Revernge of the Babylon Settlers - Roster C

The Scores on the Doors



Rules of the Game.

This game will be played under GOTM rules. Any contravention of these rules will be considered cheating.
Note: This includes the "Remote Palace" exploit rule introduced recently.
The one exception is that war Mobilization is ALLOWED. However, the infinite shields exploit is NOT ALLOWED.

The following tactics/exploits will result in a one time 10% deduction in final Jason score for the team and are taken from the Exploitative Tactics section from RBCiv.

1. Breaking a peace treaty within its' 20 turn duration - other than a straight peace for peace deal.

2. Intentionally breaking a trade route by pillaging or selling harbours/airports.

3. Free palace jumping.

4. RoP Rape.

5. MPP RoP abuse. Using an RoP with a Civ that has an MPP with your target Civ in order to place troops.

6. Using lots of settlers to "tunnel" into an opponents territory. With enough settlers you can get anywhere within the opponents territory you want in one turn.

7. Whipping in cities that do not have at least one content citizen.

8. Building cities right on the opponents border with the sole intention of peacefully stealing land. It's OK to use a single settler to get your arty in range of a city since this is not "peaceful". It is not OK to build a city 2 tiles from another in order to steal a resource. (This is not exactly the same as RBCiv, too bad).

9. Using workers or undefended cities for manipulating the AI's army and dragging them out of position.

10. Ship Chaining.

11. Using non-combat units to prevent the AI landing on your territory.

12. Drafting units in otherwise worthless cities and disbanding them in others to hurry production.

13. Through trading - leaving an AI opponent with fewer than two workers before 1000BC. If you buy workers, you must be able to demonstrate that the AI have at least two left before 1000BC.

14. The use of the "Big Picture" screen on the discovery of a new tech in order to change build queues or alter the number of turns of anarchy you get in government switch.

15. No palace moves at all after 10BC. This is not an RBCiv rule, but I'm making it anyway. NO EXCEPTIONS. If the AI sack your capital after 10BC you'll lose 10% of your score. Serves you right.

Everything else is allowed. So suicide galleys, ICS, RCP, pre-building, remote wars with no prospect of any warfare, using RoP to irrigate the tiles around an opponents wonder building city etc. are all OK, though not necessarily nice.

Once you have violated one of the rules listed above, there will be no further penalty for further violations.


The infamous start



>>THE GAME<<

Roster C
AdrianE
samildanach
High Desert
smackster
Shevek
Greebley

Hello

I see mab-bax made me start like he did with GOTM24 redux. I am planning a bamspeedy style opening. Any objections?

What victory condition would we like to go for? Personally I don't want conquest as that is what we just finished up in the GOTM24 redux. Given that the Babylonians are religious and scientific, I think a choice that is complimented by these two traits is nice. So space and/or cultural 100k could be interesting. Both of these will require dispatching the Persians so we still will have military campaigns.

How best to deal with the Persians? Horsemen or do you want to wait for knights?

I think in this game we will need to research a lot ourselves.

Adrian

I think military wise. Bowmen and catapults. With Bowmen we risk tripping an early GA. But if we do, we have a good shot at getting an early GL and perhaps rushing the Great Library. If we pursue a policy of appeasement perhaps we may get lucky and get to change governments before the Persians decide to put a spoke in our wheels.
As for research, do you think we will have enough resources to go down the pottery/map making route and build suicide galleys or are they not allowed anyway due to realms rules?
Bamspeedys start is fine by me.

Hi guys, Shevek reporting in to this threat.
I have not managed to look at the save or the discussion going on in the general threat yet. I really have spent all week-end to get my Civ3 fixed as nothing worked. Had to re-install the whole lot in the end
But it seems to be working fine now and I will look at the save and post my thoughts soon.
Just a warning, I never played GOTM14 before and am therefore quite ignorant of the map and so on.

Bamspeedy did a very impressive job at this game. But I think we should maybe avoid to just replay someone elses game.
I have (on purpose) not read any account for GOTM 14 apart from Bamspeedy's, of course, as this is a classic.
It's hard to get foreknowledge out of the head. But I am looking forward to our very own game and strategy.

My suggestion would be as follows:
* Found on the spot. To be on the coast is good for the capital but maybe not crucial in this game. We are 1 turn ahead this way which might prove crucial. Also we do not waste the 10 shield from a forest chop.

* Build order warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, granary.

* Research on Iron working at min. As we know we will meet Xerxes and he is very likely to have Pottery for sale by this time. If we can locate iron early we might be able to deny this recource to him or at least make sure that we have our own. It might also be a good trading object.

* Careful with hut popping. I think we should leave nearby huts well alone until barbs spewing forth would not pose a danger to our cities any more. Loosing our early warriors might cripple us (let alone a sacking) and the risk of getting barbs on Deity is quite high.

* Set Babylon up as settler factory.

I am not sure yet as to what victory type to aim for. Apart from cultural victories the very early play style would be quite similiar for all types. Maybe we just wait and see how it developes before deciding.
In general both Space ship and 100K sounds fine. 100K will need some early temples and might hamper expansion a bit.

Hello All.

I like the idea of founding on the spot. As stated, saves a turn and, as well, settlers won't be slowed by crossing the river. If the river comes into play as a defensive edge we didn't use, we have probably already lost.

Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Granary works for me. Not so sure I'd rely upon Persia to trade us Pottery, though.

I agree finding the iron is important. The Immortal is simply too much to handle in AA and finding the Iron/taking out Persia is the key to the game. Perhaps WC at max to get the Archer, which is a fine unit in this game. I wonder if perhaps an early Golden Age wouldn't be so bad. We tend to focus on the absolute gain from a GA which impies waiting until you are developed. Perhaps the RELATIVE advantage gained is equally as useful.

Yes, avoid popping nearby huts...we can get them later when we can handle all of the possible consequences.

Cultural 100K sounds fine to me, although we can decide that after we reduce Persia to a manageable size and see what the world is like.

I also agree that we need to have clarification on the allowed rules vis-a-vis RBCiv. Exploitive taboo and dastardly OK or does either incur a 10% penalty? If ANY RBCiv violation incurs a 10% one-time penalty, then maybe we want to play completely exploitive!

The rest of the civs in the game don't figure to be research powerhouses...we will be the powerhouse so I'm not sure what the Great Library will do for us. I like to settle as much land as possible as a first priority and only do Wonders as the opportunity presents.

Originally posted by HighDesert

Not so sure I'd rely upon Persia to trade us Pottery, though.

Click to expand...

I admit this is a gamble. It can pay off handsomely or fail.
I believe the AI likes to trade techs in the beginning and they don't mind taking money for it With research at min we should have some money to offer and in despotism it does us not much good (apart from upgrading) anyway.
But I will be happy to go with whatever the group decides,of course

I wonder if perhaps an early Golden Age wouldn't be so bad. We tend to focus on the absolute gain from a GA which impies waiting until you are developed. Perhaps the RELATIVE advantage gained is equally as useful.

Click to expand...

I'm with you here all the way. The early game seems to be so crucial that we should not discard an early GA in despotism. It let's us use our UU when they are strongest and before Persia has theirs. And even one settler more churned out and a few units built faster should give us a better chance of winning this.

I also agree that we need to have clarification on the allowed rules vis-a-vis RBCiv. Exploitive taboo and dastardly OK or does either incur a 10% penalty? If ANY RBCiv violation incurs a 10% one-time penalty, then maybe we want to play completely exploitive!

Click to expand...

Mad-bax promised on the general thread to post some clarification later today.

we will be the powerhouse so I'm not sure what the Great Library will do for us. I like to settle as much land as possible as a first priority and only do Wonders as the opportunity presents.

Click to expand...

Again, couldn't agree more.


Edit: spelling

Adrian: Sorry to make you start again. I didn't realise. Though if you follow Bamspeedys opening you have no excuse for not being click perfect.

Guys

I'll play and post this evening. I'm just crunching some numbers to see if there is a "better" solution. (ie build on the spot as some have suggested).

Adrian

Excellent! AdrianE. Bamspeedys article is an old one - while still very good. It may be possible to improve upon his start in light of current knowledge. Good Luck!

checking in.

Well I have spent some time crunching numbers. Bamspeedy's approach is best over the first 30 turns.

If we settle on the spot, we lose access to the whale. It is a 2F,1S,2$ square. The shield from the whale is vital in providing enough shields for a 4 turn settler factory. The best we can do is a 5 turn settler factory until turn 36 or so. It adds up to a whole settler worse off! Additionally the first squares we want to improve are on the other side of the river. That costs us worker turns when we move the worker.

I also examined the effects of modifying bamspeedy's approach and irrigating the wheat first. It ends up slightly worse off as there is wastage on growth or production.

If you are really interested in the gory details I have an excel spreadsheet.

Adrian

Hey guys... You have a new team member. ME

Hope you are OK with this, but either way it has to happen I think.

To business.
IMO "If it aint broke don't mend it". The only change I would make to Bamspeedys approach would be to consider getting a settler out around turn 17 or 18 before the granary. I think having a second town on the map early may make us look stronger to the AI, and it may allow us to claim a site that we would otherwise not.

Just checking in, hadn't realised the thread was up until just now.

Smackster

Opening moves

4000BC - worker to cows, settler to coast
3950BC - worker irrigate, found babylon, research set to pottery at 100%, order a warrior
3900BC - nothing
3850BC - nothing
3800BC - nothing
3750BC - worker set to road, babylon warrior to warrior
3700BC - warrior 1 (w1) goes N
3650BC - w1 -> N set slider to 0.8.2, pottery due in 14
3600BC - worker to bonus grassland, w1 -> N, Babylon warrior to colossus
3550BC - worker set to mine, w1 ->NE, w2 -> NW
3500BC - w1 -> NE, w2 -> NW, IBT borders expand
3450BC - w1 -> NE, w2 -> NW
3400BC - w1 -> E, w2 -> N
3350BC - w1 -> N, w2 - NE
3300BC - w1 ->N, w2 -> NE
3250BC - worker starts on a road, w1->E, w2->N
3200BC - w1->E, w2-> N spots persian border
3150BC - w1->N, w2->N, contact with Persia (they are up Masonry and Warrior Code and he won't sell), we learn pottery, research to alphabet at minimum
3100BC - worker to wheat, w1 -> NE, w2 - >W, no deal possible with Persia
3050BC - worker irrigate, w1 - NE, w2 -> N, slider to 6.1.3, no deal possible
3000BC - w1 -> N, w2->N , still no deal

Persia just wouldn't sell any techs to us. I offered 10G, pottery and 4GPT for warrior code and it was "I doubt they'll accept". I found 3 goody huts but popped none of them.

Score is 98 at 3000BC.

I suggest that the worker push our roads North to aid in settler movement.

The zipped save
>SAVE<

PS - welcome aboard mad-bax

I have decided to leave the rosters as they are. Although they are perhaps not perfectly balanced, the hassle involved in changing them is just too much for me to put up with.

When I set up the rosters I thought I had done a reasonable job and had tried to give people the chance to play with people they hadn't played with before. I put myself on team B because I thought it was perhaps weaker than the other two (not that I'd improve that, just that I though it only fair I didn't put myself on the strongest team). You see.. even trying to discuss it is difficult.

Anyway, we'll stay with the original rosters. Time will tell how badly I arranged it.

AdrianE, I always seem to be a little light on defense early...I like your style!

All,

What will be our strategy WRT Persia. Conquest ASAP? Appeasement? Seems to me like we need to get him soonest and keep Iron/Immortal out of his hands.

How soon can we get after Xerses? What will be our research goal in support of the overall goal? What are build priorities?

I'll pick up the save tonight. I'll carry on with the Bamspeedy start if thats all right.

I guess I stand corrected with regards to buying pottery from X.

The start looks good to me.
Let's continue with Bamspeedy's style then, he is the master, after all.

As I see it what we need in the short term:
a worker farm
several warrior factories (high shields for military production)

There is a nice spot just North of us with 2 floodplain wheat and a game woods square in an expanded radius. That's where the 1st settler should go to stop the persians from beating us to it. It has the potential to be a worker farm.

WRT Persia, I think we grab all available territory first. If you want to crush Persia build gormdragan a horseman army. He used them to good effect in the GOTM 24 SG. Horsemen are our best option to deal with immortals as the can run away.

We need to get the 2 available luxuries hooked up as well.

Adrian