RBC-14F Bloodthirsty Maya (Deity)

akots

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RBC14F. The Bloodthirsty Maya (Deity).

Welcome to RBC-14F. This thread will tell the story of the Mayan team of the Realms Beyond Civilization Conquests SG series playing the Age of Discovery Conquest scenario. We, the Maya, have lived in our home world for thousands of years, built cities in the middle of the jungle, battled with other tribes, watched the stars and the moon, bowed to the sun and carried on with our own mysterious life. Some tell that we even met some aliens who taught us something about mathematics and astronomy. Alas, the knowledge is lost generations ago. We know only few advances mostly barbaric: Craftsmanship (Spearmen and iron resource), Masonry (Palace and Outpost), Pottery (Granary), Warrior Code (Archers and horse resource), Ceremonial Burial (Temple cost modified to 40 shields), Enslavement (JT which is our UU 2.2.1, 30 shields), Ritual Sacrifice (Sacrificial Altar with cost 40 shields and 10 cpt!). We are currently in Despotism and the only available option for government in the near future is Blood Cult which has tile penalty similar to Despotism, somewhat lower corruption and huge unit support (8 for each settlement regardless of size). It also requires a corresponding tech to research.

Here is the starting position:


We have only one city which is, fortunately, our capital Chichen Itza. At start, we get 4 regular JT, worker, and settler. We are agricultural (which is useless atm because CI is not on the river) and industrious. CI has Palace (1 cpt), Barracks, Granary, Temple (2cpt), Marketplace, Courthouse (?? We better disband it ASAP), Ball Court (to play the ball game; however, we don’t know how to play that, apparently have to rediscover some alien knowledge; 8cpt), and Altar (10 cpt). We also start with 50cp and all improvements bring us 21 cpt. Considering that single city cultural victory requires 4k cp, we will win in about 180 turns. Since the game lasts only 150 turns and it is Deity after all, just sitting and waiting would not help, we need to get some more culture. The easiest way would be to sacrifice some slaves which we get when our JT are victorious against another unit with probability of about 33%. Please also note that for this scenario there are only two victory conditions: VP and Cultural victories. VP is out of the question for the moment (situation might change during the game) and we better beeline for cultural victory.

The game would not be that difficult if not for these white people. We know they exist (pieces of lost knowledge) but have not seen them yet. They arrive in big boats and are very scary. Our ancestors also warned that they have two powerful units which are more beasts than man: some species called knight and another species called MDI (knowledge of this abbreviation is lost). These units can attack our cities and our units directly from their ships without disembarking on the shores first. These beasts are deadly and can slaughter our defenders in no time. Alas, but the knowledge of mathematics eluded our current Great Instigator and therefore we cannot build catapults which is a big disadvantage.
 
Considering the overall situation, it would be desirable to start some discussion between our instigators, pagans, cultists, and sacrificial butchers on the following topics:

1) Do we kill our sacrificial slaves first and then excise their hearts or we first excise their hearts and then they die on their own?

2) Do we try to peacefully co-exist with our Aztec neighbors or try to eliminate them early?

3) Do we research or leave it to the white people?

4) What to build in CI?

5) How to play that ball game? It is just puzzling our fellow Mayans.

6) Do we plan to switch to Blood Cult?

7) How to survive without catapults?

8) Do we focus on JT or build some archers to upgrade to Q-bowmen (3.1.1) which also have the enslave ability? Then, we would need to research 2 techs: Blood Cult and Body Ornamentation.

9) Where is the gold of our ancestors? Who has hidden in and where? We have only a handful of coins left in the treasury.

10) Should we befriend and welcome the white people? Or meet them with our spears, javelins, stones, and rubber balls (which we don’t know how to make yet)?

11) Where to build our next city?

12) What is the order of players in the roster?

13) Smoke-Jaguar is also puzzling. Jaguars don’t smoke because they cannot hold the pipe in their paws. Can someone explain this?

14) Early Golden Age or late GA?

15) Apparently, we might want to farm some barbarians for extra slaves but on Deity it may be tough. AIs would slaughter them all early. Any ideas?

16) Connect luxuries first or improve the terrain? When to start clearing the jungle?

17) And the last one. I surely have missed something important. Just cannot remember what exactly.

If I can suggest the order of players in the roster:

1. Aggie.
2. Kylearan
3. akots
4. Rubberjello

Do we play with 1.15 or upgrade to 1.22? For me both are OK.
 
Aggie said:
... suggest to be 3rd or 4th up ...

Yes, starting is a tough job in this game. First 10 turns are crucial IMHO. If we don't do it right, some bad thing can happen. That is the reason I put myself 3rd... :)
 
Smokin' Jello checking in!
Any patch version is OK with me.
I've actually never played this Conquest yet with a native Civ, so I don't have any experience to contribute. All I know is that the Aztecs are darn close to us. (Too close!), and that some of the Native Wonders are really good, but that the tech research rate for them is pretty high. The total lack of roads will need to be addressed, (and is a beef of mine with this scenario...c'mon! These Civs (except the Iroquios) had an extensive road network!)
 
OK, 3 pagans out of 4 reported for duty and Kylearan lost somewhere in the jungle. May the stars help him to find the road to the temple.

I'll try to be short and would just post answers to the questions asked without comments.

1) Apparently, does not matter.
2) IMO, better to leave Aztec alone atm.
3) Research may be difficult. Actually, if going for cultural victory, we may be fine with only American techs. Except catapults...
4) Settler? Worker?
5) All I know is that the ball was very heavy and there were many injuries during the game.
6) Very unlikely in the near future.
7) ????
8) My vote goes for JT. No archers.
9) Aztec have stolen it!
10) Keeping peace with Europeans is essential for our survival.
11) On spice? On jungle at distance 3-SE from CI? On plains distance 4.5-S?
12) See above.
13) Well, it is no more puzzling than smoking Rubberjello.
14) We better wait and build a few cities before going to GA.
15) Need to scout the area and try to surround a camp so that AI cannot get to it.
16) Improve terrain certainly. And start chopping the jungle ASAP.
 
2) I think that no one priority is getting a few cities and an army of units that can enslave.
3) Min science on Blood Cult for the moment? Max science is -9 gpt and only shaves off 11 turns. Min science is 80%. Also not adding up... Maybe we shouldn't reasearch at all for the moment?
4) I would go for a settler
5) We have a ball court that we adore. But we don't know the tech? It happened before that meso-american civs ran into ancient cities... :)
6) Indeed this is very unlickely.

8) JT for me too.

10) I agree: Keeping peace with Europeans is essential for our survival.
11) On spice sounds OK, but I dson't know what else is close by...

12) I'm a but busy atm, but I can see what I can do...

14) I agree: We better wait and build a few cities before going to GA.
15) I agree: Need to scout the area and try to surround a camp so that AI cannot get to it.
16) I agree: Improve terrain certainly. And start chopping the jungle ASAP.
 
Checking in! Sorry for not checking in earlier, but it's a busy weekend for me. I'll have yet to take a deeper look at the scenario rules, so I won't be able to contribute something meaningful to the discussion until tomorrow.

It would be nice if we could play this under patch 1.15.

-Kylearan
 
Aggie, it might be a good idea if you go ahead and start. We can apparently move all our JT exploring and hunting since this Ball Court makes all our citizens in CI content and we don't need MP ATM. No rush, please take your time, since one of our greatests instigators (Kylearan) is lost in the jungle looking for gems or rubber and if he does not show up soon, we'll have to dispatch a smoking exotic bird with a letter to help him find the way.

We'll play patch 1.15 then. Please note when you start the game that aggression level is set to "normal" which is the default.

Sacrificial butcher roster:
1. Aggie -> UP preparing the concoction of various exotic plants to make our javelins paralyze the enemies so that they can be enslaved
2. Kylearan -> on the way to the temple (cross-posted, already there)
3. akots ->
4. Rubberjello ->

OK, we're all set and ready to shed some blood...
 
Yes. Settler south first. Then concentrate on more settlers/workers for the foreseeable future. If we head North past the Aztecs, we would have a greater chance of hitting some Barbs (for slaves), but that would be a long walk home. Be aware that Desert in this scenario is completely impassible! I vote the main thrust of our JTs to go into South America.
City placement: We are much safer from amphibious assaults if we settle West coast places in Central America rather then East Coast. I know this isn't as much of an issue with the AI, but I just started a PBEM of this scenario, and that aspect of their (European) units in the hands of a human opponent scares the jello out of me! :lol:
 
Turn 0 (1490 AD) I send our JT's out exploring and our settler moves south. Science at 0%. We need the money imho. Our city starts with a settler.

Turn 1 (1491 AD) One JT revels gold, silver and BG tiles. Our settler goes there.

Turn 2 (1492 AD) :sleep:

Turn 3 (1493 AD) Copan founded on plains. Starts with JT.

Turn 4-9 (1494-1499 AD) We meet the Aztecs, not more more to report.

Turn 10 (1500 AD) We see our first barbs camp!

I couldn't make a lot more of the turnlog. Not a lot to do atm... This will change I'm sure.
 

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Cool, we have now 2 cities and are at peace with all except barbarians.
Roster of rubberball players for today's match with Aztec:
1. Aggie -> concoction ready, just played
2. Kylearan -> UP, lead our people to new cities in the jungle!
3. akots -> meditating, smoking, and asking advice from the gods
4. Rubberjello ->

It all looks very reasonable ATM. IMHO, we can capture some slaves in South America and use them in the core to build roads and chop the jungle.
 
Got it.

I have no idea yet where we plan to take this game, though. From Akots' initial post I gather that we don't play under any variant rule as originally proposed in the initial thread like "no cultural buildings allowed", right? Personally, I'd like to go for a single city cultural victory - lots of sacrificing of other American natives before any other civ will win via VPs. That doesn't sound too hard, though, but then I have never played this scenario and have no idea what the European AIs will do.

-Kylearan
 
I would go for a single city win without a variant rule. I also can't tell if this is very difficult or not. I trust Charis on this that the Maya are the most difficult American tribe to win it with. Deity will make it harder to research and to win battles vs the barbarians. I guess that that is the difficulty of this level. Besides the fact that the AI will be able to research and expand much faster of course.

It looks to me that we should build a couple of cities purely for military purposes. Our capital can be used settlers initially and then for cultural buildings.

I regard these RBC SG's as an ideal way to check out the Conquests. It's really 'let's see what happens' for me.
 
IMHO, the game we are playing as Maya is extremely difficult. Lets try to win somehow just without exploits. Variant or no variant, chances to snatch some wonder is slim (but is worht a shot) and other culutral buildings are of little help (2-3 cpt). Apparently, single city clutural victory is more reasonbale. We are in poor position to build very many cities in this game yet. However, things may change. We never know...
 
We have neglected research the first 10 turns, which I think was a mistake (not sure, though... ;) ). I don't think we should purely rely on the AIs to do research for us, because I have no idea how cheap or expensive techs will be to buy. So I like to do our own research - question is, what? We don't need Horseback Riding, as it's only useful for the Iroquois for their UU. If we aim for a single city cultural victory, we don't need Ball Games either, because Chichen Itza has a ball court already.
That leaves the question wether to go the Blood Cult - Body Ornamentation route, or to research the required techs for this age. The two optional techs have great wonders who give huge amounts of culture associated with them, while the required techs only have the usual low-culture buildings: colisseum and library, then cathedral and university in the next age.
Since the two optional techs provide three great wonders to build, I decide to go for blood cult, although this takes 78 turns on break-even and 44 on max science to research at the moment. But even on Deity, we might have a chance for one of these wonders, although we have no real prebuild.

I change Copan from JT to temple: It can be whipped in three turn and will bring in an additional BG tile, which is worth it IMHO, because it has no good tile to work once it's size two, and our workers will need a long time to chop down all the jungle.

(I) The barb camp loses one of its archers to someone we cannot see.

(1) 1501AD: Chichen Itza settler -> spear. Cool, our worker is able to build a road in one turn only!

(I) The barb camp loses another archer.

(2) 1502AD: We dispose the barb camp, netting us 25g (but no slave). Behind it, we meet the Incas.

(I) The Aztecs throw us out of their country, then found Tlatelolco south of their capital. bringing our scouting JT into their territory immediately again.

(3) 1503AD: Copan whips the temple.

(I) The Aztecs ask us politely to remove our troops. :crazyeye:

(4) 1504AD: Copan temple -> barracks. One of our JTs fortifies on the isthmus to deny the Incan scouts the way into our territory.

(I) The Portuguese complete the Sistine Chapel.

(5) 1505AD: MM Chichen to not waste any shields on the spear.

(6) 1506AD: Thanks to the founding of Tlatelolco earlier, our scout will make it through Aztec land to scout. :)

(I) ...the scout gets booted, but to a very strange location. Because desert is impassable, he is thrown onto a two-plains "island" behind the desert! :saiyan: He is trapped now, unable to move anywhere. This is stupid! :wallbash:



(7) 1507AD: Chichen spear -> worker. I fortify our trapped JT for the time being to make our military advisor happy, but we should disband him once we exceed our unit limit. Stupid, stupid, stupid... :vomit:

(I) The French complete Leo's.

(8) 1508AD: :sleep:

(I) Spain completes Copernicus.

(9) 1509AD: Our settler is still on the move into South America so that later settlers can backfill the lands he passes by. MM Chichen to finish worker next turn.

(10) 1510AD: Chichen worker -> settler.



There's a nice fresh-water location with gems and iron our settler can settle, either on the hill on the coast, or if we fear amphibious attacks, on the inland hill one tile east of his current position. Thanks to the reduced corruption in this scenario, this should become a nice city. The spear trailing behind should close the isthmus again.



Speaking of corruption, we should indeed sell the courthouse in Chichen, I forgot to do so, sorry. Our research should soon speed up once the jungle on the luxuries is cleared and the tiles are worked by Chichen.

Roster:
Aggie
Kylearan
akots <-- UP NOW
Rubberjello <-- on deck


-Kylearan
 
I got it and will play soon. If a variant can be suggested: we must save our JT from his cumbersome position. Just build a boat and pick him up. :)

IMHO, it would be nice to have as many cities as possible on that small chunk of land which we got. Well, it is our home country, after all. Then, build, rush, but somehow get a decent force of JT and may be Q-bowmen later on. Declare war on Aztec or Inca and get as many slaves on the defensive as possible. Roughly, we might need an SOD of about 20 units.
 
I tried to load the save, it loaded but is somewhat corrupt. Something wrong with civilopedia and dates and F4 screen. May be it is a problem of my "rapid" switch to 1.15 (only root dir and text folder) and I have to overwrite the directory with Conquests scenarios as well. Will play tomorrow then, need to find a zip disk.

A few comments. I'm not questioning anything just asking questions. :)

However. We are researching something due in 60 turns. IMHO, Europeans are scheduled to arrive every moment and we need some cash to trade with them some techs. Some of these techs may be useful. Actually, tech prices in this scenario in European tree are relatively acceptable even on Deity. First trading round is critical and we might want to try to get from it as much as we can. It would be nice to have trebuchets eventually. Second, we are running with the settler very far away to block Inca apparently from spreading over Panama canal. But what about Aztec? Our capital is undefended. What if they decide to go after it with a couple of JW? IMHO, at least one or better two JT should have stayed at home blocking the Aztec. Third, what if some European settler decides to settle around the infamous Panama city or Nicaragua? How to proceed in this case? Fourth, our JT are exploring very far to the south. Are they going to find something there? It is very unlikely that there are live barbarians left. Inca had a fair number of their UU and probably slaughtered them all.

I would just remind that the game is very difficult and our chances to win are not so high. Probably less than of the Sid team. So, if we discuss what is next, it might improve our chances of success. If we have no idea about something it is a good idea to ask than rush forward. We better discuss what to do because at present, the situation is very unfavorable and it would be surprizing if we can survive for the next 10 or 20 turns if Monte decides he wants to party in CI and sacrifice some bloody Mayan pagans and instigators. In my limited experience with this scenario, all American civilizations are very aggressive even at "normal" level, so it is quite possible that some JW are already dispatched to take on our ball court and temple.

Survival plan:

1) Whip at least 2 JT ASAP in any case.
2) Stop research completely, get ready for trade session. Trade whatever techs are possible.
3) Return with scouts back to protect our cities.
4) Make a small gpt (1gpt) gift to Monte.
5) If Monte declares, try to survive by joining workers and whipping some more defenders.
6) If Monte does not declare, try to chop the forest on spices and build next city there. Rush temple and barracks and walls if the tech is available. (In this scenario, forest has to be chopped before settling on it as well as jungle has to be cleared IIRC.)

Please-please all lets discuss this.
 
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