RBC13I - Belligerent Burgundians (Emperor)

Here are screenshots of our start position. It is so spread out, I have it divided into 3 sections. Here is a reference that gives you a bit of the history of the Treaty of Verdun (that led to this predicament):
Treaty of Verdun (Wikipedia)

NORTHWEST


SOUTHWEST


FAR SOUTH


Please review the notes on the scenario from Charis here:

Charis' Notes

A few things to consider.

1. Where do we build our core? Up north in the Low Countries near the capital? It is going to get very cramped there. Or in Northern Italy where we have uncontested room for growth? If so, we’d have to rebuild the capital. An ugly thought.

2. We have one luxury already hooked up in the south (Wines) and another (Wool) close by. We have a harbor in Venice and another in Dorestad (even though we don’t know the tech for those yet). To get luxuries to the north, do we sail a Curragh around Spain or just build a road across the Alps?

3. What is our overall strategy? Try to steal another relic from the Franks or Germans and return 2 to Jerusalem? What do we do about our frustratingly strung out position?

Starting Save Game

Looks like our team is:
Gobi Bear
DeceasedHorse
Kylearan
Balastulin (?)

Please check in when you can. I'm okay if someone else wants to move first. MM'ing cities isn't my strong point, so it might make sense for someone else to take the first round.

Yep I'm here!

I'm not an horrendously experienced Emperor but find I play better in SG's so let's bring it on (and help me out occasionally)

Greetings. Can I join in this SG? I am realatively new to SG's but have played the Middle Ages conquest many times. (Monarch +) I have some experience with the Burgundians, and have found that the first and most important thing is to get iron. You start with no iron, and have to settle to it. A temple and then HRE prebuild in Dorestad is very effective to get to early knights, and then use the 5 attack knights on 2 defense spearmen. When I did this, I was at 30,000 VP before anyone else had pikemen, or even 20,000 Vp and could just coast out. Anyway its an idea.

Sure, welcome aboard, romeothemonk. That makes 3 of us now.

Getting the iron south of Basel argues for the "cut a road over the Alps" approach to linking up our kingdom.

Ahhh, come on Gobi Bear. Couldn't we just 'rediscover' all those roads that I built in the Rise of Rome scenario?

Checkin' in.

My thoughts:

1st priority is to aquire Iron and setting up to make a run for the HRE. We will almost certainly want to relocate our palace unless we are able to conquer a large amount of French or German land, and the only practical way to do that is to rush one with a leader. Northern Italy is the best land we have. Since the HRE counts as a Heroic Epic, that will certainly help. Our eventual target will probably be Germany, since they are initially weaker than the French but have better production, plus they have a relic we need.

Checking in!

Wow we do have a lot of cities. And wow, are they spread out.

With Wurzburg and Strassburg (German) and two Frankish cities near Aix-la-Chapelle and Marseilles having severe cultural problems, this could get interesting. This could either provoke flips, or war. And if either of the German or Frank cities get a temple before we do, the situation could reverse! Question, is it worthwhile to build temples there, or are we razing the offending cities anyway?

Unlike other civs, I believe we cannot afford an ultra-early war. We are very spread out, need to connect our cities and our resources first and need to make some land-grab as well. But while doing this we definately should be ready to counter any surprise attacks, especially from Germany. And with their nice lands (lots of 2/2 forests!) and their relic, they sure are a nice target after the initial phase!

We should definately focus on expanding around our capital, to get some productive cities to go to war later. And I'm not a friend of using leaders to move the palace; not with the über-armies of C3C!

What do we plan to research? I agree that heading for the HRE great wonder (available with the "Western Church" tech, a first-tier tech in the next age) to get to knights ASAP would be nice, and should be no problem on this diff. Two options to get there:

A) Research the two required techs from this age and the Western Church for ourselves

B) Since initial research is very slow anyway due to our financial situation, make a 40 turns min-sci run on Norse Tradition to get to blacksmiths (factories!) later, and let the other AIs research the required techs for us, buying them.

I really like the blacksmiths, and thus would favor option B). What do you think? Caveat: I have no idea about the feasibility of buying the techs in this scenario: What it would cost, and if our economy can support that, but it should be possible.

But regardless of how we get there: Knights need horses, which we don't have! So depending on our initial scouting, we probably need to wage war before the knight era to get some, keep that in mind.

Regarding the level of difficulty: Wasn't this supposed to be on monarch? Of course I would be fine with any diff, just asking because Balastulin voiced his concern. (And Balastulin, don't worry if this will be on emperor: You're right, SGs normally feel like one level of difficulty easier than they really are, because of team synergies, more micromanaging happening etc.)

And welcome romeothemonk: Nice to have someone on the team who has experience with this scenario!

-Kylearan

Oh, one more thing: Dorestad should probably build a curragh ASAP, to make contact with the Cordic civs, with England, and the Celts.

There are horses at the Frankish city of Ghent. A quick temple, followed by the HRE in Dorestad always flips Ghent. Actually, when I play as the Franks it flips about turn 50-60 regardless. I would actually not build a curragh, as it is a wast of production. The Nordic civs, and England will all sail through our waters in the first 10 turns. The only civ we really need to contact will be the Poles. (Biggest threat to HRE, and best ally vs the Germans) We can send an excess archer through to meet them early. As for other contacts, or a map, I almost always play "blind" until Map Making, and then trade like crazy for everything. I also am a fan of tech route B. I want to see how to do massive tech brokering and for VP we need to open up all the Tech trees at one point or another. After the first tech tree, stealing is much better than researching.
Thanks for letting me join guys.

I'm all for the "40-turn research Norse Tradition" plan. Looking at the save, it doesn't look like we can do better than 32 turns on Horseback Riding at the start anyway. Going min research for Norse Tradition will help us build cash too.

Keep in mind, Kylearan, that we START with Western Church. It just doesn't show up in the Science Advisor until we enter that age. So I vote for HBR and Castle Building right after Norse Tradition. We'll be able to start the HRE wonder as soon as Castle Building is complete.

Oh, and I was the one who petitioned Claris for a bump up in difficulty to Emperor. I was the original designer on this scenario, so I had enough inside knowledge that I felt we could handle it on something higher than Monarch. Hope that's okay with you all.

Few comments:

Kylerean, at least you could do me the favor and type 'Würzburg', not 'Wurzburg' .

Emperor should be fine.

A quick temple, followed by the HRE in Dorestad always flips Ghent

Click to expand...

Don't count on that. Though my personnel experience is identical (even with a turn 2 Temple in Ghent, when I played Franks - after several trials, I decided the only way for Franks to prevent flipping is attacking the Burgundians in the very first turns), in the LK series game it never flipped. You can count on Dublin, but Ghent is a maybe.

And to answer any questions about Tech costs etc on Emperor, read this:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=79131

Ah, didn't know we "start" with Western Church - at first I believed this to be an error in the introduction message. Good to know!

Regarding the level of difficulty, I have no problems with emperor and would feel comfortable up to Deity, but since there had been some people looking for easier games recently, I thought I should mention it. But if it's okay for the rest, that's great!

Kylerean, at least you could do me the favor and type 'Würzburg', not 'Wurzburg'

Click to expand...

Fair enough. But I guess if I talk about "Köln", "Nürnberg" etc. in SGs, other people might get confused so I use the silly Anglicized names instead. Saves a lot of typing, too.

-Kylearan

I'm fine with Emperor, I just haven't played it (successfully) too often and am looking forward to the challenge.

I'm hoping my monarch days will soon be over...

[plasma]

So who's starting and what's the lineup now that we have Romeothemonk joining the Burgundian court?

Seems to me that connecting the cities is number one priority, though a good dose of N Italian settling wouldn't go amiss.

I have a crazy week here ... would appreciate someone else volunteering to go first. Let me know if this is a good/bad week for you and I will set up the lineup accordingly.

This isn't too bad a week, but I'll only be free from Friday (remember I'm at least 15+ hours ahead of America, so it's 1055 on 17 March here.)

Additionally, I do not want to start it off.

1. Read some of the other Middle Ages SGs. Lot's of good info being shared all around. I know several of you are playing in the other ones. Very cool!

2. We don't want to chop forests. With bonuses there in this scenario, it is always better to keep them intact.

3. Don't build Granaries, unless you have a city that doesn't need an Aqueduct. Aqueducts require a Quarry and the tech from the Byzantine path; we won't be seeing them for a long time. I don't think the maintenance on a Granary is worth it when we are capped at size 6.

4. The entry techs to each flavor path are expensive; research those at 40 turn min research. We've agree to go for Norse Tradition first.

I see Kylearan and Balastulin have been up in other Middle Ages games. I propose the following roster then:

1. DeceasedHorse <- UP FIRST
2. romeothemonk <- on deck
3. Gobi Bear
4. Balastulin
5. Kylearan

That sound okay?

Rome and Venice can crank out Settlers soon. Founding new cities in N. Italy in the Po River valley west of Venice can give us Iron and some great land. Our future base.

Go for it DeceasedHorse!

I appreciate being last in the roster, thanks.

I recommend reading the discussion about the chance of building the HRE that sprang up in the Franks SG - this might influence our first turns quite a bit, i.e. do we start a prebuild for the HRE nearly immediately? Where do we want to build it? Possible locations would be Cologne, Dorestad or Aix-la-Chapelle.

Aix-la-Chapelle has a wheat for fast growth, a bonus grass and lots of hills for shield production, but is stuck at size six.

Dorestad has, after a temple expansion, a cow for faster growth, can grow past size 6 and has two bonus grass and hills as well. Disadvantage would be that it's very vulnerable against Viking sneak attacks, and that it cannot build a curragh for scouting/contacts if we prebuild there.

Cologne has only slow growth, but has lots of nice forests and two bonus grass for very good shield potential, and can grow past size 6 as well. Additionally, it's closer to the capital and thus won't suffer so much from corruption, so my vote would be an immediate temple followed by a palace has an HRE prebuild there. The slow growth can be compensated for by merging one or two workers into the city once the most important tiles have been improved.

What do you think?

-Kylearan

I do think the teams are overrating the benefits of scouting in this scenario, since you can't trade maps for a long time. So I would be okay with skipping the Curragh if that helped us get the HRE.

I agree that those cities up north need a Temple quickly; starting the HRE right after that sounds like a good plan. At least we are only on Emperor, so we should have a bit more breathing room to get it done.