RBC4c - Mesoamerican Aztecs (Sid)

[Ridgelake]

I know that Speaker is the captain of this team, but I wanted to open a thread to start discussion. I played some of the scenario last night (on diety) to get a feel for what we are doing. I didnt come across anything monumentally insightful, but I wanted to share some of my findings....

The Aztecs are militaristic and, more importantly, religious. The combination of these two traits will give a a lot of cheap buildings. There are numerous religous buildings. One turn anarchy is also very nice.

We will want to research or acquire masonry ASAP. It reveals where stone is located similar to the wheel for horses in the normal game. Stone is required for temples and sacrificial alters. Probably for more higher-religious buildings as well. Early temples and alters will be critical for reaching our culture goals.

Our UU is the jaguar warrior. It is 2-1-2 and becomes available with the Enslavement tech. Attack value of 2 is the best in the game for a long time. The biggest benefit of the 2 movement is the potential retreat. There is so much rugged terrain that the movement is largely negated when not on friendly roads.

The spear is the best defender for a LONG time. They should accompany any offensive thrust. They probably won't have much trouble keeping up with jags due to the rugged terrain.

The barb tribe to our south also gets the jag warrior with the enslavement tech.

I found the various new bonus tiles, luxes, and resources somewhat difficult to sort out by sight. There are a lot of differences from the standard game. This isn't a major deal, but it can cause some confusion.

A 5CC conquest seemed doable on diety. Though given the time constraints, it might be a challenge. I didnt not play far enough to get into a war with the Mayans, but the barb tribe didn't offer too much resistance. I really have no feel for the difficulty of Sid. We may want to go with 5 founded cities and allow captures. Unlike the Mayans, we will have enough land to settle, given that we are at the north end.

Order of Play:

Speaker (Starts game about Sunday)
Ridgelake (On deck)
T-Hawk
Coffee

Edit: One More Thing (TM): Tech will be our biggest problem. There is no Great Library to capture. The variant rules prohibit GPT deals. That is going to make life VERY challenging.

Also, I found that the Myans and Incans were the definite tech leaders. The lesser tribes, our potential twofer partners, were much less able to acquire techs.

Another One More Thing (TM): Taking down the Incans will be very tough in the given time limit (if at all). They are very far south. We will be forced to effectively eliminate every other civ before we can get to them. Geography dictates that we choose our opponents fairly linearly. This will allow us to focus on only one front, but may make it tough to acquire the necessary "resources" to do our required sacrificing.

[Coffee]

I played some initial turns also but on Sid. In general I agree with what you've said, however for this game, the variant rules do not apply unless we choose to adopt them. Thats because Sid settings are: cost factor 40%, AI to AI trade 300% IIRC, meaning 12 shields for a settler and 100g represents 300g when the AI trades with itself. What interested me was the start, we have the food resources to go without a granary and because of the Sid CF I think we should. A diety AI settler is 18 shields. That puts a Sid settler into position 6 shields, ~2 turns sooner. Not a small amount for the opening turns.

Just an opening thought.

[Ridgelake]

Yes, pushing 60 shields into a granary will delay our third-founded city. We get a city AND a settler to start with this game. IIRC, the speed tradeoff of building a granary or not crosses over at about the 3rd or 4th settler assuming 5 fpt. In my diety test, I did build a granary. I didnt have trouble getting out enough settlers. It was deciding where to put them so that they were best strategically placed was the problem.

If we do go with a 5CC, given that we are granted a city AND a settler from the start, maybe we should forego the granary in the capitol. It will be limited to size 6 until the Construction tech and an aqueduct (significantly into the scenario). But we will be able to skim workers from it once we get out our five cities.

Now if we decide to play the scenario without restriction, then I would advocate a granary. We hopefully should be able to build more than 3 or 4 settlers before AI fills up the land.

[Coffee]

I think getting 5 cities settled will be a challenge. I built a settler from the start and found myself aggressively settling anyway. But that may have had more to do with my settings. I still need to look at the tech tree. I only know from what I've read in the other threads. Can we build jags or is a tech req'd? I'll look that one up.

[T-hawk]

Even in a 5CC, build the granary. The reason? Workers. Sure, building the granary for only three or four settlers is a wash, but you also need at least 8 or so workers. And having the granary in place lets the city grow up to size 12 sooner when that time comes.

Anyway, I'd still be in favor of not restricting ourselves to a 5CC on Sid difficulty. AI cost factor of 40% is just insane. In percentage terms, It's as far beyond Deity as Deity is beyond Regent! A 7k cultural victory will be impossible given the double-next-civ requirement. I think unrestricted domination will be tough enough.

Up to Speaker to make the final call, though.

[Ridgelake]

I am leaning towards what T-Hawk is saying regarding restrictions (none). Sid will be tough enough without playing a variant. Yes, it will make comparisons to the diety games tougher, but I suspect that the differences will be fairly apparent.

I also feel the same way as T-Hawk about the insanity of a culture victory. It realistically requires conquest to achieve. I suspect that the diety games will come across this issue.

Coffee, we get jags with the Enslavement tech.

One thing just popped into my mind, I do not recall seeing that marketplaces were available. I may have overlooked that, though. But if so, this will obviously have major implications on the happiness front. It will also have implications on the tech front. There are improvements that act like libraries.

[Kylearan]

Ridgelake, marketplaces will be available with the currency tech, which is one of the last techs of the tech tree. It's in the second age and has terrace farming and pack animal as prerequesits, and to build a marketplace the city must have built a tambo.

-Kylearan

[Speaker]

Ok, after one of the most stressful weeks of my life--4 papers and an exam, with Trilogy Tuesday (all 3 Lord of the Rings movies as a marathon) in the way--I am back to the land of the living and will be stress free for the next month. With the patch coming out so soon (tomorrow hopefully), I think we should wait a day or two to make the start file for RBC4c. If it looks like the patch is going to be delayed until after Christmas, I may go ahead and make the file. Anyone terribly object to this? I would like for you to start us off T-Hawk, so be prepared for that. It seems that the team consensus is against 5CC and cultural victory (which is likely impossible), and that is fine by me. We may not get to build more than 5 cities anyways. So look for the start file tomorrow.

EDIT- Thread? What thread?

[T-hawk]

We've got a thread right here - no need to look for a new one tomorrow.

I'd be happy to start us off, although depending on Amazon's shipping of the game, it'll either be Tuesday, Friday, or not until next Monday. I'll let the team know when I find out.

Are we all agreed on no variant restrictions, and just pursing whatever victory we can? Domination if possible, or just scratching out whatever victory points are possible. I think this is the first serious take on a scenario on Sid, so let's see just how hard it is. I'm guessing roughly comparable to Deity in a standard game except with a much shorter time horizon to catch up once you fall behind....

[Speaker]

Originally posted by T-hawk
We've got a thread right here - no need to look for a new one tomorrow.

I suppose I meant to look for the start file rather than a thread.

[Ridgelake]

Well, I did some play testing on a scenario in Sid. I have to say that we are in for a rough go. The 40% cost factor will be a very tough nut to crack. Extrapolating my other results to this game, here are some things that I am seeing:

1) There are no artillery pieces in this scenario. So we cannot use this typical human advantage over the AI.

2) The terrain is almost uniformly rough. It will be difficult to find a "kill zone" where we can maximize the A/D differentials in our favor.

3) The units in the scenario are fairly uniform. No one has any overly-great UU.

4) It will be difficult to MOW. There are only 175 turns in the scenario. Taking 20 turn peace deals take up about 1/8 of the game.

In essence, the nature of this scenario make it such that many of the typical human advantages are eliminated or reduced. So in effect, it will come down to a war of attrition. That will be a very difficult war for us to win.

So how do we win? One thing that I considered is to race as quickly as possible for the tech that allows the 5/3/2 unit (Silent hunter, I think). All of the AIs will have this unit when we get it, but we CAN exploit this matchup to a degree. Now, it will be roughly midway through the scenario before we get to this tech, but at least we could consider an attrition war at that point.

I think it makes sense that we DONT buy workers in this scenario. We need all the gold that we can get for tech. We will get plenty of slaves once we go to war.

I did learn that we can found cities on mountains in this scenario.

Diplomacy will be critical. The AIs MUST bleed one another before sending meaningful numbers at us.

Thoughts?

[Coffee]

I did learn that we can found cities on mountains in this scenario. Really.

Are we all agreed on no variant restrictions Agreed.

Otherwise just checking in.

[T-hawk]

Anyone know the breakdown of the victory points in this scenario? (I still don't have my C3C yet.) Since that's likely what we'll end up going for...

If we do manage to get enough slaves (we can build slaves out of captured cities too, right?), maybe we can sacrifice them towardsa cultural win.

Rough terrain and no artillery do indeed make it tough to gain the tactical advantages we might usually. Only one way to find out how it'll play...

[T-hawk]

OK, my copy of Conquests just arrived into my hands (literally a minute ago), so I can start it off whenever you're ready. Speaker.

Since the scenario starts a bit faster than a full game with the extra settler, I might suggest 20 turns to start, 15 turns for the 2nd player, then 10 on from there until the 175 total.

BTW, what's our position regarding the GPT bug? Are we avoiding GPT deals entirely?

edit: (edited along with Coffee) I see the beta patch is supposed to be out within a day or two. Waiting for that would probably be wise.

[Coffee]

I favor playing as if no bugs exists. I'm hoping the patch will be out this week. Given we can settle on mountains and other comments regarding artillery, I had the idea that this scenario might not have terrain defensive bonuses. Just a thought, I can't do any checking until tonight. Good luck to T-Hawk.

[Speaker]

I would have preferred to wait for the patch, but I could sense you guys getting antsy. So let's get started!

RBC 4 - Mesoamerica - Team C - Aztecs
Non-variant Sid (as per team consensus)



We're Militaristic and Religious, starting with Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial.

(adapted from Charis)
To players - read the Civopedia carefully, the differences are enormous. There will be no irrigation, for example, until the next era. With Espionage near end-of-game comes a 5.3.2 Silent Hunter with Stealth. Enslavement can be carried out by our Jag Warriors, the Mayan Javelin Throwers, and the Incan Chasqui Scout. All are 40 shields, 2 attack. Jav has 2 def, Jaggs have 2 move, Chasqui have all-terrain-as-roads. One third of their victories will capture (enslave) a unit, to be used for sacrifice. Keep in mind the game will last 175 turns. First player will play 20 turns, then 15, then 10 turns each after that.

Reminders about some key points from the civopedia, etc.:
- The best way to amass culture is to fight win enslavement UUs and capture as many as possible, sacrificing in city with sac altar
- Later on the Silent Hunter unit rules (5.3.2!), giving a decent but limited window of opportunity for the UU's to do their thing
- Jungle is like bonus grass: 2 food, 1 shield, and can be irrigated for +1f or mined for +1s, road in 3 turns for +1 comm. No death from disease in the jungle.
- Mountains are nice, +1 food, +1 shield, irrigate for +1 food, mine for +2 shields, road for +2 comm! Hills are normal except you can irrigate for +1food. Grass/plains/desert are normal. Rainforest and ocean are useless. Do NOT clear jungles!
- Resources are very different. Strategic ones are stone, rubber, llama, exoctic birds. Jade and tobacco are new lux. Cacao plant, maize and salt on the coast are new bonus resources. Note maize is +4 food! (and we have one)
- City improvemenst are different: tambo, ball court, sacrificial altar are quite nice. Some wonders are extremely nice.
- Turn limit is 175 turns.

Team C Roster:
T-Hawk
Ridgelake
Speaker
Coffee

A couple thougts of my own:

Resources
Tenochtitlan has several bonus resources in range:
1) Maize provides 5 food, un irrigated!
2) Fruit on the hills adds one food.
3) Firs in the north
4) Exotic birds a few tiles south

Notes
We are at the top of the map. We should probably try to build south toward the Mayas and then backfill.

Tenochtitlan already has a barracks and temple and is size 3.

We have a regular warrior, a settler, and a worker.

Defensive Bonuses
Grass: 10%
Plains: 10%
Desert: 10%
Jungle: 25%
Hills: 50%
Mountains: 75%
Volcano: 80%

PS- For a good laugh, take a look at the resources required to build a radar tower.

This should be an interesting game. We'll proceed as if no bug exists and make gpt deals. If possible, we can try to spread them around or otherwise not build up just one AI civ, but first and foremost, we should be concerned with ourselves.

RBC4c

Good Luck T-Hawk!

T-Hawk--Up now
Ridgelake--On deck
Speaker--In the hole
Coffee--

EDIT- Just noticed I mixed up the order.

[T-hawk]

OK. I'm going to take tonight to familiarize myself with Conquests in general and with the tech tree of this scenario specifically, and play tomorrow. We'll see if we have a patch by tomorrow; if not, I'll start unpatched as it won't much matter at this stage anyway.

[Ridgelake]

The patch is now out, according to Charis. Lets reroll the map under the new patch

[Speaker]

I agree. T-Hawk, patch before you play and then just start the scenario anew from the main menu.

[T-hawk]

Oh boy. According to this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=72774

the patch is hardly a panacea. The FP is still messed up, though at least ring city placement and the gpt bug got proper fixes. There's a bunch of other minor problems, mostly display glitches, described there too. I think I'm still of the opinion that half a patch is better than none, but I'm far from certain...