaration decisions complex. It is all together possible for there to be 3-4 different civs bordering our capitol. One major implication of this is that numerous wars against different civs will hurt our relations. This will cause us to have to pay more gold for techs, among other problems.

I'm hoping we only have to go to war with the Mongols and the Inca, but we'll see. I expect demands to start soon. PLEASE CAVE right now . I'd try to squeeze in that temple before the wonder. We might even get a flip out our cultural dominance, though it seems pretty unlikely they way the AI has settled .

Wonder stratedgy path suggestion: Colossus, Zeus, Library, then Sistine or Bachs if we can get it. Once we get a better guage on the AI, specifically how many cities they have, we can decide if it is possible to do our own research. If looks possible, we'll want CoP and/or newtons in the capital. If not, we want Smiths. Don't discount building Shakes anymore. The free hospital effect and massive culture is a dern good thing

Also, DONT build spears before we approach invention. If we have iron, building a FEW pikes is ok.

In despotisim, I don't mind paying gpt if we have to to keep up.... hopefully there will be a patch VERY soon. If one IS announced to be coming very soon (rumors are arround that there may be one by next weekend) we might put a hold on turns till its out. As of now though, just procede like that isn't going to happen.

Also, don't forget we are the only scientific civ, so look for slingshot if we can't get the library.

I have the game and am playing now. Realistically, Charis will decide whether to build a temple or the Colossus. 10 turns goes fast at this stage of the game.

I do agree with the wonder path. I also recommend the one the ancient one that gives 3 happiness (not gardens). That will save us a ton on lux tax. I also strongly recommend Shakespear to get the early hospital effect.

Anyway, Ill be back soon.

Ridge

Ridge, you get 20 this time arround because of the OCC nature

Edit: MoM is indeed nice and doesn't expire I think, but I've never gotten anywhere close to it. It's so cheap the cascade usually eats it quickly.

Ahh...20 turns...ok.

Well, after 10, we are down 4 techs. Our Myst run came up 3 turns short.

Ill be back with 20...

Maniac1

3000BC (0) Look around, a couple of civs are up a wheel Babylon will finish its worker in 3 and grow in 3 with the irrigation that finishes next turn. As Maniac alluded to, this will start a 3-4-3 food surplus growth cycle.

2950BC (1) irrigation completes, start road.

2900BC (2)

2850BC (3) finish worker, start bowman. We are over the allocated amount of units already.

2800BC (4) Zulus show up with writing. Mongols have a worker. Our entire economy cannot afford him.

2750BC (5) Zulus have 2 workers available. Our entire economy with MMing can barely buy it. I decline as that will kill our chances at Myst.

2710BC (6) An American warrior stops by. I say hello. That should be all of the contacts. They, like several others, are up horses.

Portugal shows up with Ironworking.

We grow to size 4 this turn. Bowman due next turn. Adjust slider to keep peace.

2670BC (7) Bowman completes. Start on Colossus. Due in 34 depending on the MMing (and growth). If Charis wants to swap to temple, he can.

2630BC (8) MM. Mongols now have writing. Iron is still a monopoly portugese. We have 4 more turns to Myst.

2590BC (9) Dang it, America get Myst and traded it for IW. IW and writing have been passed around a lot. I will try to twofer/threefer next turn when we get Myst.

2550BC (10) Get Myst. Only the Hittites don’t have Myst. And they won’t trade either horses or iron for it straight up. Can’t buy into writing either. That is twoferable/threeferable.

We can buy wheel and 8 gold from the Hitties for Myst and 2 gpt. IW would cost us Myst, 3 gpt and 2 gold. I will leave this decision up to Charis and the team.

I decide to take IW as it leads to construction. We will want a coliseum.

2510BC (11)

2470BC (12) Mongols, Portugese and Incans start Oracle.

2430BC (13)

2390BC (14) Hittites start Colossus. It is due in 15 for us.

2350BC(15)

2310BC (16) We reach size 7. Luxes up to 30%. Colossus due in 11.

2270BC (17) Portugese start Colossus.

2330BC (18) The demands start as the Incas want 23 gold. Help yourself!

2190BC (19)

2150BC (20) Colossus due in 7. Babylon is size 7 and can make 11 net spt. We are down writing and the wheel. They can still be twofered.

Good luck, Charis, we are going to need it.




The Babbling Babalonians

Looks like a good set of turns. Sorry about my Myst but with the Sci Leaders arround now I just thought it was too good an opportunity to pass up to go after a tech that is usually slow to get researched.

I really doubit anyone beats us to the colossus .

It is unfortunate that the AI is settling so loose to our capital

We basically allready know what 5 cities we will have to capture. The 2 Incan cities to our west, the Mongol city under the fog SW of the gold hills, and the mongol city under the fog NE of the capital will make 4. The 5th will be from whoever founds the gap over near the iron mountian SE of us, probably the mongols. Looks like we WILL get iron which is very good, and also spices which should help.

I'm not worried much about being down 2 techs at this point. The Inca's will probably cough up everything they have when we wax them soon .

The doubled income when the colossus gets built and we start working those ivory soon will help a lot too.

My priorities would still be the same. Build Colossus, buy math asap and build Zeus (maybe with a temple first. we may turn out to be the only ones who can build Zeus *note build a rax immeadiately after Zeus*), buy Lit asap and build the Library. Until we have some military, cave to demands. Once we get a 2nd city (and spices?) build a rax and bowmen out of it (for defense and GA if we took it with cavs, or if we havent set it off with the library).

Good Luck Charis!

Charis <-- UP
Matt_G <-- On Deck
meldor <-- In the Hole
everyone else <-- sleeping for a while

Edit: actually, we are probably down 3 techs as HBR is probably widely known. I probably would have taken the whell just because it uncovers HBR, but with Construct being the more expensive tech that might have been better since it was similarly priced. No real way to know. Would be nice if we could trade our ivory to somone, but thats probably a long way off . btw: I dono if we wana build a colosseum. I usually don't. 2 maint for 2 happy

Got it, should be playable tonight.

Looks like a good turn, Ridgelake. Babylon looks like a powerhouse compared to the puny little cities next to us. And as for their settling near us? Yay! Lower corruption when WE own them, or heck, one or two might flip without a battle if we do well with culture. The wonder list mentioned seems ok, albeit ambitious.

Charis

Maniac, I would generally agree with the build orders. I do think that I would go temple next. It will only take 3 turns to build. The happiness and culture will help. We probably will have time to build a rax next. Then start on bowmen as we wait for math to come in for Zeus. We won't have much to use as a prebuild, though oracle is out there.

As for the wonders, after we finish colossus, the Library is the most important one available. I would wager that we will be able to wait to get Zeus if we had to chose between the two. Lets also not forget about the Mausoleum. It will provide 3 happy faces for the rest of the game, not to mention tourist revenue.

As for our targets, I like hitting Ta-Tu in addition to the Incan cities. When our borders expand a second time and Ta-Tu's borders expand, they wouldl merge if we owned both cities. A third lux will be yummy.

Things went fairly well, nothing too major (so took full 20 turns)

[0] 2150 BC - Looks like Incan and Mongols have 'our cities'

As our corruption shield occurs between 11 and 12, I squeeze one more food
out of the capital. I hate the fog surrounding "our" cities and so I send
our units out to explore some more. Since we're in "auto-cav" mode and plan
no new units for the next 500 years, there's no reason not to. (Well, duh,
we DO have two units out exploring already, there is that)

IBT - Shaka establishes an embassy with us? What a diplomat

[1] 2110 BC - Abe is the last one w/o writing, and our chance for Wheel twofer is
about to slip away. I *really* like knowing where my horses/iron are...
Oh no, no Charis, you're not, are you? Yup, re-arrange squares
to max commerce, push down sliders and go into hock The Hitties are weakest
civ next to us, so they get 10gpt+6g for Writing, which we swap with America for
the Wheel+19g. We also see the (gasp) tech leading Zulus have Map Making.
Everyone but Inca has HBR. 'Our' city of Olla will have horses, cool! Ok, so we
have a little (cough) deficit now... we'll deal with that.

[2] 2070 BC - Bowman turns around to get back for MP duty, given the costs.
We see 'Kazan' is the city to our NE, and it's smack next to an iron hill.

[3] 2030 BC - zzz
[4] 1990 BC - Almarikh is the Mongol city to our south on the Gold Hills.
With an MP back and with some rearranging tiles, the hemorrage is down to -4gpt.

Looking around the map, it does seem the five most likely cities
are: Tiwanaku(Incan w/spices), Ollantaytambo(Incan), Mongol-gold-fog city,
Ta-Tu(Mongol, iron near), and the Mongol one NE in fog. That makes it look
like two civs will see wars with us, and the others possibly unscathed.

[5] 1950 BC - Three Incan warriors that scared me moving last turn seem now to
just be on random patrol (phew - did the return of the bowman help?)
Colossus is due in 2, come on...

[6] 1910 BC - One step closer...

[7] 1870 BC - Woohoo, the Colossus is ours!! (Portuguese and Hittites swap to Pyr)
With this wonder... income is +3gpt! Considering after my crazy trade, we were
-11gpt with about 50 in the bank, this is a good thing
No change really in tech, all civs have HBR, half of them have Map Making.

I do think we can and should slip in a temple here. At 10spt that's 3 turns.

[8] 1830 BC - There's a hittite settler pair floating through our lands for some
reason. There is also a mongol warr-settler very nearby, I would guess likely
to fill in the gap between Ta-Tu and Kazan - we shall soon see.

IBT - Ouch, did Zulus pop huts? They have CoL, Math, and Polytheism now.

[9] 1790 BC - POACH!! Ulaanbaatar is founded *3 squares* from our capital,
major overlap. Although tis major flip-bait, we wouldn't want it even if they
wanted to revolt, just way too close. Our five desired cities remain intact,
and Ulaan isn't one of them.

The Portuguese and Americans have CoL and Poly, Mongols have CoL, and the
Incans are on the short end of the research stick, up only HBR. If we had
more cities/more income, this would spell a fourfer, but can't do that here.

[10] 1750 BC - Temple done, so we start prebuild for next wonder. (Oracle for now,
but Zeus would be top choice, and Mausoleum not bad)

[11] 1725 BC - zzz
[12] 1700 BC - Our capital borders expand, firmly locking with Olla, Tiwa, Ullan,
and Kazan.
[13] 1675 BC. Now at 28g+4gpt, still they won't sell a tech even for 10gpt.
Our second MP is back in place, having explored around sufficiently.
[15] 1625 BC - Take a close look at tech again. All have HBR. Above that,
Incans have nothing, Hittites have MM, Mongols have MM and CoL, Americans and
Port have MM,Col, and Poly. Zulus alone have math. So can't we buy Poly?
Nope, just out of our league. CoL? Portuguese will sell it for 36g+11gpt.
(Nevermind that we don't have 11gpt!!!) We do it! Then sell CoL to Inca's for
HBR+35g. Alas, can't reach MM 8-\ So CoL to Hittites for 90g. Just a twofer.
We're at 129g-3gpt after this.

(IBT) Zulus start Temple of Artemis. Henry wants 25g for our friendship (curses,
the downside of having to take cash instead of gpt for payment). We cave.

[16] 1600 BC - zzz
[17] 1575 BC - Our roving warrior runs into Hattusas, the Hittite capital.
[18] 1550 BC - zzz
[19] 1525 BC - zzz
[20] 1500 BC - Portuguese are building the Great Lighthouse.
The tech is moving on ahead, still in stratified groups. The top four civs (Zulu,
Mongol, Portuguese and barely, the Hittites) have four techs on us (MM,Poly,Philo,Math)

while America MM, Math, Poly, and Incas only have MM. There should be a good twofer
for Math and MM soon, just not yet.

Babylon is size 9, growing in 6, Oracle due in 16 (buy Math before then!)
Our first tech purchase payment expires next turn, so our income will go up
around 10gpt. Remember, cave if tribute is demanded, and keep eye out for more trades,
lower the lux slider first for higher gpt for payment if you need to, to swing a deal.

Here's our map,



Maniac
Ridgelake
Charis
Matt_G <-- UP
Meldor <-- On deck
Skyfish

Save file 1550BC

Good luck,
Charis

Nice playing, Charis!

You guys realize that with our 5 chosen cities, we will have 4 luxes!!!! [dance]

Not to mention iron and horses!

I see it, but it will be about 24 hours before I play it.
I did look at the save and we can have Zeus in 8 or 9 turns since it's only 200 shields versus 300 for the Oracle. I will be sure and get Math soon enough to not waste any shields, then I will build a rax so our AC are vets.
If you guys have anything else you want to point out, please do.
I will check the thread before I play tomorrow night.

Matt

Only have a minute, will post more detailed analysis tomorrow. In all my playtesting I NEVER had an AI bold ennogh to poach my capital like that so I never considered it. Then again, I allways built an early temple so the AI wouldn't/Couldn't poach like that because of our culture and expansion. (this isn't a critisism of not building the temple because I never considered this implication either). According to the LETTER of the rules that city would have to be one of our five, but by the spirit/intent of this scenareo.... That city needs to burn. It's that simple. We had a great setup in that we COULD have gotten 20 shields AFTER corruption at size 12, now the only way we can do it is to build a courthouse, which we might wana do.

Nice job on the techs. Agree to buy math for zeus. Problem is, when Lit is discovered is going to make a HUGE diffrence. If we are left with nothing to prebuild with, the cascade could steal the library, which was a rare occurence in my tests. . If nothing else after the rax is avail to prebuild with, try to get city to size 12, build a court, then with mining some plains be can get the magic 20 spt, aka 1BPT (bowman per turn). The wonder diffrence between Emperor PTW and DG C3C is staggaring. In PTW I build Colossus, Pyramids, Library all from scratch with no problem. Thats impossible in C3C on DG.

The absolute BEST thing about the library for us now would be. We build, we get GA. Next turn we pull Republic and revolt and we get a Republic GA. Well, thats the ideal fantasy anyhow.

Actually, we will have 5 luxes and and extra iron if we can find somone to trade it to.

It occurs to me that buying into MAP (after math) might be a great idea so we can build a harbor. Then we could export all that ivory for tech instead of gpt.

No matter what, I see us going after the Inca first. They are the bottom dog tech wise, so they wont be able to buy alliances as easily. Heck, even if we only got ONE city out of them it would help a lot. WE might wana oscilate between Inca and mongol, or we might not.

I generally agree with Maniac's assessments. The Great Library is critical. So much so that we should look into researching lit at max rate instead of buying into Math. I am not saying to do that, only that the option should be looked at. My thought is that there are very few, if any cities that can build Zeus. Every city can build the GL. And it can be rushed with a scientific greatleader from any civ.

I was also trying to decide which civ to attack first. The Mongols have superior lands to the Incans. But it will be much more dangerous/difficult for us to take out 4 mongol towns. I think that I agree with Maniac that the Incans should go first. Lets get 2 more (Incan) towns for some critical mass, then fill out our lands with Mongol sites.

I just looked more closely at Charis' map. I cannot believe the Mongols poached that close to our capitol. They stole some of our actively-worked tiles! Has anyone else noticed that the AI settles far more aggresively in C3C than PTW? Wow!

Regardless, I would not be surprised to see Ula flip. If it does, we should probably abandon it, as much as I hate to do that as we need the critical mass. But the other towns are just so much better for us long-term.

I disagree with Maniac about the timing of the harbor build. Those shields should go into either a GL prebuild or bowmen. The AIs are typically slow to build a harbor. So even if we do build one, it is questionable that the AIs will have one connected to their capitol in the relative near future. Yes, the harbor would allow us to get an additional food from the fish, allowing us to work another mined plains. And to that end, I would prioritize a harbor over a courthouse. But either of those builds is premature to getting the GL or enough troops to claiming cities. Remember, the sooner we get more cities, the better those towns will be for us.

Alright, I have blathered on long enough. Who is next to step up and pontificate upon our desired strategy?!?